1

Topic: Easy E3D question

So...after much recommendation, I will be ordering an E3D tomorrow at some point for my SD2. And the million dollar question is Direct or Bowden??
I am still new at this, so I don't really understand the purpose or benefit of either.

Thanks in advance to any who respond! smile

Printit Mason and Printit Horizon printers
Multiple SD2s- Bulldog XL, E3D v5/v6/Lite6, Volcano, Hobb Goblin, Titan, .9 motor, Lawsy carriages, direct Y drive, fishing line...the list goes on
Filawinder and Filastruder #1870.....worth every penny!

2

Re: Easy E3D question

You are currently running direct drive.  The bowden moves the extruder motor to a remote location and feeds the filament through a tube to the hot end.  I think you can use the bowden hotend in a direct drive set up.  (Tim should confirm this)
The only difference in the E3D is threads on the top for the tubing fitting.  So it is up to you but if you have no intentions of ever switching to the bowden style then just order the direct.

Printit Industries Model 8.10 fully enclosed CoreXY, Chamber heat
3-SD3's & a Workbench all fully enclosed, RH-Slic3r Win7pro, E3D V6, Volcano & Cyclops Hot End
SSR/500W AC Heated Glass Bed, Linear bearings on SS rods. Direct Drive Y-axis, BulldogXL
Thanks to all for your contributions

3

Re: Easy E3D question

The E3D grand master strikes again! smile
Thank you very much

Printit Mason and Printit Horizon printers
Multiple SD2s- Bulldog XL, E3D v5/v6/Lite6, Volcano, Hobb Goblin, Titan, .9 motor, Lawsy carriages, direct Y drive, fishing line...the list goes on
Filawinder and Filastruder #1870.....worth every penny!

4 (edited by rickq 2014-01-31 00:44:48)

Re: Easy E3D question

AZERATE wrote:

... the purpose or benefit of either.

The benefit of a bowden is lower mass directly coupled to the extruder.

The X-Y steppers currently have to accelerate and decelerate the mass of the the extruder stepper motor.  This slows the maximum reliable printing speed (to much acceleration and you may skip steps) and just puts extra, needless, wear on things.  If you remote mount the extruder stepper and feed the filament through a guide tube to the extruder everything runs more smoothly (less Doodle wobble).  It also has the side effect of reducing moire since the extra filament length acts like a shock absorber and damps out the pressure pulses that cause the moire pattern.

The down side is a slower reaction time when asking the extruder to extrude or retract (the shock absorber working against you).  The slower reaction time has the effect of making the prints "less crisp." Lags in the push pull of the filament cause variances in extrusion rate that show up as imperfections in the part.  Small issues, but they can be annoying.  Stringy bits due to slow retraction.  Blobs due to the subsequent extrusion of the incomplete retraction. Pinholes due to lags in extrusion.

The most accurate parts would come from a slow moving, geared head extruder mounted on the gantry.  Everything in life is a trade off.

5

Re: Easy E3D question

Thanks rickq! Direct feed seems to be my choice then. smile
However...could someone please define moire? I've searched and came up with less than squat.

Printit Mason and Printit Horizon printers
Multiple SD2s- Bulldog XL, E3D v5/v6/Lite6, Volcano, Hobb Goblin, Titan, .9 motor, Lawsy carriages, direct Y drive, fishing line...the list goes on
Filawinder and Filastruder #1870.....worth every penny!

6 (edited by rickq 2014-01-31 00:44:04)

Re: Easy E3D question

Moire is a repetitive pattern that shows up when two things that are constructed from many regular but discrete things are overlayed and misaligned.  That made no sense so here is an example:

Take two window screens and overlay them.  If the holes all line up it is like looking through one screen.  If the two screens are overlayed 1/2 hole off, it is like looking through a screen that is twice as dense.  If you rotate one screen just a tiny bit, a pattern is visible where some holes line up, some sort of line up and some are half blocked.  The pattern shows up as "bands" of "dark" and "light."  The number of bands increases as you further twist the screens.  This pattern is a moire.

The pattern that shows up on our prints is called moire by the community, but I have never convinced myself that that is the correct term.

