1 Topic by adrian (edited by adrian 2014-03-18 04:20:13)

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Topic: Solidoodle again appears to violate GPL V3 licence

It would outwardly seem something/someone changed the firmware you are shipping on the Printrboard going back to at least August 2013... 

Separately, but still related to your GPL issues - Have you also started including the required GPL licences *with the printers* in a physical form - as required under the 'making endusers aware of the terms of the GPL software they are using' clauses ?

It is hard to see these continued violations as accidental ... from the non inclusion of the licence with the printers through to the months late posting of the printrboard schematics (which you never publicly attribute as a Printrboard instead preferring to call it the 'new' Solidoodle motherboard) and the huge delays in posting the original printrboard firmware..

To avoid any confusion - here is the licence:

https://github.com/ErikZalm/Marlin/blob … in/COPYING

And the relevant prologue - noting the requirement to include the GPL notice *with* the printer

GPL_v3 wrote:

To protect your rights, we need to prevent others from denying you these rights or asking you to surrender the rights. Therefore, you have certain responsibilities if you distribute copies of the software, or if you modify it: responsibilities to respect the freedom of others.

For example, if you distribute copies of such a program, whether gratis or for a fee, you must pass on to the recipients the same freedoms that you received. You must make sure that they, too, receive or can get the source code. And you must show them these terms so they know their rights.

Developers that use the GNU GPL protect your rights with two steps: (1) assert copyright on the software, and (2) offer you this License giving you legal permission to copy, distribute and/or modify it.

I would like a full response to the specific points I've raised for the public record.

2 Reply by DePartedPrinter

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Re: Solidoodle again appears to violate GPL V3 licence

adrian wrote:

I would like a full response to all the specific points I've raised for the public record.


+1

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3 Reply by elmoret (edited by elmoret 2014-03-17 18:06:15)

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Re: Solidoodle again appears to violate GPL V3 licence

DePartedPrinter wrote:
adrian wrote:

I would like a full response to all the specific points I've raised for the public record.


+1

Preferably from Sam himself. I've emailed him a link to this thread.

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4 Reply by adrian (edited by adrian 2014-03-18 00:39:40)

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Re: Solidoodle again appears to violate GPL V3 licence

Its been asked how I 'know' they've changed the firmware or what makes me 'think they've changed it'.. Obviously I can't tell for certain and am just working on what is publicly available information -

The linked firmware on the Solidoodle website is configured to state in its Banner:
FIRMWARE_URL "http://www.solidoodle.com/how-to-2/how- … -firmware/"

This for both the SD2 and SD3 versions.

Yet a few people have now advised that their printers, going back as far as August 2013, actually state in the banner:
FIRMWARE_URL:http://www.mendel-parts.com  . These customers advise they haven't altered their firmware and thats as it shipped from SD. 

So I could be completely off base and wrong and getting a bum steer on all this - at which point  I will happily acknowledge that - or there is clearly a difference between what is linked on the website and what is shipping on some or all the printers... Appreciate the difficulties here given the relative vacuum we get to work in regarding information from Solidoodle.

If it eventuates that the users who have seen this have actually indeed upgraded the firmware elsewhere but denied that - then I'll be right back here to supply my sincerest apologies.. My strong wording on the first post is born from the fact that this is very frustrating, and historically, dealing with this has also been very frustrating - so I apologize if I've come into this as.. well.. frustrated smile

5 Reply by Antron007

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Re: Solidoodle again appears to violate GPL V3 licence

I just got my SD2 2 weeks ago and it has the solidoodle.com/howto link in the banner when I connect to it. If that is the banner you're talking about. FIRMWARE_NAME: Marlin smashup for printrboard (or something like that) and FIRMWARE_URL: solidoodle.com ...

I'm not saying nobody isn't getting different. I can just tell you what I got. Hope it helps some.

6 Reply by adrian (edited by adrian 2014-03-18 03:56:09)

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Re: Solidoodle again appears to violate GPL V3 licence

Antron007 wrote:

I'm not saying nobody isn't getting different. I can just tell you what I got. Hope it helps some.

Great stuff - thanks. Other users in your same boat have had different based on their statements. I'm trying to ascertain if they perhaps have not been entirely open about the 'history' of their boards, or if there are examples that are shipping with different firmware from that which is provided by solidoodle as the 'as built' firmware.

