1 Topic by doppler (edited by doppler 2014-05-16 11:39:39)

  • doppler
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2013-12-28
  • Posts: 32

Topic: Gaps in Print, don't understand...

I've had my Solidoodle 3 since last December, learned very much about configuring, calibrating and printing in general, was getting really good prints.

However now I'm not, and I don't understand what is going wrong.  See the file 2014-05-11 19.25.59.jpg see the gapping in the perimeters.  I do not get this gapping when I print the cube as a calibration cube, 1 perimeter no fill, prints just fine, and it's printing at 0.48mm as I want it to (0.40mm nozzel).

Second picture is of the top of the cube, it's almost perfect, no gaps, lack of fill... so I don't get why the side walls are so gappy....

Post's attachments

2014-05-11 19.25.59.jpg
2014-05-11 19.25.59.jpg 1.43 mb, file has never been downloaded. 

2014-05-11 19.27.34.jpg
2014-05-11 19.27.34.jpg 1.23 mb, file has never been downloaded. 

You don't have the permssions to download the attachments of this post.

2 Reply by wardjr

  • wardjr
  • wardjr
  • Moderator
  • Offline
  • From: Minnesota
  • Registered: 2013-06-10
  • Posts: 5,624

Re: Gaps in Print, don't understand...

When's the last time you lubed your z-rod and threads?  That's probably not the problem but start with the easy, obvious first.

Printit Industries Model 8.10 fully enclosed CoreXY, Chamber heat
3-SD3's & a Workbench all fully enclosed, RH-Slic3r Win7pro, E3D V6, Volcano & Cyclops Hot End
SSR/500W AC Heated Glass Bed, Linear bearings on SS rods. Direct Drive Y-axis, BulldogXL
Thanks to all for your contributions

wardjr's Website

3 Reply by doppler

  • doppler
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2013-12-28
  • Posts: 32

Re: Gaps in Print, don't understand...

wardjr wrote:

When's the last time you lubed your z-rod and threads?  That's probably not the problem but start with the easy, obvious first.

wardjr, thanks for the reply, you might be right, it's been a little while, and I used general purpose grease (black, fairly thick)... I also recently adjusted my voltages on my steppers as they were 3x the recommended settings.

And as well I have this  http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:89744 printed in ABS (I know it says pla) to try and reduce backlash, I suppose I should take it off and see what happens.

Speaking of lube, what is recommended, what I'm using can't be it.....

Thanks
Andrew

4 Reply by wardjr

  • wardjr
  • wardjr
  • Moderator
  • Offline
  • From: Minnesota
  • Registered: 2013-06-10
  • Posts: 5,624

Re: Gaps in Print, don't understand...

White lithium grease is recommended but you need very little.  On the threads I use regular oil just keep it off the plastic.  You can even use vegetable oil but same applies keep it off the plastic.  I have had backlash nuts bind before and prints came out just like yours.  Hope that helps.

Printit Industries Model 8.10 fully enclosed CoreXY, Chamber heat
3-SD3's & a Workbench all fully enclosed, RH-Slic3r Win7pro, E3D V6, Volcano & Cyclops Hot End
SSR/500W AC Heated Glass Bed, Linear bearings on SS rods. Direct Drive Y-axis, BulldogXL
Thanks to all for your contributions

wardjr's Website

5 Reply by doppler

  • doppler
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2013-12-28
  • Posts: 32

Re: Gaps in Print, don't understand...

wardjr wrote:

White lithium grease is recommended but you need very little.  On the threads I use regular oil just keep it off the plastic.  You can even use vegetable oil but same applies keep it off the plastic.  I have had backlash nuts bind before and prints came out just like yours.  Hope that helps.

Removing the backlash nut I had made seems to have made things better, I think I need to re-visit my Z stepper reference voltage and raise it a little.  I found the reference voltage for Y didn't quite cut it, so perhaps Z needs a slight kick up too.

Thanks for your help, now to find some white lithium grease... I have some in a spray can, but I suspect that's going to get messy, maybe i'll spray it into a container and brush it on....

Andrew

6 Reply by elmoret

  • elmoret
  • Filastruder
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2012-10-11
  • Posts: 6,048

Re: Gaps in Print, don't understand...

Spray onto rag, wipe on.

