1 (edited by Gomisan 2013-08-11 03:39:56)

Topic: Solid Infill not meeting Perimeter

The tops and bottoms of my objects look a bit weak because for some reason my 'solid' fill isn't quite reaching the edges of the perimter. It's also very fine.

I did my extrusion calibrations etc, and I gotr my single wall width to .41mm which I gather is about spot on, but take a look at this photo.

(and yes it's a failed print, an edge lifted and it got knocked off.)

I'm still waiting for glass sheets to arrive next week and hopefully I can get a nice level bed then.

EDIt - I guess I should really pose this as a question... how do I get my solid fill to actually meet the perimeter?

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2

Re: Solid Infill not meeting Perimeter

.42 width is what you are looking for.  You need to increase your output either with the extrusion multiplier or filament width

3 (edited by pastprimitive 2013-08-11 18:51:09)

Re: Solid Infill not meeting Perimeter

Looks like it could also be a belt tensioning issue.  Depending on the orientation of your prints. Try printing a 1.5" circle one layer tall, and post that picture, that will help give a better picture of what is going on. 

Also your perimeter looks like it touches on one side. That is indicative of something more then an extrusion multiplier issue, or extruder calibration.

In the mean time try calibrating your y belts again. Your y carriage should glide smoothly back and fourth with little to no resistance when the stepper motors are deactivated.  Here's a video I made for a method I use to precisely tension my belts.

http://www.soliforum.com/topic/3509/rem … ensioning/

4

Re: Solid Infill not meeting Perimeter

I had a problem like that because my extruder was not feeding properly.  from factory these extruders are not constrained on the speed at which the move.  What was happening was on retract/prime it was not actually moving as far as it thought it was, causing a period of low infill.  When I set eeprom max feedrate mm/s on E: 15, I no longer had problems like that.

That being said mostly what I was seeing was only around interior hole perimeters.  pastprimitive is probably right you need to check your belt tension.

5

Re: Solid Infill not meeting Perimeter

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I'm still trying to get to the cause of this.

I've done flow calibrations and it's spot on. I've done X/Y calibrations, even making my own calibration ring, and I've now fine tuned that so it's spot on.

But the problem remains.

Take a look atthe picture attached. You'll see the issue especially around the inner holes, but also on the Y-axis at the inside edge.

Is this the problem you saw nlancaster? the max feedrate mm/s On E is set to 45 in my EEPROM. I've just set it to 15 as per your instructions... but I'm not sure what exactly this change is doing.

Anyway, if I could get some feedback on the images below that would be great.

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6

Re: Solid Infill not meeting Perimeter

As per nlancaster's suggestion I set max feedrate mm/s On E :15 , all this achieved was a slower print job.

The actual result is almost identical, if I didnt number my calibrations you wouldnt know which was which.

see pic:

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7

Re: Solid Infill not meeting Perimeter

Looking closer at a print I just did I think it's also that on certain faces the perimeter lines arent welding to each other. I just did a little shark. The outside perimter is beautiful, perfectly straight and even. But on one face it's like a wide string stretched past the next layer.

again.. a photo helps explain.... just look at the edge along the top of his jaw.

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8

Re: Solid Infill not meeting Perimeter

is this a solidoodle 3?  just curious.  Another thing you may try is a different filament.  I calibrated my printer with sainsmart black, and when i switched to red, i had to adjust several of the settings.  I still dont have the red printing as well as the black.  the red seems to have more problems with thin walls than what the black does.

9 (edited by Hunter Green 2013-08-19 11:47:12)

Re: Solid Infill not meeting Perimeter

I have the same problem.  If you're interested, I could list the various things people have told me would fix it.

Belt tension is the most common one, though I've yet to have anyone come up with a way to describe how tight it should be other than "not too loose and not too tight" but never any way to tell which it might be.  I was told the more important part is that it's equal, which I have measured with Ian's tension gauge.

Extruder flow rate calibration has been mentioned.  This is the only one I haven't yet ruled out.  I tried it once but after completing the steps in Ian's two blog posts (this and this) on the subject, I ended up with prints totally failing; there's some variable that those two don't discuss which must also be off, that mostly cancel out with the flow rate problems, but I haven't taken the time to find out what yet.  By the way, this is supposed to be something you do separately every time you load new filament(!).

Bed levelling has been mentioned, but I don't see any off level on my bed.

Increasing flowrate on the Manual tab to 101% was supposed to possibly fix it, but it didn't.

In my experience, ask about a problem like this ten times and you'll get at least seven answers.  These printers have so many variables (software settings, hardware calibrations, filament quality, ambient conditions) and so many of them interact with one another so whenever you change one, five others have to change, which is why it's so hard to adjust anything.  This is probably the #1 thing that will have to change before these are consumer-friendly, isolating the variables from one another.