My questions and inquiries also don't stem purely from the firmware itself - Its about them informing customers of the GPL software they are providing to them and the licence that is therefore granted to the end-user - a requirement of the licence as well.  Did you get a piece of paper with your printer informing you that it contains GPL software, the terms of that licence, and where you can formally request/obtain the GPL-bound software ?

Anyway - like I've stated.. I'll happily offer any and all clarification to my earlier statements once there is any further information that comes to hand. And not just the firmware sourcecode.... Like I said - I'm very frustrated by the whole situation these days so openly made that statement as well and will happily call myself out if I'm in anyway misleading or misrepresenting something here...

7 Reply by Tomek

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Re: Solidoodle again appears to violate GPL V3 licence

This kind of shadiness is something I really dislike about Solidoodle. It's negligent at this point, they're trying to be a big-game player, and they are bigger then they used to be, so they really have no excuse.

One of the reasons I only sometimes recommend Solidoodle to people [because even still it is one of the best options for a certain category of budget-tight experience-limited people.] I much prefer a number of different companies more embracing of the foundation of open source contributions that they ultimately live on.

8 Reply by adrian

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Re: Solidoodle again appears to violate GPL V3 licence

Ok - Over the course of today - I've had two of the users who previously advised they hadn't attempted to 'do anything' to their printrboards  actually now suggest that maybe they had 'done something' neutral neutral ..

So I will eat my humble pie on the firmware being switched on the basis that I was not provided accurate or complete information from the users and offer my full apologies for any misunderstandings I have caused with regard to the firmware being switched. I would still like a public confirmation from Solidoodle that the listed firmware is precisely what is still being built and shipped today.

However,  As stated, thats only part of it. Solidoodle does not - again according to users and I've already apparently burnt my fingers there today - ship any form of notification in a physical form that accompanies the printer advising users of the GPL licence under which it is granted, and where/how to obtain that GPL software.

I appreciate you don't ship any documentation - which is your choice - but not shipping the GPL licence and informing the customer they are inherently granted that licence - is not your choice.

So to be clear - I still seek confirmation regarding the veracity of the firmware source-code that is posted AND regarding if you are adhering to the requirements of GPL by notifying customers within the packaging of the product as it is shipped and received by them.

And I reiterate my apologies regarding any statements with regard to the firmware source-code itself - assuming that its confirmed it is the 'as-built' source code.

9 Reply by elmoret (edited by elmoret 2014-03-19 16:35:31)

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Re: Solidoodle again appears to violate GPL V3 licence

To summarize: there are two issues at hand here:

1.) Has the code on Solidoodles always matched the code available from their website? (I don't see how, since the download link from their site gives only printrboard firmware and printrboard schematics)
2.) Does Solidoodle provide the end user with a copy of the GPL license? This: http://www.solidoodle.com/licenses/ doesn't count unless provided to each customer, either physically or electronically.

Unless I'm missing something, they've been in violation for years now. Questions for Sam:

1.) When did you first read/become aware of the GPL license?
2.) When did the licenses page go live?
3.) When did Solidoodle start including the license in paperwork with the products?
4.) Which products is the license included with?

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10 Reply by Antron007

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Re: Solidoodle again appears to violate GPL V3 licence

@adrian. Nothing mentioned about any licenses on the little paper I got. Just links to customer support, calibration and start here.

While I got your attention, a few questions if you don't mind? More like confirmations, if you will?

I get the impression that you are the creator/author/original coder of the Marlin firmware. Am I under the correct impression?

I noticed the last Marlin update appears to be around August 2013. Is that also correct? It also seems that the firmware has been developed on or for the Sang boards. Is this correct? It seemed all of the documentation and info was geared towards the Sangs but I have a Prntrboard and am not sure how they differ. Being new to 3d printing I don't want to mess anything up.

Marlin also seems to have a lot of support for features beyond stock like, the different hot ends and extruders, lcd panels, ect.. Will things like the higher max temps apply to the stock bed and extruder. It seems with the filament I have I need to be running close to max temp to get usable prints. It would be real nice to get a few more degrees on my bed.

I'm pretty sure you've recently mentioned a new update coming soon. Will there be more docs for the Printrboard for that update? Have you managed to get your hands on one yet? I know in some of your older threads you've mentioned not having one yet.

