1 Topic by pirvan

  • pirvan
  • pirvan
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: San Francisco
  • Registered: 2013-03-27
  • Posts: 1,797

Topic: Surface quality & extrusion issues

So for the past couple of months I've ben struggling with the quality of the vertical surfaces of my prints. 

Ever since I put an all metal hot end on my SD3 I haven't been able to dial it in to get clean prints.  The hot end is NOT an E3D, it's some kind of a clone.  I have no mechanical issues with it, it extrudes fine, no jams or anything, and the top surfaces it produces are superior to the top surfaces I was getting from my original MG PLus.

However, vertical surfaces are simply horrible.  I calibrated the extrusion multiplier, I adjusted vRef (by feel), tried all kinds of permutations of extrusion temps, speeds, retraction, Z-Hop, you name it, it still sucks.

Dimensionally, it produces accurate models, and when printing mechanical type objects, it's fine, but on finely detailed models like the one in the photos, it simply won't cut it.

Besides looking scruffy, the material also looks "dry" (dull and "sandy" looking).  But the top surfaces look nice, smooth and shiny.

Any comments and suggestions (other than "you should have bought an E3D") would be appreciated. 

Thanks.

http://www.soliforum.com/misc.php?action=pun_attachment&item=9252

Post's attachments

Quality issues.jpg
Quality issues.jpg 446.13 kb, file has never been downloaded. 

You don't have the permssions to download the attachments of this post.
To print or, 3D print, that is the question...
SD3 printer w/too many mods,  Printrbot Simple Maker Ed.,  FormLabs Form 1+
AnyCubic Photon, Shining 3D EinScan-S & Atlas 3D scanners...
...and too much time on my hands.

2 Reply by carl_m1968

  • carl_m1968
  • carl_m1968
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Far North almost not Dallas
  • Registered: 2014-10-17
  • Posts: 6,512

Re: Surface quality & extrusion issues

What speed are you printing at. That looks like under extrusion based on speed as in it being too fast for your temp snd layer height. Instead of letting the layer lay naturally it is being stretched slightly which is giving it that dry sandy look.

Printing since 2009 and still love it!
Anycubic 4MAX best $225 ever invested.
Voxelabs Proxima SLA. 6 inch 2k Mono LCD.
Anycubic Predator, massive Delta machine. 450 x 370 print envelope.

3 Reply by AZERATE

  • AZERATE
  • AZERATE
  • PRINTiT
  • Offline
  • From: Chicago
  • Registered: 2013-11-28
  • Posts: 2,077

Re: Surface quality & extrusion issues

What does the temp chart look like during the print?

Printit Mason and Printit Horizon printers
Multiple SD2s- Bulldog XL, E3D v5/v6/Lite6, Volcano, Hobb Goblin, Titan, .9 motor, Lawsy carriages, direct Y drive, fishing line...the list goes on
Filawinder and Filastruder #1870.....worth every penny!

4 Reply by wardjr

  • wardjr
  • wardjr
  • Moderator
  • Offline
  • From: Minnesota
  • Registered: 2013-06-10
  • Posts: 5,624

Re: Surface quality & extrusion issues

I'd focus on temps also.

Printit Industries Model 8.10 fully enclosed CoreXY, Chamber heat
3-SD3's & a Workbench all fully enclosed, RH-Slic3r Win7pro, E3D V6, Volcano & Cyclops Hot End
SSR/500W AC Heated Glass Bed, Linear bearings on SS rods. Direct Drive Y-axis, BulldogXL
Thanks to all for your contributions

wardjr's Website

5 Reply by pirvan

  • pirvan
  • pirvan
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: San Francisco
  • Registered: 2013-03-27
  • Posts: 1,797

Re: Surface quality & extrusion issues

carl_m1968 wrote:

What speed are you printing at. That looks like under extrusion based on speed as in it being too fast for your temp snd layer height. Instead of letting the layer lay naturally it is being stretched slightly which is giving it that dry sandy look.

I'm not printing fast at all.  Here is a screenshot of my settings, which is what I used for this model.  The extrusion temperature is usually 220°C, but for this particular filament was set at 230°C.

http://www.soliforum.com/misc.php?action=pun_attachment&item=9253

Post's attachments

Cura Settings 1.jpg
Cura Settings 1.jpg 193.22 kb, file has never been downloaded. 

