1 (edited by EagleSeven 2015-07-11 13:35:36)

Topic: Why add a Fan at Extruder-nozzles ?

Why would anyone want to Cool the Extruder-nozzles, by adding a Fan??
I want Mine to Stay Hot, when I'm using the printer,
and just cool-down normally when not in use.
I see online videos and pics of modified fan mounts blowing on extruder-nozzles
but I don't understand why that is ever needed.
It's certainly not needed on our CTC printer.

BTW: Also, some printers , like the Kossel, have a Nozzle Fan already ???

CTC Printer
Modifications Added

2

Re: Why add a Fan at Extruder-nozzles ?

You're not trying to cool the nozzle, but the filament as it exits the nozzle.  This makes a big difference with bridges and overhangs.  The fan speed can be controlled manually, or through g-code.

You are correct though, you don't want to direct the air onto the nozzle itself, just at the filament.

3 (edited by EagleSeven 2015-07-11 15:19:10)

Re: Why add a Fan at Extruder-nozzles ?

Do those printers Not have a Temperature control, for the nozzles, in the printer-firmware for preheat, and also in the software being used. (The only printer we have used has Both)
If so, still don't see why Fan is needed ?
If not, is there no software that can be used that will control Temp ?
Or would that also require a modification to printer, like addition of thermocouple-sensors and circuitry?

From what I've seen the filament needs to stay fairly hot for good next layer adhesion?

I see no way of cooling the Filament without Also cooling the nozzle ?

BTW: Some printers I've seen modified that way are printers that I know have Temp controls.

CTC Printer
Modifications Added

4

Re: Why add a Fan at Extruder-nozzles ?

Honestly, this is probably the most impactful mod you can do.  Here is the results of an experiment where I ran the same gcode with and without fan.  It will give you much beter quality on overhangs.  I almost never turn on support material anymore.

http://www.soliforum.com/misc.php?action=pun_attachment&item=7758

5 (edited by EagleSeven 2015-07-11 17:30:12)

Re: Why add a Fan at Extruder-nozzles ?

Yes, but does your printer have full Temp control of nozzles ??
(using thermocouple-sensors)

If they do have Temp sensors then it sounds like the Temp is being set Too High for the plastic type being used ?

CTC Printer
Modifications Added

6

Re: Why add a Fan at Extruder-nozzles ?

Yes our printers have full nozzle temp control.  The fan has nothing to do with the nozzle temp.  Accurate PID tuning of the nozzle temp will yield a perfect flat line temp.  The nozzle fan is used to do many things.

On very small prints it is used to cool the layers just enough that the print doesn't deform before the next layer goes down.

It is used with great results for bridging as it will cool the filament just enough to allow it to stretch tight.

It also helps greatly with steep overhangs that would normally require support.

Your theory of a nozzle fan messing up layer adhesion is not true.  Think about a large print, by the time the nozzle gets back to a particular location for the next layer,  the previous layer most certainly isn't still at or beyond the transition point.
You always are printing on a layer of cooler plastic so no worries about that.

My advice is, if you've never experienced a good G-code controlled nozzle fan, try it!

Printit Industries Model 8.10 fully enclosed CoreXY, Chamber heat
3-SD3's & a Workbench all fully enclosed, RH-Slic3r Win7pro, E3D V6, Volcano & Cyclops Hot End
SSR/500W AC Heated Glass Bed, Linear bearings on SS rods. Direct Drive Y-axis, BulldogXL
Thanks to all for your contributions

7 (edited by EagleSeven 2015-07-11 18:46:12)

Re: Why add a Fan at Extruder-nozzles ?

wardjr wrote:

My advice is, if you've never experienced a good G-code controlled nozzle fan, try it!

Okay, you have convinced me that Fan is something I Need to Try.
I still don't understand how it can really improve print quality, if temp settings are correct,
but maybe if I see it in action I Will smile
Thanks for the Info !

I'm having to spend too much of my available time learning object creation Software design and editing right now,
to add another potential hardware problem area . LOL smile

CTC Printer
Modifications Added

8 (edited by EagleSeven 2015-07-11 19:22:07)

Re: Why add a Fan at Extruder-nozzles ?

wardjr wrote:

Accurate PID tuning of the nozzle temp will yield a perfect flat line temp.

Do you happen to know of a good place to get more Info about "PID tuning" ?

I think I understand what it IS, (feedback loop controller)
but Not how to accurately Tune it ??

