1 Topic by Rocketman

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Topic: Layer Lines

I have been playing around with the step motor, filament width, and extrusion multipler to try to get them right. I am not sure if my eyes have gotten all fuzzy since I've last printed something, but do these look adequate in most people's opinions, or are their calibrations I should still make? I am not sure if the layer lines are more clear because it is a medium gray filament and some differences in heat seperated the filament dyes to make white layers too. I was thinking of painting it gold to see if I could still notice anything.

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2 Reply by Briggs

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Re: Layer Lines

What layer height are you printing at?

3 Reply by Rocketman

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Re: Layer Lines

Briggs wrote:

What layer height are you printing at?

0.1mm LH and 0.3 infill

4 Reply by spapadim (edited by spapadim 2013-11-29 16:00:57)

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Re: Layer Lines

Depends what the scale of the print is. It looks like scaled down significantly, and perhaps lightly sanded?  If so, this looks excellent to me.

If you want no layer lines, you'll have to do more finishing (acetone, filler, and/or sanding), with any FFF printer, eg:
http://www.makerbot.com/blog/2012/04/30 … echniques/

With 0.2LH, I start with 140 grit, and go up to at least 600 grit wet -- order of an hour, doing it slowly.

Btw, an aside, for bonding pieces, these days I mostly use friction welding, takes some practice to do right (avoid chipping off pieces, get even width bond line, etc) but, even with hands as unsteady as mine, it eventually works great!
http://makezine.com/projects/make-34/sk … d-objects/

5 Reply by Briggs

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Re: Layer Lines

What extrusion width? Nozzle?

6 Reply by IanJohnson

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Re: Layer Lines

That looks like some bad Z banding.  It only does this when there is infill, or all the time?  If it only happens when there is infill, it could be that the motion of printing the infill causes the bed to rock.  Do you have the wood bed or the aluminum?  If you have aluminum and the springs are long, the bed can rock a little bit.  Leveling the bed with the springs compressed most of the way will make it more stable.

If the banding happens all of the time, I would blame the Z rod.

7 Reply by ITman496

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Re: Layer Lines

I know its a flaw, but it makes it look like it has a really awesome wood grain, heh..

8 Reply by spapadim (edited by spapadim 2013-11-30 03:10:31)

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Re: Layer Lines

ITman496 wrote:

I know its a flaw, but it makes it look like it has a really awesome wood grain, heh..

Oh, it's not miniature scale, lightly sanded? Doh.. (and I was even thinking "no gaps or mess at such a tiny scale, how..  amazing macro too.." -- feel quite stupid..). But this has to be the best looking photo of z-banding I've ever seen!  smile

9 Reply by Rocketman

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Re: Layer Lines

spapadim wrote:

Depends what the scale of the print is. It looks like scaled down significantly, and perhaps lightly sanded?  If so, this looks excellent to me.

If you want no layer lines, you'll have to do more finishing (acetone, filler, and/or sanding), with any FFF printer, eg:
http://www.makerbot.com/blog/2012/04/30 … echniques/

With 0.2LH, I start with 140 grit, and go up to at least 600 grit wet -- order of an hour, doing it slowly.

Btw, an aside, for bonding pieces, these days I mostly use friction welding, takes some practice to do right (avoid chipping off pieces, get even width bond line, etc) but, even with hands as unsteady as mine, it eventually works great!
http://makezine.com/projects/make-34/sk … d-objects/

I did sand very lightly for like 2 minutes before I realized it wasn't helping much. I scaled it down to .75 I think.

10 Reply by Rocketman

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Re: Layer Lines

Briggs wrote:

What extrusion width? Nozzle?

The standard .4mm nozzle.

11 Reply by Rocketman

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Re: Layer Lines

IanJohnson wrote:

That looks like some bad Z banding.  It only does this when there is infill, or all the time?  If it only happens when there is infill, it could be that the motion of printing the infill causes the bed to rock.  Do you have the wood bed or the aluminum?  If you have aluminum and the springs are long, the bed can rock a little bit.  Leveling the bed with the springs compressed most of the way will make it more stable.

If the banding happens all of the time, I would blame the Z rod.

Only with infill. I thought you said before it isn't refered to as Z banding if it has to do with whether or not there is infill? I don't think there is any wood in the print bed.

12 Reply by adrian (edited by adrian 2013-11-30 05:55:39)

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Re: Layer Lines

only with infil suggests it might actually be 'overshoot'.

Check belt tensions and also try slowing your print down as much as it might hurt to slide to the left on that speed slider... But this will tell you quickly if its overshoot (acceleration/speed related) or not...

Could also be a loose carriage - infill is much quicker and the jerky movements can cause rocking - check the teflon block at the rear of the x-carriage is snug but not tight - it needs a tiny bit of play to prevent binding..

also check extruder and that zip-tie are tight - again rocking extruder can cause banding

13 Reply by Rocketman

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Re: Layer Lines

adrian wrote:

only with infil suggests it might actually be 'overshoot'.

Check belt tensions and also try slowing your print down as much as it might hurt to slide to the left on that speed slider... But this will tell you quickly if its overshoot (acceleration/speed related) or not...

Could also be a loose carriage - infill is much quicker and the jerky movements can cause rocking - check the teflon block at the rear of the x-carriage is snug but not tight - it needs a tiny bit of play to prevent binding..

also check extruder and that zip-tie are tight - again rocking extruder can cause banding


I don't think anything appears practicularly wabbly. I tightened the Y carriage belts a little. How do I change the speed of the print job without effecting anything else? Also when adjusting the extrusion multiplier it seems I have to choose between there being too little extrusion and the webbing being slightly visible through the top 3 layers at the end of a print, or so much that it increases the visibility of the layer lines.