Thanks for everything.

11 Reply by solijohn

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Re: Solidoodle again appears to violate GPL V3 licence

Antron007 wrote:

@adrian. Nothing mentioned about any licenses on the little paper I got. Just links to customer support, calibration and start here.

While I got your attention, a few questions if you don't mind? More like confirmations, if you will?

I get the impression that you are the creator/author/original coder of the Marlin firmware. Am I under the correct impression?

The Marlin Firmware was always a mashup of other firmware. The author is "considered" to be Eric Zalm, but it has been contributed to by many folks. Lawsy and Adrian modify the current firmware, and there are many versions of it with their code in it.

Antron007 wrote:

I noticed the last Marlin update appears to be around August 2013. Is that also correct? It also seems that the firmware has been developed on or for the Sang boards. Is this correct? It seemed all of the documentation and info was geared towards the Sangs but I have a Prntrboard and am not sure how they differ. Being new to 3d printing I don't want to mess anything up.

The firmware was always geared to multiple boards. If you look, there is a configuration file where you select the board. I'm not sure which documentation you are referring to. If you point towards any non-updated docs I'll delete them if they are solidoodles.

Generally speaking we (solidoodle) haven't done much in the way of firmware development. That's why you don't see more recent updates. The current firmware does everything we need it to do, and haven't seen a problem that needs to be corrected by firmware  updates.



Antron007 wrote:

Marlin also seems to have a lot of support for features beyond stock like, the different hot ends and extruders, lcd panels, ect.. Will things like the higher max temps apply to the stock bed and extruder. It seems with the filament I have I need to be running close to max temp to get usable prints. It would be real nice to get a few more degrees on my bed.


That's a limitation of the hot-ends more than the firmware. We do set a firmware limit for temperature on the stock hot-ends, so that you do not inadvertently melt them. You shouldn't need the extra high temperatures.

Antron007 wrote:


I'm pretty sure you've recently mentioned a new update coming soon. Will there be more docs for the Printrboard for that update? Have you managed to get your hands on one yet? I know in some of your older threads you've mentioned not having one yet.

Thanks for everything.

I can't speculate as to whether or not Lawsy or Adrian plan to update the firmware they have created. His version, and the current version Solidoodle flashes are both perfectly acceptable for the printrboard.

What sort of docs were you looking for?

The firmware is fairly easy to read. I'd imagine that most of your questions could be answered in the source. Beyond that, the source for our version of the printrboard is also available.

Some people have trouble flashing the firmware. You can find details on that at

http://wiki.solidoodle.com/update-firmware

Former Solidoodle employee, no longer associated with the company.

12 Reply by elmoret (edited by elmoret 2014-03-20 20:29:43)

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Re: Solidoodle again appears to violate GPL V3 licence

New problem to add to the list: GPL license page links to schematic files that say Rev D, but the board clearly states Rev E.

Complete negligence with regard to the license, in my opinion.

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13 Reply by solijohn

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Re: Solidoodle again appears to violate GPL V3 licence

elmoret wrote:

New problem to add to the list: GPL license page links to schematic files that say Rev D, but the board clearly states Rev E.

Complete negligence with regard to the license, in my opinion.


Link?

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14 Reply by elmoret (edited by elmoret 2014-03-20 20:43:22)

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Re: Solidoodle again appears to violate GPL V3 licence

solijohn wrote:
elmoret wrote:

New problem to add to the list: GPL license page links to schematic files that say Rev D, but the board clearly states Rev E.

Complete negligence with regard to the license, in my opinion.


Link?

Really? You guys don't know where your own resources are?

http://www.solidoodle.com/wp-content/up … rboard.zip

Which yields:

http://i.imgur.com/sUb9Qpw.png

Let me say it again, in case this isn't clear. License compliance is not the job of the end user! You guys NEED to, not should, be on top of this.

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15 Reply by solijohn

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Re: Solidoodle again appears to violate GPL V3 licence

elmoret wrote:
solijohn wrote:
elmoret wrote:

New problem to add to the list: GPL license page links to schematic files that say Rev D, but the board clearly states Rev E.

Complete negligence with regard to the license, in my opinion.


Link?

