1 (edited by brightwing 2015-06-24 02:17:35)

Topic: PLA delamination

On small prints delamination hasn't been a problem but now that I have things *mostly* sticking to the bed I am trying to print larger things. I'm also getting peeling on corners of large things, using glass+hairspray.

Bed is at 50 and extruder at 222. I'm not sure where to find my filament feed rate. Speeed at 50mm/s. Infill 20%

In the picture you can see it on the right side. The left side has a lot as well. The object is about 110mm long. Its a cool light switch cover!

Attached photos of my recent print:
http://soliforum.com/i/?NhQWIhz.jpg

http://soliforum.com/i/?WdYyMPE.jpg


Sorry for potato quality images. My SLR in the background had just run out of batteries xD

Folgertech Kossel Kit

2

Re: PLA delamination

You need a fan that blows directly at the layer as it is printed for PLA. This is why you see those fan ducts all over thingiverse.

Printing since 2009 and still love it!
Anycubic 4MAX best $225 ever invested.
Voxelabs Proxima SLA. 6 inch 2k Mono LCD.
Anycubic Predator, massive Delta machine. 450 x 370 print envelope.

3

Re: PLA delamination

Would it theoretically work if the air is been sucked past it? I'm thinking of making something to fit over the kossel fan so that intake air will flow past the nozzle, and then still blow over the fins of the hotend.

Perhaps I can split the stream of air to go to the nozzle and to the fins? Might be easier.

I just really don't want to buy another fan.

Folgertech Kossel Kit

4

Re: PLA delamination

brightwing wrote:

Would it theoretically work if the air is been sucked past it? I'm thinking of making something to fit over the kossel fan so that intake air will flow past the nozzle, and then still blow over the fins of the hotend.

Perhaps I can split the stream of air to go to the nozzle and to the fins? Might be easier.

I just really don't want to buy another fan.

You can get a 40mm fan on ebay for 3 bucks including shipping. They are not expensive at all.

Printing since 2009 and still love it!
Anycubic 4MAX best $225 ever invested.
Voxelabs Proxima SLA. 6 inch 2k Mono LCD.
Anycubic Predator, massive Delta machine. 450 x 370 print envelope.

5

Re: PLA delamination

Not sure where I would plug it in. Can this wimpy power supply handle much more?

Folgertech Kossel Kit

6

Re: PLA delamination

brightwing wrote:

Not sure where I would plug it in. Can this wimpy power supply handle much more?

Fans pull very little current, you could just splice it in to the existing fan or run new wires straight from the supply. Ideally you would want it on a switch or even controlled by the mainboard so it comes on after the first layer.  But I ran a PLA printer with the part fan full on from start to finish with no issues.

Printing since 2009 and still love it!
Anycubic 4MAX best $225 ever invested.
Voxelabs Proxima SLA. 6 inch 2k Mono LCD.
Anycubic Predator, massive Delta machine. 450 x 370 print envelope.

7

Re: PLA delamination

You need a fan when printing PLA 100% of the time unless you are printing an exceptionally large block.
The layers need to cool before the next layer is applied, and if you don't use a fan, smaller parts in PLA will be nearly impossible to get right. The first layer would need to be cooled as well. Even with an open frame, a simple desk fan is recommended.
Also, PLA does not like tall AND thin designs. A larger nozzle can help combat said designs. But designs infinitely vary, so don't rely on just that.

Carl is dead on...fans don't require much pull. So add away!
As I mentioned (arguably, far too) many times on other threads, I run all my fans, 8 in total, on a separate power supply to a 6 way splitter....then a 1-to-4 way splitter lol
Point is, I have a dedicated power source for my board, and my fans....but this is entirely from my despicable electrical skills smile

Printit Mason and Printit Horizon printers
Multiple SD2s- Bulldog XL, E3D v5/v6/Lite6, Volcano, Hobb Goblin, Titan, .9 motor, Lawsy carriages, direct Y drive, fishing line...the list goes on
Filawinder and Filastruder #1870.....worth every penny!

8

Re: PLA delamination

AZERATE wrote:

You need a fan when printing PLA 100% of the time unless you are printing an exceptionally large block.
The layers need to cool before the next layer is applied, and if you don't use a fan, smaller parts in PLA will be nearly impossible to get right. The first layer would need to be cooled as well. Even with an open frame, a simple desk fan is recommended.
Also, PLA does not like tall AND thin designs. A larger nozzle can help combat said designs. But designs infinitely vary, so don't rely on just that.

Carl is dead on...fans don't require much pull. So add away!
As I mentioned (arguably, far too) many times on other threads, I run all my fans, 8 in total, on a separate power supply to a 6 way splitter....then a 1-to-4 way splitter lol
Point is, I have a dedicated power source for my board, and my fans....but this is entirely from my despicable electrical skills smile

Why so many?!