I previously encountered PID in a Ships-Helm control but I guess that is a Little Different ? LOL smile

CTC Printer
Modifications Added

9

Re: Why add a Fan at Extruder-nozzles ?

A layer fan as it is more accurately called is necessary with PLA due to it's unique characteristic of retaining heat much longer than ABS. Because of this small areas will retain heat to a point that they will begin to melt with each pass of the nozzle. To counter this we ad a layer fan that will cool the previous layer more so it will not retain so much heat and the next pass will simply lay the next layer instead of adding more heat as well.

Printing since 2009 and still love it!
Anycubic 4MAX best $225 ever invested.
Voxelabs Proxima SLA. 6 inch 2k Mono LCD.
Anycubic Predator, massive Delta machine. 450 x 370 print envelope.

10

Re: Why add a Fan at Extruder-nozzles ?

carl_m1968 wrote:

A layer fan is necessary with PLA

Yes, I have noticed that, Thanks for Info !
Now I need to print a Fan Funnel ! LOL smile

CTC Printer
Modifications Added

11 (edited by knowack 2015-07-12 00:02:34)

Re: Why add a Fan at Extruder-nozzles ?

Think of it this way:  you have temperature control of the filament until the point where it leaves the nozzle.  After that, without a fan, you have no control of the cooling rate of the media you just deposited.  A g-code controlled fan can turn on and off, and vary its speed to gain better results for overhangs, bridges, quick layers, and other problematic areas.

12 (edited by EagleSeven 2015-07-12 00:16:55)

Re: Why add a Fan at Extruder-nozzles ?

But what if you are using software, like Makerbot, that the G-code can Not be edited ?
Is there a way to software control that added fan on those printers ?
Or is Manual speed control the only option ?

CTC Printer
Modifications Added

13

Re: Why add a Fan at Extruder-nozzles ?

BTW: Since our printer has 2 Nozzles,
I guess I need to print 2 Funnels ......attached together...... Somehow.... !  LOL smile

CTC Printer
Modifications Added

14 (edited by carl_m1968 2015-07-12 05:55:52)

Re: Why add a Fan at Extruder-nozzles ?

EagleSeven wrote:

BTW: Since our printer has 2 Nozzles,
I guess I need to print 2 Funnels ......attached together...... Somehow.... !  LOL smile

There are several on thingiverse that are made to use the existing clip points on the CTC printers. I made one for mine... Just look for Flashforge Creator cooling fan. It is the same as the CTC..

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:537918

Printing since 2009 and still love it!
Anycubic 4MAX best $225 ever invested.
Voxelabs Proxima SLA. 6 inch 2k Mono LCD.
Anycubic Predator, massive Delta machine. 450 x 370 print envelope.

15

Re: Why add a Fan at Extruder-nozzles ?

EagleSeven wrote:
wardjr wrote:

Accurate PID tuning of the nozzle temp will yield a perfect flat line temp.

Do you happen to know of a good place to get more Info about "PID tuning" ?

I think I understand what it IS, (feedback loop controller)
but Not how to accurately Tune it ??

I previously encountered PID in a Ships-Helm control but I guess that is a Little Different ? LOL smile

Just look at the WIKI the instructions will walk you right through the process.
http://www.soliwiki.com/PID_tuning

Printit Industries Model 8.10 fully enclosed CoreXY, Chamber heat
3-SD3's & a Workbench all fully enclosed, RH-Slic3r Win7pro, E3D V6, Volcano & Cyclops Hot End
SSR/500W AC Heated Glass Bed, Linear bearings on SS rods. Direct Drive Y-axis, BulldogXL
Thanks to all for your contributions

16

Re: Why add a Fan at Extruder-nozzles ?

wardjr wrote:

look at the WIKI the instructions will walk you right through the process.
http://www.soliwiki.com/PID_tuning

Thanks for Info !
but that refers to Software and programming that is Very Different from any we are using.

Hopefully someone will  develop GUI software soon that will allow us to just put in temp numbers,
and Not have edit the programming code (gcode)

Until then we will probably just try a fan connected to a small adjustable external power-supply,
so it won't be drawing power from printer's power-supply.

CTC Printer
Modifications Added

17

Re: Why add a Fan at Extruder-nozzles ?

carl_m1968 wrote:

look for Flashforge Creator cooling fan. It is the same as the CTC..
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:537918

Thanks for the link,
I had seen those but was not sure if it would fit.
I will try it !