Really? You guys don't know where your own resources are?

http://www.solidoodle.com/wp-content/up … rboard.zip

Which yields:

http://i.imgur.com/sUb9Qpw.png

Let me say it again, in case this isn't clear. License compliance is not the job of the end user! You guys NEED to, not should, be on top of this.

I don't design the boards. We'll get that changed too.

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16 Reply by Antron007

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Re: Solidoodle again appears to violate GPL V3 licence

Thanks for the info john. So with my printer only being a few weeks old it's safe to assume that the firmware on the board is the same that is available from the solidoodle site?

I really don't have any issues with my hot end but I'd like to get about 3-5 more degrees for my bed. I'm guessing that's in the firmware somewhere then?

I have a couple arduinos and an ezb microcontroller so the actual flashing part I'm not too worried about.

I guess information would be a better word than documentation. My bad. But in general I refer to the wiki's and forum info across the internet. I know a lot of it is older and probably because not much has changed but since the SDs are using the printrboards now it would would be nice to have some fresher Vids and info using the more current hardware. Some actual well organized documentation wouldn't hurt either.

Overall my SD2 has run pretty good almost right out of the box. The bed looks just slightly warped up in the the back left corner so I got some glass and painters tape, adjusted the z and leveled the bed and I'm getting useable parts. I still got some learning to do to improve the appearance. I think a lot of that is software settings anyway. As far as hardware goes I'm pretty happy.

I'm sorry I kinda jacked the thread a little I won't ask anymore of these questions here. BTW I still wouldn't mind Adrian weighing in as well. Thanks again for your time.

17 Reply by solisam

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Re: Solidoodle again appears to violate GPL V3 licence

Adrian, et. al.,

Thanks for raising your concerns. I'm happy to clear up misunderstandings regarding our open source license info & disclosures. First of all, I'd like to say that we love and support the open-source community, without which we wouldn't be in business today.

Here is what we are doing to comply with open-source licensing as it pertains to the firmware and PCB:

1. The latest firmware source code and PCB gerber files are downloadable at solidoodle.com/solidoodle-motherboard-source-files-and-firmware. I can confirm that these are the latest designs that we actually ship with the printer.

2. The open source licences are displayed in the firmware source code, on the PCB silkscreen, at solidoodle.com/licenses (link available on the landing page of solidoodle.com), and in the printed documentation now being shipped with each product.

3. In addition to making the firmware easily downloadable on our website, we participate in the continued development of source code on github. For example: github.com/solidoodle/Marlin/tree/master.

We've always distributed the firmware source that we've shipped with the printer. John ran a comparison of the binaries for the source that we share on our site and the compiled version that we ship with our printers to confirm that they are the same. The reason the firmware appears to be an older version is because we are indeed actually shipping an older version of the Marlin firmware. With regards to the printed documentation, I checked inside a few shipping cartons today myself to confirm that information on the GPL and Creative Commons Licenses are actually included.

I feel that we are in compliance with both the spirit and the letter of the applicable open source licenses. Our goal is to be as transparent and open as possible. I'm sorry if you've felt things have been unclear in the past. If you still feel that things are unclear on our website or documentation then I'd appreciate your continued feedback on how we can improve.

Sam
CEO, Solidoodle

solisam's Website

18 Reply by solijohn

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Re: Solidoodle again appears to violate GPL V3 licence

elmoret wrote:
solijohn wrote:
elmoret wrote:

New problem to add to the list: GPL license page links to schematic files that say Rev D, but the board clearly states Rev E.

Complete negligence with regard to the license, in my opinion.


Link?

Really? You guys don't know where your own resources are?

http://www.solidoodle.com/wp-content/up … rboard.zip

Which yields:

http://i.imgur.com/sUb9Qpw.png

Let me say it again, in case this isn't clear. License compliance is not the job of the end user! You guys NEED to, not should, be on top of this.

I changed the Revision letter to E.

Would you like me to change the Printrboard Electronics part to Solidoodle as well? I was hesitant to change it since our changes to the board have been so minimal.

Former Solidoodle employee, no longer associated with the company.

19 Reply by AZERATE

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Re: Solidoodle again appears to violate GPL V3 licence

solisam wrote:

With regards to the printed documentation, I checked inside a few shipping cartons today myself to confirm that information on the GPL and Creative Commons Licenses are actually included.