The direct drive stepper extruder on our machines pushes on a very short bit of filament above the extruder barrel.  If you put your finger on the extruder you can feel it thump-thump as it extrudes.  The motion of the stepper is not smooth (You get what you pay for - the stepper/driver/software only has so many discrete steps.  It is not a servo.).  This thumping causes pressure pulses in the extruder that cause a cyclic variation in the rate material is extruded which causes repeated slight bumps on our parts.

The reason there is pattern to the bumps on our print is that the length of the complete extruder path on a layer is not often an even multiple of the distance between bumps.  So each time the extruder comes back around, the bumps are shifted a bit later (or earlier) in that place on the print.  A wavy pattern emerges.  It has been named a moire.  Whatever.

Getting ride of it on our extruders requires smoothing out the extruder pulses.  The easiest way to have the greatest effect is to get a 32 step extruder stepper driver (on older SDs they just popped off the motherboard - maybe not an option on newer machines?), and de-tune it so it was not putting out much torque, but was running much more smoothly - you just turn a tiny pot on the driver board.

Bowden extruders damp the pulses because the filament is a foot long running in the guide tube, not 1in. long directly coupled to the extruder.

7

Re: Easy E3D question

Not to beat a dead horse, but two screens of slightly differing pitch will show a moire even if aligned.  Watching a propeller spin slowly backward on film is another manifestation of the same thing.  The beating of a twin engine airplane if the rpms are not matched between the engines is a highly annoying audible version. Or tuning a guitar string by ear using another as a reference.  I'll shut up now.

8

Re: Easy E3D question

rickq wrote:

Not to beat a dead horse, but two screens of slightly differing pitch will show a moire even if aligned.  Watching a propeller spin slowly backward on film is another manifestation of the same thing.  The beating of a twin engine airplane if the rpms are not matched between the engines is a highly annoying audible version. Or tuning a guitar string by ear using another as a reference.  I'll shut up now.

Yep, the proverbial horse is dead.  Moire is that wavy pattern you see on the walls of your prints.  big_smile

Printit Industries Model 8.10 fully enclosed CoreXY, Chamber heat
3-SD3's & a Workbench all fully enclosed, RH-Slic3r Win7pro, E3D V6, Volcano & Cyclops Hot End
SSR/500W AC Heated Glass Bed, Linear bearings on SS rods. Direct Drive Y-axis, BulldogXL
Thanks to all for your contributions

9 (edited by adrian 2014-01-31 01:16:37)

Re: Easy E3D question

To give it some extra flogging to be sure.... Used in context as an adjective, I ain't got a problem with it - guess it depends also on the context of 'irregular' - irregular to the extruder or irregular to the print. Taken at the latter, its acceptable I would think....

Define:Moire wrote:

noun
noun: moire; plural noun: moires; noun: moiré; plural noun: moirés
1.
silk fabric that has been subjected to heat and pressure rollers after weaving to give it a rippled appearance.
"a backless dress fashioned out of moire in the new fashionable colour"
adjective
adjective: moire; adjective: moiré
1.
(of silk) having a rippled, lustrous finish.
having a pattern of irregular wavy lines like that of moire.
"another video picture defect is the flickering moiré effect seen on finely patterned surfaces"

But yes, it's only accurate in description of the effect, not causation - what you said about technical uses otherwise of the name moire is correct. smile

10

Re: Easy E3D question

adrian wrote:

To give it some extra flogging to be sure.... Used in context as an adjective, I ain't got a problem with it - guess it depends also on the context of 'irregular' - irregular to the extruder or irregular to the print. Taken at the latter, its acceptable I would think....

