1 (edited by stvrbbns 2015-03-08 16:02:29)

Topic: Sudden Print Failure

Greetings, Soliforum. You've had quite a bit of useful information for me, but I'm afraid I've encountered a problem which I don't even know how to describe well. I've been successfully using my Solidoodle Pro 2 for a couple hundred prints and am currently printing a bunch of 30mm pawns. I've made a whole pile of them successfully so far, but suddenly the printer no longer extrudes enough plastic. I've attached a photo of the results, with two good pawns on the right and two of the problem/failure pawns on the left. The outside perimeter of the failed pawns looks okay for the first part of the print, but the honeycomb infill is clearly lacking (it looks like wild spider threads with frequent droplets rather than like the wavey honeycomb it's supposed to look like and has looked like previously). Can anyone even suggest something for me to check? I'm completely out of ideas.

- I've tried recalibrating the temperature.
- I've checked the extruder housing and it does not contain filament dust, so the filament is *NOT* just getting chewed away.
- I've tried reloading the file and reslicing the STL at other locations on the build plate.
- I've tried switching out the specific roll of ABS filament for another one.
- There don't appear to be any bubbles in the filament and using digital calipers confirms that the filament is still 1.72mm +/- .2mm.
- I've tried simply boosting the Slic3r filament extrusion multiplier by 25% and saw no visible difference. It mostly sort of works if I bump the extrusion multiplier by 50% over where it was set previously (where it worked fine for dozens of prints).
- I would not guess that the extruder nozzle is clogged, but I've not taken it apart to check (and would *really* prefer to not have to try that).

Thank you very much for your attention and any thoughts/ideas/assistance/suggestions you can provide.

http://imgur.com/gallery/3JfQxjI
http://i.imgur.com/3JfQxjI.jpg

2

Re: Sudden Print Failure

I got a few more pawns printed correctly, having increased the extrusion multiplier from 0.8 to 1.2, but now even that is failing (in the same way as explained and pictured - insufficient filament extrusion).

I did first look for tips/help on the Solidoodle Wiki but did not find anything that seemed applicable. The closest described problem I found was the "hot clog" but, as I mentioned, I'd really rather not try to disassemble the extruder.

3

Re: Sudden Print Failure

I also just tried carefully measuring how much filament gets extruded when using the manual Repetier Host controls, and it is about 10mm filament consumed/extruded (measuring the filament fed in from the top by the extruder) per 8mm extrusion commanded (so 25% more actually extruded than commanded/requested). Retrospectively, that helps explain the low Solidoodle Pro 2 default extrusion multiplier. However, given that it is high instead of low, I think I can safely cross the feeder motor off the list of potential sources of my problem (i.e. the motor isn't giving out and feeding filament insufficiently).

4 (edited by IronMan 2015-03-02 18:32:46)

Re: Sudden Print Failure

Start out by performing an extruder calibration.  you really need to command 100mm to see what the real variance is and then make the adjustments to the steps/mm in the firmware:

https://solidoodletips.wordpress.com/20 … libration/

Then you can dial in your extrusion multiplier, etc.

EDIT:  And if it is in fact a partial clog, the procedure above will help you to determine that.  When the extruder properly calibrated, I would be surprised if your extrusion multiplier exceeds 10% (.90 - 1.0)

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5 (edited by stvrbbns 2015-03-08 17:00:43)

Re: Sudden Print Failure

Thank you, IronMan. Among the various Solidoodle calibration topics I'd run across, I somehow missed that one.

I can confirm that, in the process of attempting to calibrate the extruder, it finished clogging and some black goo squeezed out of the top of the extrusion chamber / brass nozzle.

http://imgur.com/gallery/6m4PSy4/
http://i.imgur.com/6m4PSy4.jpg

So, for better and worse, I'm pretty sure this is a hot clog. Drat.
I'm looking for a sufficiently long 1.5mm hex driver, going by the video on "Unclogging Procedures" on the Solidoodle Wiki.

Edit: I eventually found  http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B002YNQRXU Bondhus 16099 1.5-10mm Extra Long Ball End L-Wrenches. The 1.5mm one is long enough for the Solidoodle 2 Pro extruder.

