1 Topic by shan.destromp

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Topic: "Upgrade" the printrboard or get something else.

So I've got one of the newer SD3's with the printrboard and it seems quite serviceable so far; doing (most) everything I want it too.  That said I'm looking towards the (near) future; and two of the items at the top of my list are a panelolu-type LCD; and a gcode fan.  Unfortunately the board supplied by Solidoodle is missing all of the pins required to do this easily and while I'm serviceable with a soldering iron; I'm not comfortable working directly on a circuitboard so my question is thus:

Should I find a "generic" printrboard that's virtually drop in but has all the pins already supplied; or go with an "aftermarket" board like Azteeg or RAMPS?  Specifically I'm thinking about this since it seems to have just about everything I want (I think) provided I can get confirmation that it would work without too much beyond "plug and play."  I'm sure its probably a bit over priced vs sourcing the board, the lcd, and the cables separately but I'm picky about who I make online orders with.  Over 15 years of buying crap online and I've yet to get burned by fraud and I'd like to keep it that way by going through larger vendors (yes, I realize its a 3rd party actually providing it but payment is processed through Amazon and since I have Prime I don't even pay for 2 day shipping).

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2 Reply by Heartlander

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Re: "Upgrade" the printrboard or get something else.

I have no suggestions to your larger questions, of course but you mentioned soldering on the PC board. You do know that there is also wire-wrapping if you want to get a wire on a pin, right? It makes a very good, tight and permanent connection without solder. Google it. You can get 30-ga, wire wrapping wire and a wrap tool at Radio Shack. You Tubes tutorials show how to use it. If you screw something up, just unwrap it and do it over.

Forgive me if I'm talking down to you, I have no idea your level of experience except that you said your soldering is "serviceable". When I worked for the phone company installing EPABXs, almost all our work was wire wrapped. So was the stuff in the Apollo missions, BTW. So, it,s legit and professional but a lot of people are no longer aware of it since most stuff now is pin-and-socket or solder and a lot less point-to-point wiring, mostly printed circuits.

Robox printer, HICTOP (Prusa i3 variant) Model 3DP17 printer, ELEK 2.5W laser engraver, AutoDesk 123D Design, Windows 10

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3 Reply by 3d-oodler

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Re: "Upgrade" the printrboard or get something else.

That Amazon package looks good, but it's missing the Mega board for RAMPS to sit on top of.

This has the Mega board, but not the SD RAMPS:
http://www.amazon.com/SainSmart-Mega256 … m_sbs_pc_1

You could go up to a more inclusive SainSmart package, but the ones I'm seeing come with end stops, which you don't need, or you could buy a Mega or SD RAMPS separately.

As for what to get, I recently upgraded to RAMPS but the only expansion capacity I've taken advantage of at this point is to add a fan to the board itself.  Gcode fan is next on my list.  (upgrading wasn't my main motivation as my old board died, but I choose to move forward rather than spend the money on a mere replacement)

RAMPS is more popular, better documented (including on this forum), and more available.  All things which help me decide on, but those who have taken the leap to Azteeg X3 seem to like it.

I'm too much of a noob to venture out into the "exotics" at this point.

4 Reply by Hazer

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Re: "Upgrade" the printrboard or get something else.

Heartlander wrote:

I have no suggestions to your larger questions, of course but you mentioned soldering on the PC board. You do know that there is also wire-wrapping if you want to get a wire on a pin, right? It makes a very good, tight and permanent connection without solder. Google it. You can get 30-ga, wire wrapping wire and a wrap tool at Radio Shack. You Tubes tutorials show how to use it. If you screw something up, just unwrap it and do it over.

Forgive me if I'm talking down to you, I have no idea your level of experience except that you said your soldering is "serviceable". When I worked for the phone company installing EPABXs, almost all our work was wire wrapped. So was the stuff in the Apollo missions, BTW. So, it,s legit and professional but a lot of people are no longer aware of it since most stuff now is pin-and-socket or solder and a lot less point-to-point wiring, mostly printed circuits.

