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Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

elmoret wrote:
Dennis wrote:

If you want the extruder to point down, why not just tilt the whole thing up 90 degrees?  The only thing that would have to change is the input hopper.  I am sure someone could design one that worked coming out and up -- perhaps at a 45 or 60 degree angle?

That would mean you no longer have gravity helping you feed the pellets.

Coming out at a 45 degree angle still lets you have 1/2 of gravity working for you.  60 degrees, even more.

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Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

cckens wrote:
mmorning wrote:

cckens.. not sure I follow what you mean.

Are you referring to the grooves in the middle picture on Ian post.

Here's what I mean
http://www.kenzden.com/download/grooves.jpg

I'm thinking that they are part of the gear system that allows the guide to go from left to right to left.  I may be wrong, but until Ian can take that puppy apart, we may just need to take it into consideration.

I am with you now.. I havnt even looked at the part yet. I just want to see if I turn it by hand will it go all the way to the end and then reverse directions. ill def be adding something like that later on.

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Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

I am admittedly only an EE student, so not very strong on mechanical theory, but has anyone looked at motorized fishing line winders? The look like the work similarly. The only problem I see there is they twist the line...

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Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

The fishing reel bail guide concept is great. I think the best way to print this part would be to use a steel wire embedded in the
shaft in the pattern of the worm gear pattern (criss crossed in both directions with the turn around on each end). There is a thingverse model of the steel wire worm gear concept.

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Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

Nimikin wrote:

I am admittedly only an EE student, so not very strong on mechanical theory, but has anyone looked at motorized fishing line winders? The look like the work similarly. The only problem I see there is they twist the line...

The regular  fishing reel is just like the hose winder and does not twist the line unlike a spin casting reel.

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Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

Does a bail guide work like this patent? http://www.google.com/patents/US3889896 … mp;f=false

The spool is fixed, and an arm rotates around it.   There is a wheel that rolls on the side of the reel, turning a worm gear.  The worm gear turns an oval gear that moves the guide sideways one hose width per rotation and back again.

What should I google to find details on how a regular bail less fishing reel guides the line?  Most of what I'm finding assumes you know how a fishing reel works and covers other topics.

1,332 (edited by Nimikin 2013-04-11 05:51:05)

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

Ian, check out traverse winding guides. (You could use that second dc motor to turn a threaded rod with a guide on it. Probably could use that ardunio to reverse it somehow after so many turns)

1,333 (edited by R.J.A.Allen 2013-04-11 10:55:00)

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

ronsii wrote:
Nimikin wrote:

I am admittedly only an EE student, so not very strong on mechanical theory, but has anyone looked at motorized fishing line winders? The look like the work similarly. The only problem I see there is they twist the line...

The regular  fishing reel is just like the hose winder and does not twist the line unlike a spin casting reel.

Indeed your hose guide is essentially a plastic multiblier fishing reel! The double helix worm gear is identical!!

Another thought Ian,

Since I've been playing with 3mm filament, I noticed it likes a much wider (greater diameter)  spool, I spool all filastruder filament on these http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:10219 obviously by hand atm.

I find spooling at a smaller diameter develops a lot of microcracking and plastic deformation of the filament, which in turn effects how it runs into the machine, particularly if you have a bowden system like on the UM.

Personally I often experience a lot of deformation and microcracking at the ends of the reels that I have previously got form other suppliers, which often leads to me throwing away the last 100g of so just so I don't have to deal with he hassle of it!

Also just ordered an extra arduino and I'm making up an extra extruder now, so any pointers on the light gate circuit would be massively appreciated!

Cheers,

Rob

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Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

I have built my extruder, bought neutral abs, at 220C tried to extrude. 1meter extruded grey, then there is nothing coming out, so I have dissambled the nozzle, cleaned, and run it eithout nozzle but abs burned, and cannot feed abs, because the abs stay in front of auger.
What can be the problem. I cleaned the whole auger, tomorrow I will try again.is the temperature high, so burned abs clogged the end of auger ?
Should I stop extruding without cleaning the whole abs on auger.?

