1,176 (edited by DePartedPrinter 2013-04-01 21:35:04)

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

elmoret wrote:
CraigRK wrote:

Tim,

This comment might be more relevant on the KS page, but I thought I would ask here first.

When will you be providing the STL's for the following:
• Hopper    (STL    provided    by    us)
• Hopper    extender    (optional,    STL/CAD provided    by    us)
• Electronics    enclosure    (optional,    STL/CAD provided    by    us)

Or might they also change, like the enclosure?

Craig

Plan to provide at end of campaign. It's possible they might change, there's no point in someone printing them 2 months before they could possibly have a kit in their hands.


if your taking suggestions...I'm going to recommend something similar to this:

http://www.soliforum.com/misc.php?action=pun_attachment&item=900&download=0

http://www.soliforum.com/misc.php?action=pun_attachment&item=901&download=0

SD2 with E3D, SD Press, Form 1+
Filastruder
NYLON (taulman): http://www.soliforum.com/topic/466/nylon/

1,177

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

Looks like the hopper is the same, the funnel is different. Do you mind posting a STL/CAD file?

1,178

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

Tim is correct about the issue of using a printed part in the extrusion train.  On testing using a tee in the chain I found that the bottle feed works just fine.  The problem is that there is too much room around the auger and the pellets would jam and twist the pipe over 120 degrees more from vertical.  I had to use a pipe wrench and a 3 foot extender to release the jam.  You would not believe the torque that these motors can deliver.  So what is needed is what Tim has designed.  You need to limit the pellets entry into the auger from on top and not allow them to slip outside the auger diameter or the auger will have to sheer the pellets to move them.  The complete path for the pellets need to stay inside the diameter of the auger.  So in answer the bottle work fine for a feed the hole allows plenty of room for the pellets but the pellets need to be limited to the area of the auger and not any more.

Bob Teeter

1,179 (edited by elmoret 2013-04-02 01:32:46)

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

About masterbatch: It's pretty easy. If the instructions call for say, 50:1 ratio, then take 1tsp of masterbatch, mix with 1 cup pellets:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1786359/Photo%20Mar%2030%2C%204%2002%2059%20PM.jpg
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1786359/Photo%20Mar%2030%2C%204%2003%2009%20PM.jpg

then stir:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1786359/Photo%20Mar%2030%2C%204%2003%2032%20PM.jpg

Then, spool it up:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1786359/Photo%20Apr%2001%2C%208%2033%2004%20PM.jpg

and print:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1786359/Photo%20Apr%2001%2C%208%2056%2047%20PM.jpg

Here's a finished hopper, Filastruder filament.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1786359/Photo%20Apr%2001%2C%208%2017%2053%20PM%20copy.jpg



Printed at 90mm/sec perimeters, 113mm/sec infill. Pretty fast for a Solidoodle.

Hard to really capture in photos, but the coloring is definitely consistent. Just like the OEM black parts on the Solidoodle.

1,180

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

It sure did fade in that last pic.... wink just kidding

1,181

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

This is how we bag plastic BTW

Post's attachments

Packaging plastic.JPG 2.63 mb, file has never been downloaded. 

You don't have the permssions to download the attachments of this post.

1,182

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

Congrats on going 2 days without losing a limb or anything.  That's 200% (or is it infinity) better than your previous record.

1,183

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

IanJohnson wrote:

Congrats on going 2 days without losing a limb or anything.  That's 200% (or is it infinity) better than your previous record.

Ha, I was confused until I looked at the image again. My dad found that in a house he bought. I do plan on using it eventually. I feel it is important to let your employees know they are safe. They also don't want to be the one to reset the date.

1,184

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

Just don't include third degree burns and you'll be fine.  When changing nozzles, the brass of the new nozzle heats up really fast.  It's quicker to get it finger tight before using the wrench, so I'm always racing to screw it in to that point before it gets hot enough to burn my fingers.