I believe the 'upgrade' he meant was having to solder the header pins onto the printrboard since Solidoodle left those off on the new motherboards. Its not easy. I regularly solder SMD by hand and have decent equipment, but getting the solder out of the first pin was a pain (needs more heat since it is attached to ground plane). I could easily see someone with a $10 Radioshack iron messing up their board.

My advice:

You can get the Arduino ($10), the RAMPS ($20), and DRV8825 boards ($6 each) from Geeetech when they go on sale during the weekends. Thats $54 for an entire replacement (Azteeg is $100+ and does not come with the drivers).

The reason why you should go the RAMPS route over the others is that (1)you can get pre-made LCD kits ($25 from Geeetech) that fits RAMPS directly, (2) there are much more easily reachable expansions for the RMAPS and much more documented firmware examples, (3) most people who do these upgrades eventually want to replace one or more of the driver boards which you cannot do with the printrboard, (4) much more cheaper than Azteeg X3 which is basically arduino Mega and RAMPS in a single package, and (5)  has a fifth stepper slot in case someone makes dual extrusion an easier upgrade in the future.

Chuck Bittner is a quadriplegic gamer who is petitioning the major console developers to include internal button remapping in all console games. You can help.
Sign Chuck Bittners petition

5 Reply by Gomisan

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Re: "Upgrade" the printrboard or get something else.

I dont suppose you care to post a shopping list of links.. I'm new enough to this that although I like the idea of doing the upgrade, I dont want to buy the wrong bits.

Gomisan's Website

6 Reply by Hazer

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Re: "Upgrade" the printrboard or get something else.

http://www.geeetech.com/

Look at the weekend specials on the front page. Every weekend a bunch of stuff goes on sale. If you register to the site, you can even put in a vote for what goes on sale the next weekend.

Chuck Bittner is a quadriplegic gamer who is petitioning the major console developers to include internal button remapping in all console games. You can help.
Sign Chuck Bittners petition

7 Reply by shan.destromp (edited by shan.destromp 2013-09-11 01:51:29)

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Re: "Upgrade" the printrboard or get something else.

Heartlander wrote:

Forgive me if I'm talking down to you, I have no idea your level of experience except that you said your soldering is "serviceable". When I worked for the phone company installing EPABXs, almost all our work was wire wrapped. So was the stuff in the Apollo missions, BTW. So, it,s legit and professional but a lot of people are no longer aware of it since most stuff now is pin-and-socket or solder and a lot less point-to-point wiring, mostly printed circuits.

No apology needed; I was admittedly unaware of (professional style) wire wrapping; however as Hazer pointed out I was meaning the soldering required to actually get the pins onto the printrboard.  If I'm not mistaken, you have a printrboard SD3 like me; compare the board on the back of your machine against these pictures and you'll see what I mean.  That said; wire-wrapping seems like one of those "old" techs that I'll likely invest some time into learning :-)

As to my soldering skills.  Like I said; serviceable.  I can do basic joins and splices; and I have done some (limited) pcb soldering but I absolutely hated it.  I don't have the muscle dexterity or control to do it without a lot of frustration.  Hands of a surgeon they are not.

3d-oodler wrote:

Stuff

Hmmm; I guess I need to do more research on what I actually need to buy and how to get everything working properly.  I was under the mistaken impression that RAMPS was fundimentally the same as a Sang or Printrboard in that it was an "all in one."  I guess the "M" in RAMPS lead me to believe that the "MEGA" portion was included, not that it was required but separate.  Just for clarification purposes; when you say MEGA, this is to what you are referencing correct?

3d-oodler wrote:

You could go up to a more inclusive SainSmart package, but the ones I'm seeing come with end stops, which you don't need, or you could buy a Mega or SD RAMPS separately.

At least with the Prime prices shown it's cheaper to buy the kit you linked + the SD board (141.99) vs the one I linked + MEGA 144.95

Hazer wrote:

Geeetech

Just for giggles I went and found as much as I could on GT that's "included" on my amazon links.