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Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

There are a number of different ways of making the winding guide.  One question is do you want it to be indexed to the rotation of the spool or just move it back and forth?

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Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

carl wrote:

There are a number of different ways of making the winding guide.  One question is do you want it to be indexed to the rotation of the spool or just move it back and forth?

I don't hink it would make sense for anything other than indexed to the spool rotation.

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Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

Guys,

Lets try to create separate threads for each development track, now that we have a forum.

Ian, could you create a thread on the puller/spooler/winder?

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Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

elmoret wrote:
justnick wrote:

Ian - You are my hero! higher tension to straighten out the filament. And try increasing distance between spool and tensioner like Tim said.

I very much like the verticle drop out of the nozzle, but I got really straight OSP filament with horizontal nozzle 40" span and 12" of drop, S/D = 3.3;  Lateral movement at bottom of loop without guides was less than 1/2".  S/D=2.96 gives minimum variation of filament force at extruder as a function of loop lenth variation, (but you are regulating the loop lenght so tightly this shouldn't be much of a factor).

Is this extruding out or down?

Extruding out.

Think I found some filament variation magic.

Just ran 20ft with essentially the same set up with OSP better than +/- 0.05mm variation,  only diff was the auger was pushed 1/4" more into the melt zone which should bring it even with the end of the nipple.  I did not dissassemble. so that is an estimate from where I remember it being.  The filament had a nice smooth surface to it and it was much less wavey.  I need to run more but first want to get the capstan speed regulated with an Arduino similar to what Ian is doing instead of controlling it manually. Intersting point of this setup and Ian's is there is no fan or guides.

BTW eyeballed a short piece of 618 Nylon.  It is running better than +/- 0.03, but a lot of it was out of round by 0.02mm.  The ABS filament we are extruding tends to generally be more circular.  I need to measure more when I get the logger going.

When I went to push the auger further into the mix, I first heated to 200C and ran some filament.  I then loosened the split collar and reversed the motor a touch to take tension off of the auger.  I could not turn the auger by hand or push it further into the pipe.  I finally resorted to vice grips on the auger hex shaft with a C clamp on the pipe flange to lever it further into the melt zone.  Took a lot of of force, and when I finally did get it to move, filament oozed out.  That poor thrust bearing and gear box!

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Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

justnick:

That's an interesting observation indeed. To this point, I've been measuring and cutting them individually, and just getting it within a quarter inch or so. For the kickstarter, I'll have a jig set up to cut them - that will make them all uniform. It explains why you were seeing +/-0.085 when most everyone else saw +/- 0.03 to +/-0.05.

In short, looks like I cut your auger a quarter inch too short! I'm sorry about that....

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Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

elmoret wrote:

justnick:

That's an interesting observation indeed. To this point, I've been measuring and cutting them individually, and just getting it within a quarter inch or so. For the kickstarter, I'll have a jig set up to cut them - that will make them all uniform. It explains why you were seeing +/-0.085 when most everyone else saw +/- 0.03 to +/-0.05.

In short, looks like I cut your auger a quarter inch too short! I'm sorry about that....

Don't sweat it, but I am afraid to run more in case the magic disappears.  In a way this is really good because it gives us clues about what is happening in the melt zone and mechanical sensitivities.  Another observation is that even though the filament was noticably better, I still saw the motor lugging down for 10-20 seconds at a time, and when it did, the extriusion rate would increase.  Following the slow down, it would speed up for a similar amount of time and the extrusion rate would drop below average.

Also after wedging the auger around and pushing it forward, there has been an increase in black particles in the filament.   I have a shinny piece of stainless waiting in the wings.

1,341

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

justnick wrote:

Don't sweat it, but I am afraid to run more in case the magic disappears.  In a way this is really good because it gives us clues about what is happening in the melt zone and mechanical sensitivities.  Another observation is that even though the filament was noticably better, I still saw the motor lugging down for 10-20 seconds at a time, and when it did, the extriusion rate would increase.  Following the slow down, it would speed up for a similar amount of time and the extrusion rate would drop below average.