1,185

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

elmoret wrote:

About masterbatch: It's pretty easy. If the instructions call for say, 50:1 ratio, then take 1tsp of masterbatch, mix with 1 cup pellets:

Thanks for the demo Tim.

This question/suggestion is probably more for OSP.  I know you guys are looking into getting various colours of ABS masterbatch.  The link Tim posted a while back called for a ratio of 1%.  The suggestion above is 2%, so presuming these numbers are consistent in general for masterbatch, then the 2oz bags you sell in your store will do about 2.5kg of filament.

How about offering a rainbow selection of masterbatch (either in store, or on KS)?

Masterbatch, ABS and PLA Pellets available for UK and Europe.
http://www.emakershop.com/Seller=1324

1,186

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

have you tried mixing colors?

1,187 (edited by OSPrinting 2013-04-02 12:49:08)

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

CraigRK wrote:
elmoret wrote:

About masterbatch: It's pretty easy. If the instructions call for say, 50:1 ratio, then take 1tsp of masterbatch, mix with 1 cup pellets:

Thanks for the demo Tim.

This question/suggestion is probably more for OSP.  I know you guys are looking into getting various colours of ABS masterbatch.  The link Tim posted a while back called for a ratio of 1%.  The suggestion above is 2%, so presuming these numbers are consistent in general for masterbatch, then the 2oz bags you sell in your store will do about 2.5kg of filament.

How about offering a rainbow selection of masterbatch (either in store, or on KS)?

Thank you for the suggestion. Once the KS end, we will be doing an overhaul of our inventory and will be adding much more. So you can expect to see color packs and other arrangements.

1,188

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

IanJohnson wrote:

Just don't include third degree burns and you'll be fine.  When changing nozzles, the brass of the new nozzle heats up really fast.  It's quicker to get it finger tight before using the wrench, so I'm always racing to screw it in to that point before it gets hot enough to burn my fingers.

You don't need to screw it in while hot!

Heat to 150C, unplug it, back it off 1 turn. Wait 1-2 minutes. Back it off another turn. Repeat until nozzle is free, and assembly is cold. Thread in new nozzle. Heat to 150C. Tighten nozzle.

Oh course, wear gloves and eye protection.

1,189

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

CraigRK wrote:

This question/suggestion is probably more for OSP.  I know you guys are looking into getting various colours of ABS masterbatch.  The link Tim posted a while back called for a ratio of 1%.  The suggestion above is 2%, so presuming these numbers are consistent in general for masterbatch, then the 2oz bags you sell in your store will do about 2.5kg of filament.

How about offering a rainbow selection of masterbatch (either in store, or on KS)?

Typical masterbatch ratios are between 25:1 and 100:1.

Rob (OSPrinting) is meeting with a masterbatch sales guy late this week. I'm sure they'll offer colors if they can!

1,190

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

Manx wrote:

have you tried mixing colors?

Haven't. Not many options yet - just gray, black, and green.

1,191

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

elmoret wrote:
IanJohnson wrote:

Just don't include third degree burns and you'll be fine.  When changing nozzles, the brass of the new nozzle heats up really fast.  It's quicker to get it finger tight before using the wrench, so I'm always racing to screw it in to that point before it gets hot enough to burn my fingers.

You don't need to screw it in while hot!

Heat to 150C, unplug it, back it off 1 turn. Wait 1-2 minutes. Back it off another turn. Repeat until nozzle is free, and assembly is cold. Thread in new nozzle. Heat to 150C. Tighten nozzle.

Oh course, wear gloves and eye protection.

Sure, but that takes, like, 5 minutes!  When I do this I usually pull some plastic out of the barrel with tweezers.  As it cools it becomes like taffy and snaps back behind where the threads are so I don't need to worry about it interfering with screwing on the nozzle.  I especially do this when changing bolts in the plug that I tapped.