RAMPS 1.4 $40
Mega2560 $53
SD Ramps $13
LCD 2004 $23
A4988 ($10 x 5) $50
Total $179

Included with amazon but not priced was a RAMPS wiring cable as well as a USB cable; so figure another $5-10; shipping was either $8 for Hong Kong Post (not ever) or $30 for DHL (only trust them about 1% more than HKP).  I'll admit I'm unsure if the RAMPS I was looking at included the A4988's or not.  For the price I would think not, and they weren't mentioned in the description however the product name was specifically "RAMPS 1.4 RepRap Mega Pololu A4988 extend Shield."

As I mentioned, I have Prime so I get free 2-Day shipping so even if I ordered everything on GT 40% off; it would be ~137.4 after shipping; which all things considered is "close enough" to the price on Amazon, with the added perk of not having to wait for things to be delivered internationally.  FYI the products I linked are "Fulfilled by Amazon" so they (amazon) already have posession of the product in one of their warehouses.

In hindsight I can't recall if Prime actually gives me a discount on the product itself as well as shipping; or just the free shipping.  If it's the former I can see why someone would be more inclined to lean towards smaller specialized vendors.

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| Mk5 Jigsaw |:| Overkill Y-Axis Bracket |:| Lawsy's X/Y Carriage Replacement |
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8 Reply by Gomisan

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Re: "Upgrade" the printrboard or get something else.

Yes, but with Amazon you are talking ONLY to American participants of these forums. Many other vendors ship internationally, but Amazon don't for pretty much anything other than books.

So it gets REALLY annoying to see Amazon constantly quoted as a source, when for the majority of the world's population it is not an option.

end rant.

Gomisan's Website

9 Reply by spapadim (edited by spapadim 2013-09-13 15:28:11)

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Re: "Upgrade" the printrboard or get something else.

Hazer wrote:

I believe the 'upgrade' he meant was having to solder the header pins onto the printrboard since Solidoodle left those off on the new motherboards. Its not easy. I regularly solder SMD by hand and have decent equipment, but getting the solder out of the first pin was a pain (needs more heat since it is attached to ground plane). I could easily see someone with a $10 Radioshack iron messing up their board.

FWIW, one thing that makes it a bit easier: start by *adding* more solder, so you have a tiny mound. Getting the wick to start sucking is the hard part. After that, capillary action keeps you going, if you're reasonably steady.

Also, might want to do it on connector side, so even if you slightly damage a trace by overapplying heat, at least the plating and trace on solder side (which, unfortunately, isn't the one that connects to the ATmega, so you may still be in trouble if you seriously damage) will be left intact.

+1 on using a decent soldering iron. Makes huge difference.

10 Reply by 3d-oodler (edited by 3d-oodler 2013-10-07 19:57:15)

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Re: "Upgrade" the printrboard or get something else.

shan.destromp wrote:

Hmmm; I guess I need to do more research on what I actually need to buy and how to get everything working properly.  I was under the mistaken impression that RAMPS was fundimentally the same as a Sang or Printrboard in that it was an "all in one."  I guess the "M" in RAMPS lead me to believe that the "MEGA" portion was included, not that it was required but separate.  Just for clarification purposes; when you say MEGA, this is to what you are referencing correct?

RAMPS = RepRap Arduino Mega Pololu Shield

Yes, the "SainSmart MEGA 2560 Board for Arduino" takes care of the "AM".

As for cables, I was able to use the USB cable that came with my Sanguino board, but had to extend the Z endstop cable, as well as replace the connectors for X, Y, and Z endstops to the board.

I never had a problem with Y-shift with the Sanguino, but had to add a fan to the RAMPS board to fix it there. [lawsy's adapter came in handy: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:102463].  You'll need an adapter to mount the RAMPS/MEGA combo to the Solidoodle case.

You're better off getting 3 A4988 stepper drivers for the X, Y, and Z motors, but get an SD8825 for the extruder (see: http://www.soliforum.com/post/33374/#p33374)  Either get an SD8825 or a DRV8825 (don't get the md20a, get the newer one).