I received my SD2 in November. I got absolutely ZERO paperwork of any kind other than the billing and shipping info. Didn't even receive the "Welcome to the Solidoodle family" note. (insert teardrop here)

So one of five things are going on with this statement:
1) I was an unlucky soul who had a printer packaged when SD was out of printing paper. hmm
2) Word spread in the shop that you were going to personally check a few boxes to confirm their contents. Thus, making your employees actually care about their work. hmm
3) You sent out a memo to start including documentation with every printer. Thus, warning your employees of the possibilities of inspection. (see line 2)
4) You took a few days to draw something up and then respond on a website primarily dedicated to YOUR PRODUCT; In an attempt to diffuse an issue.
5) You never sent anything stating such information with printers until now.

One point I would like to bring up, before I get a response (if ever) is another user received his SD4 3-17-14. I spoke with the individual, and he said he received the same info as I have. And this was a BRAND NEW PRINTER.

Care to explain?

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20 Reply by jstarne1

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Re: Solidoodle again appears to violate GPL V3 licence

@Antron , i checked my box , nope nothing about licenses and stuff in my box either , i got a invoice / packing slip that showed what was in the box. Hmm sounds like a trend here.  I also from the manufacturer have a warped print bed , took pics to prove and sent to solidoodle , didn't get a new one.

21 Reply by solijohn

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Re: Solidoodle again appears to violate GPL V3 licence

jstarne1 wrote:

@Antron , i checked my box , nope nothing about licenses and stuff in my box either , i got a invoice / packing slip that showed what was in the box. Hmm sounds like a trend here.  I also from the manufacturer have a warped print bed , took pics to prove and sent to solidoodle , didn't get a new one.


We only just now started shipping the license information. That means, you wont see Solidoodles with the docs for a week.

I believe it is taped to the extruder.

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22 Reply by elmoret (edited by elmoret 2014-03-21 14:10:18)

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Re: Solidoodle again appears to violate GPL V3 licence

solijohn wrote:
jstarne1 wrote:

@Antron , i checked my box , nope nothing about licenses and stuff in my box either , i got a invoice / packing slip that showed what was in the box. Hmm sounds like a trend here.  I also from the manufacturer have a warped print bed , took pics to prove and sent to solidoodle , didn't get a new one.


We only just now started shipping the license information. That means, you wont see Solidoodles with the docs for a week.

I believe it is taped to the extruder.

So if I am reading this correctly, Solidoodle was out of compliance with the GPL license for roughly 30 months? Does anyone know the penalty for violation of the GPL license? Can the right to use the software in question be revoked?

The "Firmware URL" (http://www.solidoodle.com/how-to-2/how- … e-firmware) section of the firmware 6142013 which is what is posted on Solidoodle's site as of yesterday links to a depreciated page, not the license info itself - so that doesn't count either.

elmoret wrote:

Questions for Sam:

1.) When did you first read/become aware of the GPL license?
2.) When did the licenses page go live?
3.) When did Solidoodle start including the license in paperwork with the products?
4.) Which products is the license included with?

Why were these questions avoided?

Does it bother anyone else how Solidoodle and its employees are so unapologetic and unwilling to take responsibility for this? Of course, they do "love and support the open source community"... roll ...Solidoodle won't even tell people what size the machine screws on the extruder are. Hardly a trade secret.

New question for Sam - add it to the list above.

What exactly has your company done to "love and support" the open source community?

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23 Reply by adrian (edited by adrian 2014-03-24 21:21:00)

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Re: Solidoodle again appears to violate GPL V3 licence

Sam/Solijohn,

I thank you for addressing at least some of these concerns from the community. I've personally been otherwise disposed the previous few days so hence have not replied earlier nor do I have the oppurtunity to respond in full right now.

I am pleased to hear though that you are now shipping documentation that outlines the GPL license - keen to hear from the first handful of users what exactly this says etc.

Its disappointing and speaks lots that again it took prompting from the community to get some action on this - just like your Printrboard change over, but compliance is about moving forward not history I guess. But it would be good to hear the other concerns raised in this thread addressed, particularly the areas around how exactly Solidoodle is actively embracing open source etc.

Keenly await further details from you...

24 Reply by elmoret

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Re: Solidoodle again appears to violate GPL V3 licence

Bump.

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25 Reply by elmoret

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Re: Solidoodle again appears to violate GPL V3 licence

Bump.

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