CTC Printer
Modifications Added

18

Re: Why add a Fan at Extruder-nozzles ?

EagleSeven wrote:
wardjr wrote:

look at the WIKI the instructions will walk you right through the process.
http://www.soliwiki.com/PID_tuning

Thanks for Info !
but that refers to Software and programming that is Very Different from any we are using.

Hopefully someone will  develop GUI software soon that will allow us to just put in temp numbers,
and Not have edit the programming code (gcode)

Until then we will probably just try a fan connected to a small adjustable external power-supply,
so it won't be drawing power from printer's power-supply.

You maybe don't have EEPROM interface but it is certainly in the firmware.  Of course that doesn't help either if you don't have access to a copy of that.

Printit Industries Model 8.10 fully enclosed CoreXY, Chamber heat
3-SD3's & a Workbench all fully enclosed, RH-Slic3r Win7pro, E3D V6, Volcano & Cyclops Hot End
SSR/500W AC Heated Glass Bed, Linear bearings on SS rods. Direct Drive Y-axis, BulldogXL
Thanks to all for your contributions

19

Re: Why add a Fan at Extruder-nozzles ?

sad No, we have No way of editing any of That sad

CTC Printer
Modifications Added

20

Re: Why add a Fan at Extruder-nozzles ?

EagleSeven wrote:

sad No, we have No way of editing any of That sad

What are they using for a board on that thing?  Is it running a proprietary firmware?

Printit Industries Model 8.10 fully enclosed CoreXY, Chamber heat
3-SD3's & a Workbench all fully enclosed, RH-Slic3r Win7pro, E3D V6, Volcano & Cyclops Hot End
SSR/500W AC Heated Glass Bed, Linear bearings on SS rods. Direct Drive Y-axis, BulldogXL
Thanks to all for your contributions

21

Re: Why add a Fan at Extruder-nozzles ?

wardjr wrote:
EagleSeven wrote:

sad No, we have No way of editing any of That sad

What are they using for a board on that thing?  Is it running a proprietary firmware?

I suppose so ??
I know we can download and install new versions of the Firmware, as they are released,
but other than That, 'I Know Nothing' ! tongue
The Makerbot software has great GUI options for Most things
but of course there is no way to edit that, if needed. sad

CTC Printer
Modifications Added

22

Re: Why add a Fan at Extruder-nozzles ?

I thought the CTC was a makerbot clone.  How can they use Makerbots proprietary firmware?

Printit Industries Model 8.10 fully enclosed CoreXY, Chamber heat
3-SD3's & a Workbench all fully enclosed, RH-Slic3r Win7pro, E3D V6, Volcano & Cyclops Hot End
SSR/500W AC Heated Glass Bed, Linear bearings on SS rods. Direct Drive Y-axis, BulldogXL
Thanks to all for your contributions

23 (edited by carl_m1968 2015-07-12 19:44:06)

Re: Why add a Fan at Extruder-nozzles ?

The mightyboard is not proprietary. There is also Sailfish firmware which works on mightyboard as well.

Printing since 2009 and still love it!
Anycubic 4MAX best $225 ever invested.
Voxelabs Proxima SLA. 6 inch 2k Mono LCD.
Anycubic Predator, massive Delta machine. 450 x 370 print envelope.

24

Re: Why add a Fan at Extruder-nozzles ?

So why couldn't just be re flashed with Marlin?  Just trying to learn more.

Printit Industries Model 8.10 fully enclosed CoreXY, Chamber heat
3-SD3's & a Workbench all fully enclosed, RH-Slic3r Win7pro, E3D V6, Volcano & Cyclops Hot End
SSR/500W AC Heated Glass Bed, Linear bearings on SS rods. Direct Drive Y-axis, BulldogXL
Thanks to all for your contributions

25 (edited by Tin Falcon 2015-07-12 20:47:34)

Re: Why add a Fan at Extruder-nozzles ?

https://github.com/makerbot/MightyBoardFirmware
It is my understanding the Older makerbots and the clones Ie Flashforge , and CTC  all use the mightyboard and replicator g they also can be flashed with sailfish if you want to repetier host.

Soliddoodle 4 stock w glass bed------Folger Tech Prusa 2020 upgraded to and titan /aero extruder mirror bed
FT5 with titan/ E3D Aero------MP mini select w glass bed
MP Utimate maker pro-W bondtech extruder
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