11 Reply by Hazer

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Re: "Upgrade" the printrboard or get something else.

shan.destromp wrote:
Heartlander wrote:

Forgive me if I'm talking down to you, I have no idea your level of experience except that you said your soldering is "serviceable". When I worked for the phone company installing EPABXs, almost all our work was wire wrapped. So was the stuff in the Apollo missions, BTW. So, it,s legit and professional but a lot of people are no longer aware of it since most stuff now is pin-and-socket or solder and a lot less point-to-point wiring, mostly printed circuits.

No apology needed; I was admittedly unaware of (professional style) wire wrapping; however as Hazer pointed out I was meaning the soldering required to actually get the pins onto the printrboard.  If I'm not mistaken, you have a printrboard SD3 like me; compare the board on the back of your machine against these pictures and you'll see what I mean.  That said; wire-wrapping seems like one of those "old" techs that I'll likely invest some time into learning :-)

As to my soldering skills.  Like I said; serviceable.  I can do basic joins and splices; and I have done some (limited) pcb soldering but I absolutely hated it.  I don't have the muscle dexterity or control to do it without a lot of frustration.  Hands of a surgeon they are not.

3d-oodler wrote:

Stuff

Hmmm; I guess I need to do more research on what I actually need to buy and how to get everything working properly.  I was under the mistaken impression that RAMPS was fundimentally the same as a Sang or Printrboard in that it was an "all in one."  I guess the "M" in RAMPS lead me to believe that the "MEGA" portion was included, not that it was required but separate.  Just for clarification purposes; when you say MEGA, this is to what you are referencing correct?

3d-oodler wrote:

You could go up to a more inclusive SainSmart package, but the ones I'm seeing come with end stops, which you don't need, or you could buy a Mega or SD RAMPS separately.

At least with the Prime prices shown it's cheaper to buy the kit you linked + the SD board (141.99) vs the one I linked + MEGA 144.95

Hazer wrote:

Geeetech

Just for giggles I went and found as much as I could on GT that's "included" on my amazon links.

RAMPS 1.4 $40
Mega2560 $53
SD Ramps $13
LCD 2004 $23
A4988 ($10 x 5) $50
Total $179

Included with amazon but not priced was a RAMPS wiring cable as well as a USB cable; so figure another $5-10; shipping was either $8 for Hong Kong Post (not ever) or $30 for DHL (only trust them about 1% more than HKP).  I'll admit I'm unsure if the RAMPS I was looking at included the A4988's or not.  For the price I would think not, and they weren't mentioned in the description however the product name was specifically "RAMPS 1.4 RepRap Mega Pololu A4988 extend Shield."

As I mentioned, I have Prime so I get free 2-Day shipping so even if I ordered everything on GT 40% off; it would be ~137.4 after shipping; which all things considered is "close enough" to the price on Amazon, with the added perk of not having to wait for things to be delivered internationally.  FYI the products I linked are "Fulfilled by Amazon" so they (amazon) already have posession of the product in one of their warehouses.

In hindsight I can't recall if Prime actually gives me a discount on the product itself as well as shipping; or just the free shipping.  If it's the former I can see why someone would be more inclined to lean towards smaller specialized vendors.

I told you, go to thier website, like on a Friday, Saturday, or Sunday.

Last weekend:  http://www.geeetech.com/2013/09/weekend … s-on-wk36/
RAMPS $20
LCD kit $25
DRV8825 $6
Sanguino $26
MK2A heatbed $13

Those have been on sale for 3 or 4 weekends now. You can even vote on what you want to have on sale for the next weekend. Dont go through Amazon, your shipping wont change even with prime since they are a Hong Kong company anyway. Go directly through the website on the weekend and you will see yourself.

Or you can spend over $60 more somewhere else.

To summarize: If you bought the necessary stuff last weekend:
MEGA2560 not on sale: $17
RAMPS on sale: $20
DRV8825 drivers (4 of them) on sale: $24 total ($6 each)
LCD KIT (has SD and LCD) on sale: $25

Subtotal: $86 and maybe $6 for shipping. Azteeg is $110 and you dont have driver boards or LCD.