When I run my finger nail down the sides of this model it feels roughly the same as the all white version of the same print that I made much closer to when I got the machine. Could it just be the color that makes it look worst than it is?

14 Reply by adrian

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Re: Layer Lines

Just print as per normal with the profile you use - adjust the "Feedrate" slider in RH down to say 50% and see what happens.

15 Reply by Rocketman

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Re: Layer Lines

adrian wrote:

Just print as per normal with the profile you use - adjust the "Feedrate" slider in RH down to say 50% and see what happens.

The feedrate? Wouldn't that be the same as adjusting the extrusion multiplier under filament options? What does that have to do with the speed of the carriage?

16 Reply by adrian (edited by adrian 2013-12-02 06:50:59)

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Re: Layer Lines

Rocketman wrote:
adrian wrote:

Just print as per normal with the profile you use - adjust the "Feedrate" slider in RH down to say 50% and see what happens.

The feedrate? Wouldn't that be the same as adjusting the extrusion multiplier under filament options? What does that have to do with the speed of the carriage?

Nope. "Flowrate" acts as the realtime adjust for the multiplier.

"Feedrate" is the correct CNC term for 'linear motion speed' - for some reason thats what they chose for the slider in RH too where everwhere else they use the more lay reference 'speed'... *shrug*

17 Reply by spapadim

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Re: Layer Lines

Trying slower federate is worth a shot, but isn't this too regular to be overshoot? Also, worth knowing: are the ridges on opposite sides of the print in-sync (ie when there is an outward ridge on one side, there is an inward valley on the opposite side, at the same z-height), or the opposite (ie there is also an outward ridge on the opposite side, kind of like the Michelin man smile -- the latter would suggest z-wobble. Also, FWIW, when I do single-wall test prints, the wobble is *much* less visible (my theory is that there isn't any neighbouring material, so layers sort of align to an extent), so it's *possible* wobble is consistent with the "infill only" observation. One thing I never tried is the "outer perimeters first" in Slic3r... Just my 2c.

18 Reply by Rocketman

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Re: Layer Lines

spapadim wrote:

Trying slower federate is worth a shot, but isn't this too regular to be overshoot? Also, worth knowing: are the ridges on opposite sides of the print in-sync (ie when there is an outward ridge on one side, there is an inward valley on the opposite side, at the same z-height), or the opposite (ie there is also an outward ridge on the opposite side, kind of like the Michelin man smile -- the latter would suggest z-wobble. Also, FWIW, when I do single-wall test prints, the wobble is *much* less visible (my theory is that there isn't any neighbouring material, so layers sort of align to an extent), so it's *possible* wobble is consistent with the "infill only" observation. One thing I never tried is the "outer perimeters first" in Slic3r... Just my 2c.

There ae no valleys as best I can tell. Just ridges all the way around each line. I assume the farther in areas are the proper girth and not really valleys.

19 Reply by spapadim

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Re: Layer Lines

Maybe others want to offer 2nd opinion (never had overshoot issues myself, so no direct experience), but consistent ridges *all around* the print sounds very much like wobble to me. Do you have any anti backlash fix on the z axis?

20 Reply by Rocketman

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Re: Layer Lines

spapadim wrote:

Maybe others want to offer 2nd opinion (never had overshoot issues myself, so no direct experience), but consistent ridges *all around* the print sounds very much like wobble to me. Do you have any anti backlash fix on the z axis?

I'm not sure what that is. I think I might have seen people print 3D shapes that help to stabilize the Z Rod, but I am not sure how those might work.

21 Reply by spapadim (edited by spapadim 2013-12-04 15:05:30)

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Re: Layer Lines

Ah... here is a start (with further links):
   http://www.soliwiki.com/Banding

I made this for backlash (but there are *many* other options, partial list here under anti-backlash devices--this is probably one of the easiest, but it may not work for everyone), and I also use firmware compensation (report here).

Quick terminology: Backlash = motion error due to clearance gap between nut and rod threads, Wobble = motion error caused by bent or slightly off-center rods.  If you have backlash, then the wobble will be more pronounced, because the nut has more room for movement.  I guess I was reasonably lucky with my Z-rod, so after dealing with backlash I didn't have much wobble.

22 Reply by spapadim (edited by spapadim 2013-12-04 15:58:51)

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Re: Layer Lines

Also, one thing that might be worth a shot first: reduce feedrate (so filament can cool down) *and* do outer perimeters first. Never tried it while I had the banding issues... Just a thought.

23 Reply by Rocketman

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Re: Layer Lines

spapadim wrote:

Also, one thing that might be worth a shot first: reduce feedrate (so filament can cool down) *and* do outer perimeters first. Never tried it while I had the banding issues... Just a thought.


I am running a print now. I thought it was the flowrate I reduce down? How can I get the software that compensates?

24 Reply by sgmorton

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Re: Layer Lines

First thing I would try is setting the Z-Lift to .2 in RepetierHost under printer setting. This will lift the Z a bit on each move helping to not squish molten plastic around on the perimeters. If it's already got Z-Lift then I would look at an Well Nut  for anti-backlash on the z-rod. You can get one at Lowes for less than $2.  I would post a link but the forum is telling I have no permission...

soliforum  dot com/topic/2341/poor-mans-antibacklash-nut-no-assembly-required/

Can someone help me out with a real link please...

Sam

25 Reply by wardjr

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Re: Layer Lines

Do you mean re-post the link or that you need help posting links?  You have to have some magic number of posts to post a link.
http://www.soliforum.com/topic/2341/poo … -required/

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