Folgertech Kossel Kit

9

Re: PLA delamination

He probably has atleast two on his part for even cooling and no hot sinlge side like one fan will get you. Probably one for the controller and maybe one for each motor. I plan to put one on my Da Vinci's extruder motor as it runs very hot even at reduced current.

Printing since 2009 and still love it!
Anycubic 4MAX best $225 ever invested.
Voxelabs Proxima SLA. 6 inch 2k Mono LCD.
Anycubic Predator, massive Delta machine. 450 x 370 print envelope.

10 (edited by brightwing 2015-06-25 01:36:24)

Re: PLA delamination

Oh I see. Can't even cooling be achieved with a circular nozzle for the air around the hotend? I'm working on a design right now for that. I know there will still be a bias to one side, but blocking off the opening on the end nearest to the fan might achieve pretty even airflow.

Gonna be hard to make that shape in sketchup though XD

Folgertech Kossel Kit

11 (edited by carl_m1968 2015-06-25 01:41:19)

Re: PLA delamination

brightwing wrote:

Oh I see. Can't even cooling be achieved with a circular nozzle for the air around the hotend? I'm working on a design right now for that. I know there will still be a bias to one side, but blocking off the opening on the end nearest to the fan might achieve pretty even airflow.

Gonna be hard to make that shape in sketchup though XD

Nozzles are fine as long as they direct air to two opposite sides minimum.  Circular ducts like the annular ducts found on thingiverse are even better if you have the clearance for them.

Printing since 2009 and still love it!
Anycubic 4MAX best $225 ever invested.
Voxelabs Proxima SLA. 6 inch 2k Mono LCD.
Anycubic Predator, massive Delta machine. 450 x 370 print envelope.

12

Re: PLA delamination

I think I'm going to reverse man fan and then put a smoking match under it to see where the air is flowing.. Should be able to eventually optimize it. Goodbye wednesday night!

Folgertech Kossel Kit

13

Re: PLA delamination

brightwing wrote:

Why so many?!

*E3D
*Nozzle
*X motor
*Y motor
*E motor
*2 fans on board
*Added Supernight PSU fan

The fans for the board and PSU are mandatory for me. Since I have a toddler, my printers need to be entirely enclosed.

carl_m1968 wrote:

Nozzles are fine as long as they direct air to two opposite sides minimum.

Not true. I have never used more than a single active cooling at a time. If one were to print, say, a small tower 3mm in diameter, no matter the material, you would certainly need extra cooling. But for 99% of what you would print, fans blowing in opposite directions can create a vortex with opposing forces...it would not be as effective as a single uninterrupted stream.

Printit Mason and Printit Horizon printers
Multiple SD2s- Bulldog XL, E3D v5/v6/Lite6, Volcano, Hobb Goblin, Titan, .9 motor, Lawsy carriages, direct Y drive, fishing line...the list goes on
Filawinder and Filastruder #1870.....worth every penny!

14

Re: PLA delamination

AZERATE wrote:
brightwing wrote:

Why so many?!

*E3D
*Nozzle
*X motor
*Y motor
*E motor
*2 fans on board
*Added Supernight PSU fan

The fans for the board and PSU are mandatory for me. Since I have a toddler, my printers need to be entirely enclosed.

carl_m1968 wrote:

Nozzles are fine as long as they direct air to two opposite sides minimum.

Not true. I have never used more than a single active cooling at a time. If one were to print, say, a small tower 3mm in diameter, no matter the material, you would certainly need extra cooling. But for 99% of what you would print, fans blowing in opposite directions can create a vortex with opposing forces...it would not be as effective as a single uninterrupted stream.

Depends on your object. I once tried printing a model that was about 40mm tall. It was a globe with a spiral stairway twisting around a mountain up to it. The stairway was actually nothing but a 3mm wide overhang all the way around. It would deform and melt on the opposite side from my fan. I ended up printing a dual output duct that blew from right and left and the model printed perfect then.

Printing since 2009 and still love it!
Anycubic 4MAX best $225 ever invested.
Voxelabs Proxima SLA. 6 inch 2k Mono LCD.
Anycubic Predator, massive Delta machine. 450 x 370 print envelope.

15 (edited by brightwing 2015-06-25 03:14:21)

Re: PLA delamination

AZERATE wrote:
brightwing wrote:

Why so many?!

*E3D
*Nozzle
*X motor
*Y motor
*E motor
*2 fans on board
*Added Supernight PSU fan

The fans for the board and PSU are mandatory for me. Since I have a toddler, my printers need to be entirely enclosed.

carl_m1968 wrote:

Nozzles are fine as long as they direct air to two opposite sides minimum.

Not true. I have never used more than a single active cooling at a time. If one were to print, say, a small tower 3mm in diameter, no matter the material, you would certainly need extra cooling. But for 99% of what you would print, fans blowing in opposite directions can create a vortex with opposing forces...it would not be as effective as a single uninterrupted stream.

Man, an air vortex if made totally even and centered around the nozzle - wouldn't that be the perfect cooling? 360 degrees?