Chuck Bittner is a quadriplegic gamer who is petitioning the major console developers to include internal button remapping in all console games. You can help.
Sign Chuck Bittners petition

12 Reply by adrian (edited by adrian 2013-09-11 11:46:05)

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Re: "Upgrade" the printrboard or get something else.

I'm not in anyway saying you can't use a standard Mega of course -  But don't discount considering using a Taurino Power version of the Mega instead... Its a standard Mega, but with much higher quality Regulators onboard for the 5V rails and accepts 12-35V reliably without cooking itself..

This means you could quite easily switch to using 24V on the motors instead of 12V... (more on that one day in another thread - its not unusual and quite 'normal' but a discussion in unto itself..)
It also means it generally speaking has better Logic supply (less ripple) given the higher quality/higher precision 5V Reg...

Due to the higher quality regs - it does cost more - but runs cooler and is more stable at higher voltages or 'standard' SD voltages. The cheaper chinese cloned mega's (which any of those <$30 ones are...) can often have lower grade 'edge of the bin' spec components... offering 'interesting' performance and behavior at times... (but hey - in the right circumstance - they are awesome for cheap projects - I use them lots....)

(Don't confuse this with Taurino 'classic' which is a standard Mega more or less - the Taurino Power is the one to head to)

13 Reply by shan.destromp

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Re: "Upgrade" the printrboard or get something else.

3d-oodler wrote:

RAMPS = RepRap Arduino Mega Pololu Shield

Yes, the "SainSmart MEGA 2560 Board for Arduino" takes care of the "AM".

As for cables, I was able to use the USB cable that came with my Sanguino board, but had to extend the Z endstop cable, as well as replace the connectors for X, Y, and Z endstops to the board.

I never had a problem with Y-shift with the Sanguino, but had to add a fan to the RAMPS board to fix it there. [lawsy's adapter came in handy: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:102463].  You'll need an adapter to mount the RAMPS/MEGA combo to the Solidoodle case.

You're better off getting 3 A4988 stepper drivers for the X, Y, and Z motors, but get an SD8825 for the extruder (see: http://www.soliforum.com/search/2088027582/)  Either get an SD8825 or a DRV8825 (don't get the md20a, get the newer one).

Yeah; I knew what RAMPS meant; I was just getting that I was confused as to whether or not the MEGA portion was included in the particular link I had posted.  Essentially I wasn't understanding that I needed a Chevy Frame, and a Chevy Body, to go along with the Chevy Engine and Chevy suspension.  I (think) I understand now.

Can you explain your justification for the alternate driver for the extruder?  I ask only because this includes 5 A4988's (presumably X,Y,Z and Dual Extruders? or one for a "spare").  I did some quick googling and everything I saw that came up only suggested a theoretical improvement in XYZ or extruder control; and given the inherent limitations of extrusion manufacturing......but if there are other reasons (less prone to failure, add other capabilities, etc) I'd be more inclined to go that route.

Gomisan wrote:

Yes, but with Amazon you are talking ONLY to American participants of these forums. Many other vendors ship internationally, but Amazon don't for pretty much anything other than books.

So it gets REALLY annoying to see Amazon constantly quoted as a source, when for the majority of the world's population it is not an option.

end rant.

Yanno, I've heard this before from people (not just in RE: 3d Printing supplies) and I don't really get it. Obviously the US isn't the center of the universe; however we are the largest consumer nation on the planet; so it only makes sense from a business standpoint to focus growth where the bulk of your profit is going to be.  Furthermore a lot of companies, such as Amazon, were founded here in the states.  It would be like me complaining that The Austrialian needs to focus more on world news instead of Australian.

I don't mean to pick on you or start a fight or anything, it's just that nobody is making you use them.  If they don't (or won't) offer what you want, then find a vendor that does.  But just the same, please don't berate me for not spending my time trying to find a vendor that supplies everyone, when I already have one I like that supplies me.

Hazer wrote:

I told you, go to thier website, like on a Friday, Saturday, or Sunday.