You don't have the permssions to download the attachments of this post.
To print or, 3D print, that is the question...
SD3 printer w/too many mods,  Printrbot Simple Maker Ed.,  FormLabs Form 1+
AnyCubic Photon, Shining 3D EinScan-S & Atlas 3D scanners...
...and too much time on my hands.

6 Reply by carl_m1968

  • carl_m1968
  • carl_m1968
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Far North almost not Dallas
  • Registered: 2014-10-17
  • Posts: 6,512

Re: Surface quality & extrusion issues

Have you confirmed your reported temp is accurate. You may be running well below what you think you are.

Printing since 2009 and still love it!
Anycubic 4MAX best $225 ever invested.
Voxelabs Proxima SLA. 6 inch 2k Mono LCD.
Anycubic Predator, massive Delta machine. 450 x 370 print envelope.

7 Reply by carl_m1968

  • carl_m1968
  • carl_m1968
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Far North almost not Dallas
  • Registered: 2014-10-17
  • Posts: 6,512

Re: Surface quality & extrusion issues

pirvan wrote:
carl_m1968 wrote:

What speed are you printing at. That looks like under extrusion based on speed as in it being too fast for your temp snd layer height. Instead of letting the layer lay naturally it is being stretched slightly which is giving it that dry sandy look.

I'm not printing fast at all.  Here is a screenshot of my settings, which is what I used for this model.  The extrusion temperature is usually 220°C, but for this particular filament was set at 230°C.

http://www.soliforum.com/misc.php?action=pun_attachment&item=9253

This says you are printing at 50mm/s. That is extremely fast for a .1 layer height. You need to raise your temp more and confirm it is accurate. You should also be printing at 30mm/s or lower for s .1 layer.

Printing since 2009 and still love it!
Anycubic 4MAX best $225 ever invested.
Voxelabs Proxima SLA. 6 inch 2k Mono LCD.
Anycubic Predator, massive Delta machine. 450 x 370 print envelope.

8 Reply by pirvan

  • pirvan
  • pirvan
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: San Francisco
  • Registered: 2013-03-27
  • Posts: 1,797

Re: Surface quality & extrusion issues

AZERATE wrote:

What does the temp chart look like during the print?

If by Temp Chart you're referring to the temp curve, here it is.  This is a 5 minute window about half way into the print.

It looks a little jaggy, probably because the extruder is currently PID'd for 220°C, not 230°C.  However the largest deviation is no more than ±1°C

http://www.soliforum.com/misc.php?action=pun_attachment&item=9254

Post's attachments

Temp Log 1.jpg 223.99 kb, file has never been downloaded. 

You don't have the permssions to download the attachments of this post.
To print or, 3D print, that is the question...
SD3 printer w/too many mods,  Printrbot Simple Maker Ed.,  FormLabs Form 1+
AnyCubic Photon, Shining 3D EinScan-S & Atlas 3D scanners...
...and too much time on my hands.

9 Reply by AZERATE

  • AZERATE
  • AZERATE
  • PRINTiT
  • Offline
  • From: Chicago
  • Registered: 2013-11-28
  • Posts: 2,077

Re: Surface quality & extrusion issues

Temp curve, yup! Sorry...long week tongue
I would recommend performing your PID tuning then go from there. If the fan on the hotend is active and your temp is true, then we can move to another consideration.

I am not attempting to tell you you should have done anything. It's your money, spend it however makes you happy! But the clones have been reported to give off odd, erratic, poor, or even dangerous results. It could be a fine tuning needed, or even poor tolerances from the manufacturer.
Keep us posted!

Printit Mason and Printit Horizon printers
Multiple SD2s- Bulldog XL, E3D v5/v6/Lite6, Volcano, Hobb Goblin, Titan, .9 motor, Lawsy carriages, direct Y drive, fishing line...the list goes on
Filawinder and Filastruder #1870.....worth every penny!

10 Reply by pirvan

  • pirvan
  • pirvan
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: San Francisco
  • Registered: 2013-03-27
  • Posts: 1,797

Re: Surface quality & extrusion issues

carl_m1968 wrote:

This says you are printing at 50mm/s. That is extremely fast for a .1 layer height. You need to raise your temp more and confirm it is accurate. You should also be printing at 30mm/s or lower for s .1 layer.

Regarding speed, before the hot end change, I used to print routinely at 60-65mm/sec at .1mm layers (I seldom print anything other than .1mm layers).  Why I dialed the speed down since I got this hot end, I don't really know.