6 (edited by stvrbbns 2015-03-08 16:59:07)

Re: Sudden Print Failure

Okay, I think I've broken the clog using the 1.5mm hex driver. I've also calibrated the EEPROM extruder steps per mm by following the instructions in the solidoodletips wordpress blog post "Extruder Calibration" on 2012/08/09; I ended up dropping the steps from 138 to 112-114. I've started trying to print the 30mm Test Cube by MaverickCNC on thingiverse (thing:193342), but if I set the extrusion multiplier any higher than .7 then the printer makes a clicking/popping noise which I'm pretty sure is coming from the extruder. However, it's *also* not extruding enough material.

http://imgur.com/gallery/bmedjwK/new
http://i.imgur.com/bmedjwK.jpg

7

Re: Sudden Print Failure

I thought calibration was supposed to be done based on the default multiplier of 1. The firmware assumes this is the value the e-steps are being set for. If your e steps are correct then you should get the desired amount based on as 1.0 multiplier. You then can vary it per diffrrent tesults with diffrrent filament. Although the  correct method is to adjust yourvesteps pet new roll. That is why slicer has a place to plug in esteps and override the EEPROM settings. Then can set up profiles wit esteps for different rolls and vendors.

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8

Re: Sudden Print Failure

stvrbbns wrote:

Okay, I think I've broken the clog using the 1.5mm hex driver. I've also calibrated the EEPROM extruder steps per mm by following the instructions in the solidoodletips wordpress blog post "Extruder Calibration" on 2012/08/09; I ended up dropping the steps from 138 to 112-114. I've started trying to print the 30mm Test Cube by MaverickCNC on thingiverse (thing:193342), but if I set the extrusion multiplier any higher than .7 then the printer makes a clicking/popping noise which I'm pretty sure is coming from the extruder. However, it's *also* not extruding enough material (see Pinterest pin 455285843555825377).

And what temperature are you using?  That sound you describe is most definitely your extruder stripping on the filament.  Make sure you have enough tension on the tension arm.  The process IronMan described is correct.  I am questioning your numbers though.  Call for and measure 100 mm's there is just too much room for error at 10mm.  The steps per mm should be closer to 105-107.  This is an independent calibration and calculation from extrusion multiplier and should be done first.  It will not change regardless of the small diameter differences seen from roll to roll of filament.
Extrusion multiplier is a function of Slic3r and therefor used to later fine tune the extrusion width.
And is only added to the extrusion process during slicing.
This is the next step in the calibration process and will change from roll to roll even if the filament diameter is exactly the same.  This is where you create different slice profiles in Slic3r for different types of filament.  Mark the extrusion multiplier and temp right on each spool as well.  For every roll the very first thing I do is print a single perimeter 20mm cube with no top.  I adjust and measure until I achieve .48mm wall thickness (if using a.4 nozzle). 
I am sure there are many effective ways to make a printer yield decent results but this is the only proper and well documented process that I am aware of.  It may seem like a pain and a waste of filament and time to do this for each roll.  I assure you it will save you time and filament in the long run.
More directly to your issue of the clog.  Watch the temp chart the next time and ensure the temp is stable.  If it is try running a little hotter to see if that changes anything. 
The harsh reality is you have clog and may never completely clear it.  If you can't get it cleared you will be forced to remove it and soak in acetone or torch it clean.  The problem will be upon reassembly and you most likely will have clogging problems again shortly.  If that's the case I would seriously recommend switching over to an all metal hot end such as the E3d.  It is well documented and supported on your printer making it a fairly straight forward swap.
I hope this helps smile

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9

Re: Sudden Print Failure

carl_m1968 wrote:

I thought calibration was supposed to be done based on the default multiplier of 1. The firmware assumes this is the value the e-steps are being set for. If your e steps are correct then you should get the desired amount based on as 1.0 multiplier. You then can vary it per diffrrent tesults with diffrrent filament. Although the  correct method is to adjust yourvesteps pet new roll. That is why slicer has a place to plug in esteps and override the EEPROM settings. Then can set up profiles wit esteps for different rolls and vendors.

The extrusion multiplier on any particular Slic3r filament configuration/profile has no bearing on the manual extrude action. Correct? As such, I figure you first make sure the extruder is feeding the correct mm of filament in from the top [spool], then calibrate the extrusion multiplier based on what a filament actually prints out for a given command. I also don't see anything about e-steps in Slic3r configuration. Is that supposed to be on the Print, Filament, or Printer settings tab/profiles?