Last weekend:  http://www.geeetech.com/2013/09/weekend … s-on-wk36/
RAMPS $20
LCD kit $25
DRV8825 $6
Sanguino $26
MK2A heatbed $13

Those have been on sale for 3 or 4 weekends now. You can even vote on what you want to have on sale for the next weekend. Dont go through Amazon, your shipping wont change even with prime since they are a Hong Kong company anyway. Go directly through the website on the weekend and you will see yourself.

Or you can spend over $60 more somewhere else.

To summarize: If you bought the necessary stuff last weekend:
MEGA2560 not on sale: $17
RAMPS on sale: $20
DRV8825 drivers (4 of them) on sale: $24 total ($6 each)
LCD KIT (has SD and LCD) on sale: $25

Subtotal: $86 and maybe $6 for shipping. Azteeg is $110 and you dont have driver boards or LCD.

I know you said they were typically on sale but I can't be assured that they will be when I'm ready to buy them.  I usually work >60 hours a week, including weekends; I don't have time to constantly check and see if something is on sale or not; especially given that some things might wind up on sale while other required components might not.  This means I would need to keep waiting until EVERYTHING is on sale at once; or make multiple orders over the course of who knows how long.

Secondly; as I pointed out in my last message; the products I linked to on Amazon are "Fulfilled by Amazon" meaning that they are stored at an Amazon warehouse and they are indeed "Prime Eligible" so I do get free 2-day shipping, coming from a location within the US, with payment and shipping being handled by companies I already trust.  I also tend to order a bunch of stuff from them at once and just shipping savings alone typically more than offsets any "extra" I pay for the product itself.

Anyways, this all has gotten wildly off-topic and I'm really (honest!) not meaning to pick any fights; so I want to summarize what I think I've learned.

RAMPS is the preferred "upgrade" board as it is more widely used (and thus has better support), and is typically cheaper.

To make an "upgrade" to the RAMPS setup I've envisioned I would need...

  • RAMPS Board

  • MEGA Board

  • 4 drivers

  • a wiring harness of some sort, either included such as with some of the Amazon links, or home-made

  • my choice of LCD-display

  • compatable SD-Card board

As well as various nuts and bolts to mount the hardware to the SD Frame (and presumably a 3d printed mounting bracket of which I've seen several designs).

|                                                           SD3                                                |
| Mk5 Jigsaw |:| Overkill Y-Axis Bracket |:| Lawsy's X/Y Carriage Replacement |
|  M5 Z-Axis  |:|         Glass Bed            |:|               Plexiglass Enclosure       |

14 Reply by DigitalWhitewater

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Re: "Upgrade" the printrboard or get something else.

3d-oodler wrote:

You're better off getting 3 A4988 stepper drivers for the X, Y, and Z motors, but get an SD8825 for the extruder (see: http://www.soliforum.com/search/2088027582/)  Either get an SD8825 or a DRV8825 (don't get the md20a, get the newer one).

Here's an working link to what i believe he's referring to with the A4988 the drive the 3 axis and SD8825 for extruder.

http://www.soliforum.com/post/33374/#p33374

SD2 w/ mods: Rumba controller, ATX PSU, SD pro case, glass bed, with more to come...

15 Reply by 3d-oodler

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Re: "Upgrade" the printrboard or get something else.

Thanks DigitalWhitewater.  I fixed the link in my original message as not to confuse further.

16 Reply by lawsy

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Re: "Upgrade" the printrboard or get something else.

For the interest of Australian members, I purchased my RAMPS gear from this guy on ebay:

http://stores.ebay.com.au/Cultivate3d?_rdc=1

He has bundles which include the MEGA, RAMPS, PCB heat beds, belts, steppers, LCD kits, thermistors, etc.

An example:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Ramps-1-4-Ul … 3cd62228b4

lawsy's Website

17 Reply by lawsy

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Re: "Upgrade" the printrboard or get something else.

Another Aussie supplier:

http://stores.ebay.com.au/learcnc

lawsy's Website