1,192

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

bteeter wrote:

Tim is correct about the issue of using a printed part in the extrusion train.  On testing using a tee in the chain I found that the bottle feed works just fine.  The problem is that there is too much room around the auger and the pellets would jam and twist the pipe over 120 degrees more from vertical.  I had to use a pipe wrench and a 3 foot extender to release the jam.  You would not believe the torque that these motors can deliver.  So what is needed is what Tim has designed.  You need to limit the pellets entry into the auger from on top and not allow them to slip outside the auger diameter or the auger will have to sheer the pellets to move them.  The complete path for the pellets need to stay inside the diameter of the auger.  So in answer the bottle work fine for a feed the hole allows plenty of room for the pellets but the pellets need to be limited to the area of the auger and not any more.

Bob Teeter

Bob - do you have a feel for where the pellets were jamming?  was it only at the point where the auger enters the pipe or were the pellets jamming all around the auger between the auger and the tee?

1,193

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

Here's some pics of my beta.  What kind of variation are folks seeing in filament diameter?  This table top was only about 30" off of the ground. I think there was a lot of interaction with the pile of filament on the floor, preventing uniform pull at the extruder tip.  Here's some quick data I took at 200C marking off 1 minute of filament.  Suprisingly, motor current did not seem to increase with motor voltage and ranged between 260mA and 300mA.  No real correlation between Motor Voltage and filament thickness.

Motor        Filament               Thickness  (mm)
Voltage     Length (Inch)         Min         Max
12            11.9                     1.67       1.73
13            12.5                     1.70       1.75
14            13.8                     1.60       1.75
15            14.4                     1.63       1.77



Pics below shows the funnel Tim printed up for me with filastruded filament.  Not too shabby.  Pipe slot was cut exactly to spec, but ended up a little too close to the flange when the hopper was added.    Using T nuts and washers allowed the hopper to be placed closer to the flange.  Next time I would preinstall the pipe in the flange and measure out where to place the slot.

Used an 11/32" x 3/8 drive socket with a 3/8" brass strip to engage the D shaft section of the gearbox.

Had 0.030" of run out on my pipe flanges.  Didn't want to dink around with shims or offseting the wood supports so I cheated and trued the surfaces on the lathe.  Screwed the flanges onto the pipe and chucked the pipe.  Worked great.

Another way that would have worked would have been to drill oversize holes for the motor mount and attach with fender washers so it can be moved around.  Center the gearbox shaft by sighting down the inside of the pipe.


https://dl.dropbox.com/u/51501423/Beta1.jpg
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/51501423/Beta2.jpg
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/51501423/Beta3.jpg
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/51501423/Beta4.jpg

1,194

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

justnick wrote:

Here's some quick data I took at 200C marking off 1 minute of filament.  Suprisingly, motor current did not seem to increase with motor voltage and ranged between 260mA and 300mA.  No real correlation between Motor Voltage and filament thickness.

Motor        Filament               Thickness  (mm)
Voltage     Length (Inch)         Min         Max
12            11.9                     1.67       1.73
13            12.5                     1.70       1.75
14            13.8                     1.60       1.75
15            14.4                     1.63       1.77

Nick, The motor current did not go up, but the voltage did.  That means that the motor was using more power.  What happens is that the back EMF increases as the speed of the motor increases.  When the BEMF gets to the same voltage as the supply, the motor can not take any more current or go any faster.  If the load increased, the motor would slow down and the BEMF would be lower, so the current would go up to increase the torque.  It is all a balancing act.

1,195

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

Bob - do you have a feel for where the pellets were jamming?  was it only at the point where the auger enters the pipe or were the pellets jamming all around the auger between the auger and the tee?

The pellets appeared to jam where the auger entered the pipe going to the heater assembly inside the tee.  I had a discussion with a friend about the problem and he suggested a solution so I am going try it out tonight.  I will let you know if if it works or not.

Bob Teeter

1,196

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

elmoret wrote:

Looks like the hopper is the same, the funnel is different. Do you mind posting a STL/CAD file?

I've been looking for an STL of that funnel, would love a copy.

1,197

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

justnick wrote:

Here's some pics of my beta.  What kind of variation are folks seeing in filament diameter? 