Define:Moire wrote:

noun
noun: moire; plural noun: moires; noun: moiré; plural noun: moirés
1.
silk fabric that has been subjected to heat and pressure rollers after weaving to give it a rippled appearance.
"a backless dress fashioned out of moire in the new fashionable colour"
adjective
adjective: moire; adjective: moiré
1.
(of silk) having a rippled, lustrous finish.
having a pattern of irregular wavy lines like that of moire.
"another video picture defect is the flickering moiré effect seen on finely patterned surfaces"

But yes, it's only accurate in description of the effect, not causation - what you said about technical uses otherwise of the name moire is correct. smile

So when is the last time you saw Moire on one of your prints big_smile

Printit Industries Model 8.10 fully enclosed CoreXY, Chamber heat
3-SD3's & a Workbench all fully enclosed, RH-Slic3r Win7pro, E3D V6, Volcano & Cyclops Hot End
SSR/500W AC Heated Glass Bed, Linear bearings on SS rods. Direct Drive Y-axis, BulldogXL
Thanks to all for your contributions

11

Re: Easy E3D question

Thank you very much! That was explained quite well smile
Last question...1.75 or 3? Any problems printing with 1.75 if one were to get a 3?
...trying to buy right now

Printit Mason and Printit Horizon printers
Multiple SD2s- Bulldog XL, E3D v5/v6/Lite6, Volcano, Hobb Goblin, Titan, .9 motor, Lawsy carriages, direct Y drive, fishing line...the list goes on
Filawinder and Filastruder #1870.....worth every penny!

12

Re: Easy E3D question

nevermind...did some probing and went with 1.75

Printit Mason and Printit Horizon printers
Multiple SD2s- Bulldog XL, E3D v5/v6/Lite6, Volcano, Hobb Goblin, Titan, .9 motor, Lawsy carriages, direct Y drive, fishing line...the list goes on
Filawinder and Filastruder #1870.....worth every penny!

13

Re: Easy E3D question

OK. New series of questions!
After reading the steps on Soliwiki
1) I will be going the route of buying a new thermister. Can anyone think of a site that does not have the rediculous wait/shipping charge Solidoodle does?
2) Upgrading the power supply. I purchased the Pro SD2 which has an "upgraded" brick, but I assume I need a better one? Any links for one?
2.5) Is upgrading the supply ABSOLUTELY critical? Pros and cons?
3) I already have the hand tools, mk5, and Kapton needed. Anything else you can think of I may need? Keep in mind I would like to make this conversion as simple as possible while keeping my stock items as an emergency rig.

Thanks again in advance!

Printit Mason and Printit Horizon printers
Multiple SD2s- Bulldog XL, E3D v5/v6/Lite6, Volcano, Hobb Goblin, Titan, .9 motor, Lawsy carriages, direct Y drive, fishing line...the list goes on
Filawinder and Filastruder #1870.....worth every penny!

14 (edited by spapadim 2014-02-03 22:09:26)

Re: Easy E3D question

1. Thermistor is included (as is pretty much everything, even Allen key for set screw..!)
2. FWIW, I was running it for a few weeks on the "pro" brick, without issues (recorded ~8.5A max on PSU output with everything on, using clamp meter).
3. Can't think of anything (might need some extra Kapton tape, in case you mess up first time, but you have that already). The only thing that I used additionally was some silver thermal compound, but that's probably just because I had it lying around. smile

Edit: oh, yes: connectors for heater and thermistor leads. If you go with MTA100s, note that gender is *not* the same (I made this mistake).

15

Re: Easy E3D question

Thank you, good sir!
The thermal compound you just used as a sealant over using kapton? (still learning the steps over here)
I am still a bit nervous as to how to connect the wires...I am in no way an electrically inclinded individual, so what connectors should I get to connect to my stocks coming from my board? Any link? Hell, even a name would work. smile

Printit Mason and Printit Horizon printers
Multiple SD2s- Bulldog XL, E3D v5/v6/Lite6, Volcano, Hobb Goblin, Titan, .9 motor, Lawsy carriages, direct Y drive, fishing line...the list goes on
Filawinder and Filastruder #1870.....worth every penny!

16

Re: Easy E3D question

? I just received a new thermistor for the E3D,it did not come with bootlace ferruels( I use the orginal already). I cant't find any that small locally. Any suggestion for a substitute? Could I solder the wires?

SD3, E3D hotend,linear bearing on x/y axis',pillow block bearing on y conneting rod, ball bearngs on front y axis, fan on y stepper motor.

17

Re: Easy E3D question

Solder is not the best but will work if you keep it away from the heat of the hot end.  I have actually just looped them and twisted then pull tight and wrap it with Kapton.  Who did you order from? I bet they would be willing to send those out to you.