Filastruder - the robust, inexpensive filament extruder
E3Dv6 All Metal Hotend - the premier 3D printing hotend

7 Reply by grob

  • grob
  • grob
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Sydney, Australia
  • Registered: 2014-01-02
  • Posts: 900

Re: Gaps in Print, don't understand...

I've been using bicycle dry film lube on the z rod with some success. It tends not to pick up much muck like the grease does. I'm not using a backlash nut (yet) though, so not sure whether it's appropriate for the higher-friction of that setup.

SD3. Mk2b + glass, heated enclosure, GT2 belts, direct drive y shaft, linear bearings, bowden-feed E3D v5 w/ 0.9° stepper
Smoothieboard via Octoprint on RPi

8 Reply by wardjr

  • wardjr
  • wardjr
  • Moderator
  • Offline
  • From: Minnesota
  • Registered: 2013-06-10
  • Posts: 5,624

Re: Gaps in Print, don't understand...

I can honestly say I have never used white lithium grease.  I normally use LPS3 spray some on a rag and wipe the rods.  For the Z screw I use that and spray through the straw or I use oil.  Any old oil, remember oil guys?  You know the same stuff you put in your engines.  Just a drop will do ya.  I know elmoret will vouch for this, most people way over lube their printers.  Just the right amount in just the right places is all you need.  If it takes more than that you are just masking a bigger problem.  As far as VREF's I am wondering if you have a fan on the drivers?

Printit Industries Model 8.10 fully enclosed CoreXY, Chamber heat
3-SD3's & a Workbench all fully enclosed, RH-Slic3r Win7pro, E3D V6, Volcano & Cyclops Hot End
SSR/500W AC Heated Glass Bed, Linear bearings on SS rods. Direct Drive Y-axis, BulldogXL
Thanks to all for your contributions

wardjr's Website

9 Reply by elmoret

  • elmoret
  • Filastruder
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2012-10-11
  • Posts: 6,048

Re: Gaps in Print, don't understand...

wardjr wrote:

I know elmoret will vouch for this, most people way over lube their printers.

I've run 700 prints on my SD3, roughly 1000 hours of printing, have not added any lubrication at all.

Filastruder - the robust, inexpensive filament extruder
E3Dv6 All Metal Hotend - the premier 3D printing hotend

10 Reply by cckens

  • cckens
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2012-09-13
  • Posts: 591

Re: Gaps in Print, don't understand...

I'm with Tim, I've had mine for over a year and a half... no lube on any of the rods or screws.

11 Reply by doppler

  • doppler
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2013-12-28
  • Posts: 32

Re: Gaps in Print, don't understand...

Ok, cleaned off the old black grease, lightly used white lithium grease, all very smooth now.

Still printing the same.

So, watching it print, it literally lifts the filament up and then back down again, it's not the Z axis, there is slop on the extruder's carriage now, the need to pull filament, acceleration etc appears to be causing the issue. 

I was going to go to the carriage replacement, my linear bearings are enroute, but when I have a moment, probably wednesday I'll rip the carriage apart and put it back together to see if I can get it to be steadier.

Thanks for all your help, anyone seen this before?

Andrew

12 Reply by wardjr

  • wardjr
  • wardjr
  • Moderator
  • Offline
  • From: Minnesota
  • Registered: 2013-06-10
  • Posts: 5,624

Re: Gaps in Print, don't understand...

The little white blocks in the rear of the carriage are adjustable just don't tighten them up too much,

Printit Industries Model 8.10 fully enclosed CoreXY, Chamber heat
3-SD3's & a Workbench all fully enclosed, RH-Slic3r Win7pro, E3D V6, Volcano & Cyclops Hot End
SSR/500W AC Heated Glass Bed, Linear bearings on SS rods. Direct Drive Y-axis, BulldogXL
Thanks to all for your contributions

wardjr's Website

13 Reply by doppler

  • doppler
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2013-12-28
  • Posts: 32

Re: Gaps in Print, don't understand...

wardjr wrote:

The little white blocks in the rear of the carriage are adjustable just don't tighten them up too much,

Yup, already looked at it, it's main job is to let the carriage move a little the other way, and not the way I have slop, the bushing actually has space and movement on the smooth shaft.... maybe I can adjust the white block on top to push back some more.... but not tonight....