10

Re: Sudden Print Failure

That is correct you set e-steps it is a function of EEPROM and simply overrides the set firmware values.  It is not a part of the slice profile so you won't see it on any of those tabs.
The extrusion multiplier is in slic3r and is set by printing a single perimeter and measuring until the actual width equals .48 as stated in my previous post.

Printit Industries Model 8.10 fully enclosed CoreXY, Chamber heat
3-SD3's & a Workbench all fully enclosed, RH-Slic3r Win7pro, E3D V6, Volcano & Cyclops Hot End
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Thanks to all for your contributions

11

Re: Sudden Print Failure

carl_m1968 wrote:

I thought calibration was supposed to be done based on the default multiplier of 1. The firmware assumes this is the value the e-steps are being set for. If your e steps are correct then you should get the desired amount based on as 1.0 multiplier. You then can vary it per diffrrent tesults with diffrrent filament. Although the  correct method is to adjust yourvesteps pet new roll. That is why slicer has a place to plug in esteps and override the EEPROM settings. Then can set up profiles wit esteps for different rolls and vendors.

I have explained this countless times and if I have to again I might have a hemorrhage. I did a writeup here:
http://www.soliforum.com/post/83278/#p83278

12

Re: Sudden Print Failure

wardjr wrote:

And what temperature are you using?  That sound you describe is most definitely your extruder stripping on the filament.  Make sure you have enough tension on the tension arm.  The process IronMan described is correct.  I am questioning your numbers though.  Call for and measure 100 mm's there is just too much room for error at 10mm.  The steps per mm should be closer to 105-107.  This is an independent calibration and calculation from extrusion multiplier and should be done first.  It will not change regardless of the small diameter differences seen from roll to roll of filament.
Extrusion multiplier is a function of Slic3r and therefor used to later fine tune the extrusion width.
And is only added to the extrusion process during slicing.
This is the next step in the calibration process and will change from roll to roll even if the filament diameter is exactly the same.  This is where you create different slice profiles in Slic3r for different types of filament.  Mark the extrusion multiplier and temp right on each spool as well.  For every roll the very first thing I do is print a single perimeter 20mm cube with no top.  I adjust and measure until I achieve .48mm wall thickness (if using a.4 nozzle). 
I am sure there are many effective ways to make a printer yield decent results but this is the only proper and well documented process that I am aware of.  It may seem like a pain and a waste of filament and time to do this for each roll.  I assure you it will save you time and filament in the long run.
More directly to your issue of the clog.  Watch the temp chart the next time and ensure the temp is stable.  If it is try running a little hotter to see if that changes anything. 
The harsh reality is you have clog and may never completely clear it.  If you can't get it cleared you will be forced to remove it and soak in acetone or torch it clean.  The problem will be upon reassembly and you most likely will have clogging problems again shortly.  If that's the case I would seriously recommend switching over to an all metal hot end such as the E3d.  It is well documented and supported on your printer making it a fairly straight forward swap.
I hope this helps smile

I've tried using 202'C - 208'C for this. Normally I've used 200'C-202'C for printing.

I've taken off and returned the spring several times while trying to fix this. I currently have the end nut even with the end of the screw (as I believe I remember from ... something I read). Might the tension provided by that spring have changed? I could try tightening it to see what happens, although I would be concerned that if the clog isn't entirely cleared then forcing more filament into the nozzle will just make things worse.

I did command 100mm, measured using a straw as in the video in that solidoodletips blog post, twice. I did do that first before attempting to print the extrusion calibration cube (I appreciate the reinforcement that I understood the order correctly).

For the record: I have not seen any burnt/charred black come out of the extruder nozzle, although I might just not have been watching closely enough. What is the best way to know that it has been cleared?

About the E3D hotend replacement documentation, are you thinking of the E3D_extruder entry on soliwiki, or something else?

Thank you very much for your time and assistance.

13

Re: Sudden Print Failure

The WIKI is a good place to start as most of the info is still pertinent.  I was mostly referring to the fact that there are so many of us using the E3d's that the subject pops up frequently.  Also if you have questions there is always someone with a quick response.