Also after wedging the auger around and pushing it forward, there has been an increase in black particles in the filament.   I have a shinny piece of stainless waiting in the wings.

Yeah, I wonder if that's because you now have a auger edge riding on the nipple edge, or if you created a big sideload on the auger while pushing it forward, scraping it against the wall and possibly bending it.

One of the issues here is that what we're doing is so far outside of what's covered in literature that there's no "best practices". For example, no professional extruder that I've read about uses a constant pitch, constant diameter feedscrew, but that's what we're limited to at this price point. Also, the pro extruders generate 80-90% of the needed heat from internal shear - not from band heaters.

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Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

Yeah, I wonder if that's because you now have a auger edge riding on the nipple edge, or if you created a big sideload on the auger while pushing it forward, scraping it against the wall and possibly bending it.

One of the issues here is that what we're doing is so far outside of what's covered in literature that there's no "best practices". For example, no professional extruder that I've read about uses a constant pitch, constant diameter feedscrew, but that's what we're limited to at this price point. Also, the pro extruders generate 80-90% of the needed heat from internal shear - not from band heaters.

Without dilusions of ego, a new chapter is being written in the literature.  All the "pro" stuff is optimized and has evolved to solve the problem of volume throughput, and as you said this project is about price point and I'd inject -at virtually the same quality.  This setup uses the heater to define what part of the screw will be in the melt zone, without having to vary the pitch of the screw.  Almost like an electronically variable pitch screw.  We also turn so slow that gas bubbles are not being trapped at the pellet/melt interface (guess).  And based on my last filament pull, I am becoming a believer that this extruder delivers....now off to the next set of evil experiments....

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Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

justnick wrote:

And based on my last filament pull, I am becoming a believer that this extruder delivers

Nice! smile

This weekend I'm prototyping a stainless barrel. If it goes well, the upgrade kit would look like this:

Auger
Stainless nipple
Stainless coupling

and sell for about $25 + shipping.

The reason to include the auger is so it doesn't have to be manhandled on its way out. You'd reuse the nozzle/die, and heaterband.

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Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

SS barrel, auger and coupler for $25 + ship would be a good deal.  Tim - are you planning to set up a web store?

On the subject of barrel changes, does anyone have a good procedure right now?  I was thinking about dumping loose pellets, flaming on, removing the nozzle, and very seriously, filling the hopper with popcorn kernals.  Might need a quick disassemble and acetone flush afterwards.

Also found a source for a 2lb bag of JB501 pellets for multi color filament at Target.

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Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

justnick wrote:

Tim - are you planning to set up a web store?

Yup! Evaluating options over the next few days.

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Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

Just got this message on Kickstarter:

何必这么麻烦建这小型的打印丝呢?跟我大批量的进货多好。我是来自中国的有空联系我吧。

Google translate says:

Why should I bother to build small print silk? Purchase large quantities with me much good. I am from China free to contact me.

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Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

What if we really did use JB501 or other water soluable substance as a flushing material?  I wonder if it would displace the ABS.  Follow up with a quick water flush?

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Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

justnick wrote:

What if we really did use JB501 or other water soluable substance as a flushing material?  I wonder if it would displace the ABS.  Follow up with a quick water flush?

Bad idea. To "get rid of" the ABS, it needs to be near 150C or higher - otherwise it sticks to the steel. If you flush with something with a lower melt temp, then it gets really runny before the ABS melts. If you flush with something with a higher melt temp, then that "something" is left behind. Theoretically you could flush PLA with ABS, but then you're stuck - unless you wanted to start extruding nylon polycarbonate, ptfe, peek, etc. (disclaimer: I have no experience with those plastics)

I run until empty, pull the nozzle off while hot, and reach in there with needle nose pliers.

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Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

Maybe the next version should have easy to swap nozzles.  This would be nice for switching to other types of plastic like HDPE or PLA without cross contaminating.

SD2 with E3D, SD Press, Form 1+
Filastruder
NYLON (taulman): http://www.soliforum.com/topic/466/nylon/

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Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

Shapeways sent me a box of powdered nylon, asked me to give it a go. Should be interesting!