I'm trying out this:

http://i.imgur.com/xuDx7qi.png

Printing now I hope it works!

Folgertech Kossel Kit

16

Re: PLA delamination

brightwing wrote:

Man, an air vortex if made totally even and centered around the nozzle - wouldn't that be the perfect cooling? 360 degrees?

Only in theory. In practice, the opposing air currents would choose directions to escape. Think of two garden hoses pointed toward each other. Eek! Even though the center suffered the full brunt of the airflow, the airflow around it, which would cause a vortex , would disrupted almost immediately. And since the your hotend is not mounted in a stationary manor (it moves x and y), the air current would constantly change.

Said overhang blobs can be prevented with support material and/or a properly placed fan.
I hope the mount design works out for you! smile

Printit Mason and Printit Horizon printers
Multiple SD2s- Bulldog XL, E3D v5/v6/Lite6, Volcano, Hobb Goblin, Titan, .9 motor, Lawsy carriages, direct Y drive, fishing line...the list goes on
Filawinder and Filastruder #1870.....worth every penny!

17

Re: PLA delamination

Ah I see your point about the streams. What if it was almost like a turbine but reversed? With many angled flaps diverting the air flow. Impractical, just thinking theoretically... tongue

Folgertech Kossel Kit

18 (edited by brightwing 2015-06-25 05:17:04)

Re: PLA delamination

The print did not work. Damn manifold issues. Sketchup can be a nightmare xD

My last file is called fansplitter-giveup.stl because I gave up and just ended up having it blow from one direction.

Folgertech Kossel Kit

19

Re: PLA delamination

Noob here, but I've noticed the same thing... edges look nice and crisp on the side of the head with a fan, but sloppier on the opposite side. I'd love to see a good, working dual-fan setup that could be borrowed.

I don't have a Solidoodle, but someday might get up the courage to mod an extra fan onto my printer to see if I can improve it.

20 (edited by brightwing 2015-06-25 21:34:18)

Re: PLA delamination

Hey guys. Please check out this album: http://imgur.com/a/mi1hi

I got the fan duct blowing onto the nozzle. Perhaps not enough, but I can feel the air coming out (pic included though its not the best angle). Out of desperation I even put a big fan blowing right at the print and I still had delamination (On all sides).

I feel like cooling has been ruled out. Other than cooling, what could the issue be? Could it be my extrusion rate? Could the z-axis be raising slightly too high per layer? Could it be nozzle temperature (this print was at 225)?

Thanks for your help!

PS. Juggler, what printer are you using?? If its the folgertech kossel I can send you my stl files when I get the design just right.

Folgertech Kossel Kit

21

Re: PLA delamination

Are you sure your nozzle is actuall at 225? You would need to measure it wit a contact thermometer like a cooking thermometer or such. An IR non-contact won't work as the source is too small. You could try to raise the temp to 230 or decrease your infill if possible. The goal is to get maximum layer adhesion followed maximum maximum cooling. Sounds counter productive but when done it just works.

Printing since 2009 and still love it!
Anycubic 4MAX best $225 ever invested.
Voxelabs Proxima SLA. 6 inch 2k Mono LCD.
Anycubic Predator, massive Delta machine. 450 x 370 print envelope.

22

Re: PLA delamination

The thermister is in the block above the nozzle, so the nozzle is likely actually cooler. I can try raising the temp and see if that will help. With the big fan there is no more possible cooling I can do tongue

Folgertech Kossel Kit

23

Re: PLA delamination

I just printed a 25x25x25mm calibration cube. ww.thingiverse.com/thing:45225

Measured with calipers and I get x: 25.3, y : 25.3, z: 26.2. Is it possible my z steps/mm are wrong?

Folgertech Kossel Kit

24

Re: PLA delamination

brightwing wrote:

I just printed a 25x25x25mm calibration cube. ww.thingiverse.com/thing:45225

Measured with calipers and I get x: 25.3, y : 25.3, z: 26.2. Is it possible my z steps/mm are wrong?

It is very possible based on that measurement but it will not cause delamination. What layer thickness are you printing at and what is your nozzle diameter?

Printing since 2009 and still love it!
Anycubic 4MAX best $225 ever invested.
Voxelabs Proxima SLA. 6 inch 2k Mono LCD.
Anycubic Predator, massive Delta machine. 450 x 370 print envelope.

25 (edited by brightwing 2015-06-25 22:06:27)

Re: PLA delamination

carl_m1968 wrote:
brightwing wrote:

I just printed a 25x25x25mm calibration cube. ww.thingiverse.com/thing:45225

Measured with calipers and I get x: 25.3, y : 25.3, z: 26.2. Is it possible my z steps/mm are wrong?

It is very possible based on that measurement but it will not cause delamination. What layer thickness are you printing at and what is your nozzle diameter?

Printing at 2mm height and 4mm nozzle diameter (never said in the folgertech manual, I emailed them and asked).

Folgertech Kossel Kit