Pipe slot was cut exactly to spec, but ended up a little too close to the flange when the hopper was added.    Using T nuts and washers allowed the hopper to be placed closer to the flange.  Next time I would preinstall the pipe in the flange and measure out where to place the slot.

Used an 11/32" x 3/8 drive socket with a 3/8" brass strip to engage the D shaft section of the gearbox.

Had 0.030" of run out on my pipe flanges.  Didn't want to dink around with shims or offseting the wood supports so I cheated and trued the surfaces on the lathe.  Screwed the flanges onto the pipe and chucked the pipe.  Worked great.

Every report I've seen has been just about +/-0.03mm @ tav.
The slot is a bit close to the flange, depending on how tight you get the pipe, and whether you notch the hopper for the nuts. The t-nuts are a great idea!

Did you not have a 9mm socket and washer (key) in your kit? I might have run out when shipping yours, it was one of the last ones.

I think you're the first to lathe the flanges! I intentionally left the design unconstrained, so perfectly flat flanges aren't a requirement. Cool that you have the materials to do it, though!

1,198

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

blixem wrote:
elmoret wrote:

Looks like the hopper is the same, the funnel is different. Do you mind posting a STL/CAD file?

I've been looking for an STL of that funnel, would love a copy.

blixem,

Are you one of the beta testers?

PM me.

SD2 with E3D, SD Press, Form 1+
Filastruder
NYLON (taulman): http://www.soliforum.com/topic/466/nylon/

1,199

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

Hey Dennis - Agreed.  My bad.  I was thinking propeller torque in air proportional to RPM^2.  This ain't air.  This is ultimate goo.  Reynolds Number <<1.  Torque is proportional to RPM.  Motor Rs=13 Ohms (=> stall current @12v ~900mA).  Io~90mA.   Nominal observed operating current ~260mA @12V.  Ideal motor voltage 12-0.260*13= 8.62V.   Motor output efficiency is only Pout/Pin = (8.62*0.17)/(12*0.26) =46%. hmm  Set up and solved the first order motor equations.  Based on the 12V data, assuming internal pressure is proportinal to RPM and extrusion rate is proportional to internal pressure, the predicted filament rate at 15V was 14.7 in/min vs 14.4; predicted motor current 307mA.  Will re-measure.  I was just eyeballing current expecting an RPM^2 effect with good motor efficiency.  Didn't want this to get off topic and turn into a math-fest, but not bad for a kitchen timer and some sharpies. wink

1,200

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

justnick wrote:

Hey Dennis - Agreed.  My bad.  I was thinking propeller torque in air proportional to RPM^2.  This ain't air.  This is ultimate goo.  Reynolds Number <<1.  Torque is proportional to RPM.  Motor Rs=13 Ohms (=> stall current @12v ~900mA).  Io~90mA.   Nominal observed operating current ~260mA @12V.  Ideal motor voltage 12-0.260*13= 8.62V.   Motor output efficiency is only Pout/Pin = (8.62*0.17)/(12*0.26) =46%. hmm  Set up and solved the first order motor equations.  Based on the 12V data, assuming internal pressure is proportinal to RPM and extrusion rate is proportional to internal pressure, the predicted filament rate at 15V was 14.7 in/min vs 14.4; predicted motor current 307mA.  Will re-measure.  I was just eyeballing current expecting an RPM^2 effect with good motor efficiency.  Didn't want this to get off topic and turn into a math-fest, but not bad for a kitchen timer and some sharpies. wink

Wow!  You are a better geek than me if you can generate all those numbers that quick.  I could have used those numbers yesterday for a little side project.  I did not realize that that Rs was so high.  The stall current is quite reasonable for loading the power supply at startup.  One or two 5W Zener diodes and an 18V supply and you could fine tune the motor RPM and extrusion rate to what works best for a particular plastic and diameter.  Something I will have to keep in mind down the road.  I still don't have a 3D printer, so I am just in learn though osmosis mode until the Fall.