Printit Industries Model 8.10 fully enclosed CoreXY, Chamber heat
3-SD3's & a Workbench all fully enclosed, RH-Slic3r Win7pro, E3D V6, Volcano & Cyclops Hot End
SSR/500W AC Heated Glass Bed, Linear bearings on SS rods. Direct Drive Y-axis, BulldogXL
Thanks to all for your contributions

18

Re: Easy E3D question

satman49 wrote:

? I just received a new thermistor for the E3D,it did not come with bootlace ferruels( I use the orginal already). I cant't find any that small locally. Any suggestion for a substitute? Could I solder the wires?

I'm about 80% done assembling my E3D (just need heat shrink and AWG connectors) and I think I understand how this works...
While you can solder, it is typically a weak joint, and may break during the print since you are mounting it to a section that moves in two directions. You slide the furrels onto hooked wires so when you crimp, it creates a solid bond. Heat shrinking is to secure it further.

Printit Mason and Printit Horizon printers
Multiple SD2s- Bulldog XL, E3D v5/v6/Lite6, Volcano, Hobb Goblin, Titan, .9 motor, Lawsy carriages, direct Y drive, fishing line...the list goes on
Filawinder and Filastruder #1870.....worth every penny!

19

Re: Easy E3D question

satman49 wrote:

? I just received a new thermistor for the E3D,it did not come with bootlace ferruels( I use the orginal already). I cant't find any that small locally. Any suggestion for a substitute? Could I solder the wires?

You can solder them as long as you keep them cool, or I can send you some.

Radioshack probably has something that would work.

20 (edited by elmoret 2014-02-10 23:15:24)

Re: Easy E3D question

AZERATE wrote:
satman49 wrote:

? I just received a new thermistor for the E3D,it did not come with bootlace ferruels( I use the orginal already). I cant't find any that small locally. Any suggestion for a substitute? Could I solder the wires?

I'm about 80% done assembling my E3D (just need heat shrink and AWG connectors) and I think I understand how this works...
While you can solder, it is typically a weak joint, and may break during the print since you are mounting it to a section that moves in two directions. You slide the furrels onto hooked wires so when you crimp, it creates a solid bond. Heat shrinking is to secure it further.

It isn't about mechanical strength, it is about temperature. Print temps can exceed the melting point of solder.

21

Re: Easy E3D question

elmoret wrote:

It isn't about mechanical strength, it is about temperature. Print temps can excepted the melting point of solder.

This shows my skill level of soldering, doesn't it? lol
But you are 100% on the temperature...forgot to type it in.
BTW, I recently ordered my E3D through Filastruder. You...are...awesome!
Hats off

Printit Mason and Printit Horizon printers
Multiple SD2s- Bulldog XL, E3D v5/v6/Lite6, Volcano, Hobb Goblin, Titan, .9 motor, Lawsy carriages, direct Y drive, fishing line...the list goes on
Filawinder and Filastruder #1870.....worth every penny!

22 (edited by adrian 2014-02-11 00:07:13)

Re: Easy E3D question

http://www.ferrulesdirect.com/  ; something like http://www.ferrulesdirect.com/terminal/ … /SK400.htm would be handy to have around

Soldering within a few inches of the hotend will result in premature failure.. got zip to do with mechanical strength and entirely about the temp as Elmoret stated (leaded solder melt point can be from 220-250, well below the temp of the hotend). If you are going to do it - use leadfree at least as its higher melt point helps... but it is high unadvised to do this unless you take further precautions such as using a proper splice such as a western union splice to prevent failure, heatshrink to provide token insulation, and some vidaflex or equivalent to provide further insulation/abrasion resistance.

But its far easier to use a Ferrule wink

In a pinch, I've used http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=PT4433 ; the plastic is just melt-joined onto the ferrule and easily snipped away leaving a classic uninsulated bootlace ferrule.

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Re: Easy E3D question

adrian, I bet you could get the solder point up into the E3D's airflow!

24

Re: Easy E3D question

lol I Mcgavered some , cut  some pieces out of a soup can.

SD3, E3D hotend,linear bearing on x/y axis',pillow block bearing on y conneting rod, ball bearngs on front y axis, fan on y stepper motor.