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Thanks to all for your contributions

14

Re: Sudden Print Failure

wardjr wrote:

That is correct you set e-steps it is a function of EEPROM and simply overrides the set firmware values.  It is not a part of the slice profile so you won't see it on any of those tabs.
The extrusion multiplier is in slic3r and is set by printing a single perimeter and measuring until the actual width equals .48 as stated in my previous post.

I'm glad to hear that because it matches my current understanding.

Is there a best way to tell the printer to print a single perimeter? The only way I've encountered yet is to print a no-top cube or cylinder with a wall thickness of some target thickness. Is that the correct method? (i.e. should I create a cube with 0.48mm walls to print?)

Also, why 0.48mm when the default profiles use 0.42mm? Or have I misunderstood the "Extrusion Widths" under "Advanced" in Slic3r's "Print" profile configuration and that is actually a command of what it should be (aim for) rather than an input informing what it is?

15

Re: Sudden Print Failure

stvrbbns wrote:
wardjr wrote:

That is correct you set e-steps it is a function of EEPROM and simply overrides the set firmware values.  It is not a part of the slice profile so you won't see it on any of those tabs.
The extrusion multiplier is in slic3r and is set by printing a single perimeter and measuring until the actual width equals .48 as stated in my previous post.

I'm glad to hear that because it matches my current understanding.

Is there a best way to tell the printer to print a single perimeter? The only way I've encountered yet is to print a no-top cube or cylinder with a wall thickness of some target thickness. Is that the correct method? (i.e. should I create a cube with 0.48mm walls to print?)

Also, why 0.48mm when the default profiles use 0.42mm? Or have I misunderstood the "Extrusion Widths" under "Advanced" in Slic3r's "Print" profile configuration and that is actually a command of what it should be (aim for) rather than an input informing what it is?

You can just draw a solid cube 20x20x10 the. Slice it by selecting one perimeter and zero infill 1 bottom layer and no top layer.  This will give you a hallow cube with no top.
The .42 extrusion width is a leftover from when the SD's came with a .35mm nozzle.  They now have a .4 nozzle and 120% of nozzle diameter accounts for he die swell as the plastic leaves the nozzle.  SD needs to change that in the firmware along with the e steps that are way off.
You can get by without changing your extrusion widths but I don't reccomend it.  Just change them to .48 it helps with adhesion if you decrease the first layer width to say .36 this will create more tool paths that are closer together.

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Thanks to all for your contributions

16

Re: Sudden Print Failure

When your done printing that the wall should measure .48 if not adjust the extrusion multiplier accordingly.

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Thanks to all for your contributions

17

Re: Sudden Print Failure

jagowilson wrote:

I have explained this countless times and if I have to again I might have a hemorrhage. I did a writeup here:
http://www.soliforum.com/post/83278/#p83278

That is a wonderful writeup, jagowilson. Thanks for writing and providing the link!

That clarifies that I do in fact want the default profile extrusion widths of 0.42 because the nozzle is 0.35mm. However, I'm still not clear on how on requests a single perimeter (besides setting the Slic3r print profile to a minimum of 1 perimeter).

18

Re: Sudden Print Failure

wardjr wrote:

You can just draw a solid cube 20x20x10 the. Slice it by selecting one perimeter and zero infill 1 bottom layer and no top layer.  This will give you a hallow cube with no top.
The .42 extrusion width is a leftover from when the SD's came with a .35mm nozzle.  They now have a .4 nozzle and 120% of nozzle diameter accounts for he die swell as the plastic leaves the nozzle.  SD needs to change that in the firmware along with the e steps that are way off.
You can get by without changing your extrusion widths but I don't reccomend it.  Just change them to .48 it helps with adhesion if you decrease the first layer width to say .36 this will create more tool paths that are closer together.

Yes, I've had mine since 2012 and this is the first trouble I've had with it, so I still have the 0.35mm nozzle. That doesn't explain why the e-steps are so far off though.

The slicing options on the otherwise solid cube is brilliant. So obvious after you know that trick - I love it. Thanks!

19

Re: Sudden Print Failure

The e steps being way off is just a byproduct of using open source Marlin.  What ever the original designers printer needed is what he put in the firmware.  Because it is so easily adjusted in EEPROM no one has changed it.  SD worked around it by lowering the extrusion multiplier.  It isn't correct but sort of worked.
Yes you are correct if you have a .35 nozzle then set to .42 and calibrate the extrusion multiplier to that.