Thanks
  Andrew

14 Reply by doppler

  • doppler
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2013-12-28
  • Posts: 32

Re: Gaps in Print, don't understand...

doppler wrote:
wardjr wrote:

The little white blocks in the rear of the carriage are adjustable just don't tighten them up too much,

Yup, already looked at it, it's main job is to let the carriage move a little the other way, and not the way I have slop, the bushing actually has space and movement on the smooth shaft.... maybe I can adjust the white block on top to push back some more.... but not tonight....

Thanks
  Andrew

Well everything is tightened back up, problem still exists, it literally is printing a raised edge... I do not get it, it looks physically impossible, yet it's happening.... The only thing I can think of, and tell me if i'm crazy, is maybe the Extruder isn't extruding enough and it's stretching the filament and that is why it's popping up? 

Any other crazy ideas you guys can throw at me.... ?

Thanks
  Andrew

15 Reply by AZERATE (edited by AZERATE 2014-05-15 23:38:04)

  • AZERATE
  • AZERATE
  • PRINTiT
  • Offline
  • From: Chicago
  • Registered: 2013-11-28
  • Posts: 2,077

Re: Gaps in Print, don't understand...

How is your tension arm? If it is too loose, the bearing (to the right) will not turn at the same pace as the Nema gear. Thus, giving you random voids.
This is one thing I noticed whilst learning my machine.

EDIT: A dead giveaway of this would be stripping of filament in the extruder. This can also be a sign of a clog, but I don;t think this is the case with your problem.

Printit Mason and Printit Horizon printers
Multiple SD2s- Bulldog XL, E3D v5/v6/Lite6, Volcano, Hobb Goblin, Titan, .9 motor, Lawsy carriages, direct Y drive, fishing line...the list goes on
Filawinder and Filastruder #1870.....worth every penny!

16 Reply by doppler

  • doppler
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2013-12-28
  • Posts: 32

Re: Gaps in Print, don't understand...

AZERATE wrote:

How is your tension arm? If it is too loose, the bearing (to the right) will not turn at the same pace as the Nema gear. Thus, giving you random voids.
This is one thing I noticed whilst learning my machine.

EDIT: A dead giveaway of this would be stripping of filament in the extruder. This can also be a sign of a clog, but I don;t think this is the case with your problem.

It's not very tight, but not loose enough to skip from what I'm seeing.  I'm no sure it's actually gapping anymore, but where the gap is the extrusion is raised, I am actually seeing it when watching....   No grinding or plugs on the extruder, I'm used to handling those issues,


things I've changed, to no effect;

Raised the Extruder reference voltage to 0.355 from 0.192, definitely squirting more out, need to recalibrate... still have the gaps.
Raised the temp from 200 to 215 for the extruder... still gapping.... 
Slowed down the printer to 50%, standard perimeters were printing at 70mm/s, external perimeters at 35% at normal rate, I changed this during mid print, it seems better, not perfect, but better.....  I wouldn't think 70mm/s would be too fast for ABS perimeters?

Wondering if the filament is crap and this could be a result of that?  Going to try my roll of orange I got from a different vendor.

Thanks
  Andrew

17 Reply by doppler

  • doppler
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2013-12-28
  • Posts: 32

Re: Gaps in Print, don't understand...

doppler wrote:

It's not very tight, but not loose enough to skip from what I'm seeing.  I'm no sure it's actually gapping anymore, but where the gap is the extrusion is raised, I am actually seeing it when watching....   No grinding or plugs on the extruder, I'm used to handling those issues,


things I've changed, to no effect;

Raised the Extruder reference voltage to 0.355 from 0.192, definitely squirting more out, need to recalibrate... still have the gaps.
Raised the temp from 200 to 215 for the extruder... still gapping.... 
Slowed down the printer to 50%, standard perimeters were printing at 70mm/s, external perimeters at 35% at normal rate, I changed this during mid print, it seems better, not perfect, but better.....  I wouldn't think 70mm/s would be too fast for ABS perimeters?

Wondering if the filament is crap and this could be a result of that?  Going to try my roll of orange I got from a different vendor.

Thanks
  Andrew

Ok, orange has no positive effect, so it's not the filament... I guess thats a good thing....