Regarding temps.  I only have an IR thermometer, and frankly I don't put a lot of stock in its accuracy, but according to it, my temps are 187°C, when thermistor reports 230°C

To print or, 3D print, that is the question...
SD3 printer w/too many mods,  Printrbot Simple Maker Ed.,  FormLabs Form 1+
AnyCubic Photon, Shining 3D EinScan-S & Atlas 3D scanners...
...and too much time on my hands.

11 Reply by pirvan

  • pirvan
  • pirvan
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: San Francisco
  • Registered: 2013-03-27
  • Posts: 1,797

Re: Surface quality & extrusion issues

AZERATE wrote:

Temp curve, yup! Sorry...long week tongue
I would recommend performing your PID tuning then go from there. If the fan on the hotend is active and your temp is true, then we can move to another consideration.

I am not attempting to tell you you should have done anything. It's your money, spend it however makes you happy! But the clones have been reported to give off odd, erratic, poor, or even dangerous results. It could be a fine tuning needed, or even poor tolerances from the manufacturer.
Keep us posted!

OK, since you brought it up, how does poor tolerances affect the quality of the print?

I can understand clogs, jams, or other mechanical issues, but I don't have any of those problems. 

I have an issue that creates poor quality outer surfaces, but produces very good quality top surfaces.  Basically the outer perimeter of my prints isn't smooth.

To print or, 3D print, that is the question...
SD3 printer w/too many mods,  Printrbot Simple Maker Ed.,  FormLabs Form 1+
AnyCubic Photon, Shining 3D EinScan-S & Atlas 3D scanners...
...and too much time on my hands.

12 Reply by wardjr

  • wardjr
  • wardjr
  • Moderator
  • Offline
  • From: Minnesota
  • Registered: 2013-06-10
  • Posts: 5,624

Re: Surface quality & extrusion issues

Basically, and this is all I wish to say about it, the interior isn't as polished.  For whatever reason it causes what you are seeing.  Whereas your top layer smoothness is dictated by the exterior of the nozzle.

Printit Industries Model 8.10 fully enclosed CoreXY, Chamber heat
3-SD3's & a Workbench all fully enclosed, RH-Slic3r Win7pro, E3D V6, Volcano & Cyclops Hot End
SSR/500W AC Heated Glass Bed, Linear bearings on SS rods. Direct Drive Y-axis, BulldogXL
Thanks to all for your contributions

wardjr's Website

13 Reply by jagowilson

  • jagowilson
  • PRINTiT
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2014-09-14
  • Posts: 1,701

Re: Surface quality & extrusion issues

wardjr means the inside of the heatbreak specifically. A good test would be PLA; if the heatbreak isn't well polished it will jam quick.

14 Reply by pirvan

  • pirvan
  • pirvan
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: San Francisco
  • Registered: 2013-03-27
  • Posts: 1,797

Re: Surface quality & extrusion issues

Hmmm.  Interesting.  What does that do exactly.  Does it prevent the filament from going through smoothly?  Is it just the heatbreak or the nozzle too?

Anyway, one of the things I did last night was to try different speeds, so I started the same print, but I sliced the model with the slider to maximum speed (60mm/sec).  During the print I noticed the quality of the surface got worse, so while it was printing I reduced the speed with the manual feedrate slider to 64 (percent I presume, so about 40mm/sec), and let it print.  The surface quality improved dramatically.

So this morning, I PID'd the extruder to 230°C, set the speed slider to minimum (40mm/sec), and sliced a different model, that is lot more complicated that the one above, and requires support as well.  It's printing right now, and we'll see what it looks like about 12 hours from now.

To print or, 3D print, that is the question...
SD3 printer w/too many mods,  Printrbot Simple Maker Ed.,  FormLabs Form 1+
AnyCubic Photon, Shining 3D EinScan-S & Atlas 3D scanners...
...and too much time on my hands.

15 Reply by wardjr

  • wardjr
  • wardjr
  • Moderator
  • Offline
  • From: Minnesota
  • Registered: 2013-06-10
  • Posts: 5,624

Re: Surface quality & extrusion issues

The only thing I can figure is that without the precise polishing the filament catches slightly and creates erratic movement of the filament as it tries to flow.

Printit Industries Model 8.10 fully enclosed CoreXY, Chamber heat
3-SD3's & a Workbench all fully enclosed, RH-Slic3r Win7pro, E3D V6, Volcano & Cyclops Hot End
SSR/500W AC Heated Glass Bed, Linear bearings on SS rods. Direct Drive Y-axis, BulldogXL
Thanks to all for your contributions

wardjr's Website