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Thanks to all for your contributions

20

Re: Sudden Print Failure

Okay. If I sufficiently increase the tension on the tension arm by screwing the nut further against the spring, then the clicking/popping noise stops. This also lets me repeatedly get 100mm of filament fed by 106 e-steps. I've since successfully printed out 2x 20mm single-perimeter wall extrusion calibration cubes.

The reason I printed 2 such cubes is that I found my Slic3r Printer profile had a 0.4mm nozzle while I was double checking. I'm pretty sure I remember ordering this thing with the .35mm nozzle. I think I may have increased it to 0.4mm so that the default 0.4mm Slic3r Print profile would work (since otherwise Slic3r crashes every time that the layer height is greater than the nozzle diameter) without having thought through why that number might be used. So I ran an extrusion calibration cube once each with 0.35mm nozzle + 0.42mm width setting and 0.4mm nozzle + 0.48 width setting. The 0.35mm nozzle settings produced a cube with 0.44mm walls whereas the 0.4mm nozzle settings produce a cube with 0.64mm walls (trying to carefully measure only the top 2-3 layers). I'm going to try sticking with the 0.35mm nozzle settings because the results look closest to what they should be.

However, the cubes do not look nearly as good as the test cube on cisana.net ("Extruder Calibration" Posted on August 16, 2013 by flurin). Both of my cubes start each layer under-extruded such that the "first" side is full of length-wise holes due to the extruded filament being too thing and spindly/wispy. The second and third sides look okay and the fourth side looks passable. I assume that is because the filament retracts and returns in between each layer. Is there a way to improve upon this, or is that a result of the likely-still-partially-clogged nozzle?

21

Re: Sudden Print Failure

This is where you adjust the extrusion multiplier.  Just for clarification for a .35 nozzle (which fits the age of your printer) you want a nozzle diameter of .35 and your extrusion widths set to .42
When you print the cube you then measure with a caliper and in Slic3r adjust extrusion multiplier until that wall thickness is actually .48  it should be set in the range of .7 - .9. If it is way off that mark then it is possible you are still fighting a clog.

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Thanks to all for your contributions

22 (edited by stvrbbns 2015-03-08 18:19:51)

Re: Sudden Print Failure

wardjr wrote:

This is where you adjust the extrusion multiplier.  Just for clarification for a .35 nozzle (which fits the age of your printer) you want a nozzle diameter of .35 and your extrusion widths set to .42
When you print the cube you then measure with a caliper and in Slic3r adjust extrusion multiplier until that wall thickness is actually .48  it should be set in the range of .7 - .9. If it is way off that mark then it is possible you are still fighting a clog.

Very good; I'm glad I understood that correctly. So, since I measured 0.44mm width (average between the second, third, and fourth sides) I've reduced the Slicer Filament profile extrusion multiplier from 1.0 to 0.95 (0.42 target divided by 0.44 actual) for this particular spool of filament.

Unfortunately, the build quality is still extremely poor / sickly / problematic:
http://imgur.com/gallery/OLhBh9K - small hollow pyramid
http://i.imgur.com/OLhBh9K.jpg

http://imgur.com/gallery/vOgAAuN - 15mm solid cube (20% honeycomb infill, 3 perimeters horizontal and vertical)
http://i.imgur.com/vOgAAuN.jpg

23

Re: Sudden Print Failure

If I remember correctly when I used the stock hot end with ABS I used a temp of 215.

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Thanks to all for your contributions

24

Re: Sudden Print Failure

Also want to mention that there are several other ways to attach an image that are more friendly than Pinterest.  So if you'd like me to be able to view them just attach the file or use imgur.

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Thanks to all for your contributions

25 (edited by stvrbbns 2015-03-08 15:35:18)

Re: Sudden Print Failure

wardjr wrote:

Also want to mention that there are several other ways to attach an image that are more friendly than Pinterest.  So if you'd like me to be able to view them just attach the file or use imgur.

I tried attaching and tried linking but the forum wouldn't let me do either, so I needed something where I could specify the image easily enough for someone to figure it out without actually writing a link. I assume that is a new-user limitation and will go away eventually.

Edit: In fact, that limitation appears to be gone now so I'll update my posts so they're more useful in the future.