Here's a new pic, I hope it shows better what I'm experiencing, I missed catching it before it put the next layer on top of the raised piece, but I think it's still pretty clear, the layer is there, not missing, just, higher, the nozzel is at the right height, I'm getting a great first layer for adhesion, and the z from everything I can tell isn't changing mid-layer.......  I'm going mad.....

Post's attachments

2014-05-15 21.04.31.jpg
2014-05-15 21.04.31.jpg 1.51 mb, file has never been downloaded. 

You don't have the permssions to download the attachments of this post.

18 Reply by AZERATE

  • AZERATE
  • AZERATE
  • PRINTiT
  • Offline
  • From: Chicago
  • Registered: 2013-11-28
  • Posts: 2,077

Re: Gaps in Print, don't understand...

I've experienced this before. Let us hope this is the same issue.

When you watch the print, does the filament lay down in place, but then raise into the place you'ce documented?
Another question: Do you have a case of some sort?

Printit Mason and Printit Horizon printers
Multiple SD2s- Bulldog XL, E3D v5/v6/Lite6, Volcano, Hobb Goblin, Titan, .9 motor, Lawsy carriages, direct Y drive, fishing line...the list goes on
Filawinder and Filastruder #1870.....worth every penny!

19 Reply by doppler

  • doppler
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2013-12-28
  • Posts: 32

Re: Gaps in Print, don't understand...

AZERATE wrote:

I've experienced this before. Let us hope this is the same issue.

When you watch the print, does the filament lay down in place, but then raise into the place you'ce documented?
Another question: Do you have a case of some sort?

I don't think it is lay down in place, I actually think it's attached at the diagonal with the previous laid down perimeter line on the same layer...  so I don't think it's bouncing up, or is a layer adhesion problem.  I think, happens so fast sometimes it's hard to say.

Yes I do have a case, made of dollarstore foamboard, the last few prints have been without, but it still does it with it, temp on large prints inside reach 40c with the case on.

Thanks
  Andrew

20 Reply by wardjr

  • wardjr
  • wardjr
  • Moderator
  • Offline
  • From: Minnesota
  • Registered: 2013-06-10
  • Posts: 5,624

Re: Gaps in Print, don't understand...

You could try reducing your layer height to something like .2963 and see if that helps.  I would guess that you have filament pulling on your extruder causing it to wobble or not extrude properly.

Printit Industries Model 8.10 fully enclosed CoreXY, Chamber heat
3-SD3's & a Workbench all fully enclosed, RH-Slic3r Win7pro, E3D V6, Volcano & Cyclops Hot End
SSR/500W AC Heated Glass Bed, Linear bearings on SS rods. Direct Drive Y-axis, BulldogXL
Thanks to all for your contributions

wardjr's Website

21 Reply by doppler

  • doppler
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2013-12-28
  • Posts: 32

Re: Gaps in Print, don't understand...

arrrghh...  Well, I found the problem, sliced the object via cura instead of slic3r, no problems.

Recently I stumbled on a thread that said that with a 0.40 nozzle the thinnest width should be configured for 0.48, where I had been following someone elses rule of 1.4 x layer height (0.42 for 0.30 and 0.35 for 0.2).  I was finding my prints a bit fraile especially when printing 0.2 height.  So it seems 0.48 is too wide and causing the occasional diagonal catch on the filament.

I really should keep a change log when I adjust things.....

I must really thank you all going through the process with me and your suggestions to help me bring it to resolution.

Now to determine my proper width, back to 0.42 (for all heights) for now....

Andrew

22 Reply by wardjr

  • wardjr
  • wardjr
  • Moderator
  • Offline
  • From: Minnesota
  • Registered: 2013-06-10
  • Posts: 5,624

Re: Gaps in Print, don't understand...

Your width should be .48 if you have a .40 nozzle.  You can change that for infill separate from perimeters.  As long as it's working that's all that matters but it sounds like your profiles need some tweaking.

Printit Industries Model 8.10 fully enclosed CoreXY, Chamber heat
3-SD3's & a Workbench all fully enclosed, RH-Slic3r Win7pro, E3D V6, Volcano & Cyclops Hot End
SSR/500W AC Heated Glass Bed, Linear bearings on SS rods. Direct Drive Y-axis, BulldogXL
Thanks to all for your contributions

wardjr's Website