10

Re: Solid Infill not meeting Perimeter

Hunter has really hit the nail on the head. There is no 'if this is wrong, do this' sort of guide. There is for a few things, but the answers are never in absolutes.

I've tensioned my belts, and have them even. Other tests seem to support he fact that I've got my calibration of x and y axis correct. I've done the filament feedrate calibration, twice. I may try my original filament profile as a comparison....

It's an SD3, fully enclosed with an Ikea thermometer sitting inside that tells me it's ambient operating temp is around 40-42C. A borosilicate glass sheet has helped me achieve really good adhesion and also enabled me to get my bed nice and level.

New filament arrived today, and I was trying to not introduce another variable into the mix before I had this problem resolved. But I may give it a go and see if there is a difference. Though it really looks like a problem with the positioning, not the flow.

(i hope they're not famous last words)

11

Re: Solid Infill not meeting Perimeter

Gomisan wrote:

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I'm still trying to get to the cause of this.

I've done flow calibrations and it's spot on. I've done X/Y calibrations, even making my own calibration ring, and I've now fine tuned that so it's spot on.

But the problem remains.

Take a look atthe picture attached. You'll see the issue especially around the inner holes, but also on the Y-axis at the inside edge.

Is this the problem you saw nlancaster? the max feedrate mm/s On E is set to 45 in my EEPROM. I've just set it to 15 as per your instructions... but I'm not sure what exactly this change is doing.

Anyway, if I could get some feedback on the images below that would be great.


The learning curve on these things is so much fun eh?? big_smile

First,bookmark this page,you will find it invaluable in the future: http://reprap.org/wiki/Print_Troublesho … sufficient

I'm guessing you have at least one "mechanical" problem.

Looking at prints 1&2,notice how the distortion and delamination of the inner circles is on the same axis? That tells me it may be something mechanical that you've missed,not extrusion or software related.

Okay so you've got x&y axis belts properly tensioned,etc.What about the two y axis pulleys on the shaft at the rear?They're secured with set-screws,maybe one or the other is slipping on the shaft which would cause you grief?
I believe something is slipping or binding,causing your problem.

12

Re: Solid Infill not meeting Perimeter

Thanks Tony, I've already come to the same conclusion as you, but I find it very odd that I can have my X/Y calibrated so perfectly and yet still get this issue.

Interestingly on my calibration disk test I didn't have the problem arise. The main difference there was the use of solid infill and .1mm layer height.

I've done the Y axis pulleys, twice now as per the instructional video and as far as I can tell there is no binding or skipping. A cube is a cube, a single wall print like the maze challenge comes out almost perfect.

Anyway, I'm under orders from my GF to start paying her a bit more attention again, so I might not be doing so much work on the printer tonight smile I'll post any tests or results I do get a chance to do though, and hopefully this thread will eventually get to the bottom of the problem.

13 (edited by Gomisan 2013-08-21 01:37:28)

Re: Solid Infill not meeting Perimeter

Well, last night I relubed everything, and tried different Slicr settings, the problem persists. I even took the strain off the filament.

However I'm starting to think that perhaps there's something in the code. Attached is an image of the very first layer so you can see how the lines are being drawn and you can see how it outlines two different sides of the circle before doing the complete ring in the center.

The two external perimeters that DONT meet the circle are drawn in the correct location.

So I looked at other prints where the problem has shown itself, and in all cases the inner perimeter line that doesn't run close enough to the outer is one that follows a different path because of some geometry of the model.

Can someone else print this model http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:121629 and see how the printer deals with it. The settings used here are the default Solidoodle .3mm

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14 (edited by johnforeman 2013-08-21 12:38:56)

Re: Solid Infill not meeting Perimeter

Here's a screen shot of my first layer code as simulated.  I would think if the code were incorrect, it would show up here.  Although I could be wrong, i've seen stranger things happen.

As for lifting, My first layer never has gaps that large.  I set my first layer print at 200% (advanced tab) on large prints and 150% on all others.  The second layer will usually drag on the first layer because i'm pressing it down so hard but i don't worry too much about it.  My goal is to get it to stick.  I usually will have to heat cycle the bed to get my prints off.  It's the stock SD3 bed with a little hairspray.

http://vimeo.com/72809500

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15

Re: Solid Infill not meeting Perimeter

Thanks for that. Did you try and print it at all?

I have a different print here, one of my own designs. All the perimeters are perfect except one. That one is separate from the inner perimeters on some layers, but on other layers where the curve is different it is perfectly aligned.

Photos are the best way to describe this odd problem.

http://moderndystopia.net/image-share/support01.jpg

and

http://moderndystopia.net/image-share/support02.jpg

I'm still seeking answers if anyone else wants to weigh in. The STL is attached below, its a prototype spool holder to clip onto the top of the SD3.

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16

Re: Solid Infill not meeting Perimeter

Random suggestion to humor the peanut gallery....

What happens if you set all the widths in Advanced to be 0, leaving slic3r to figure it out ?

I ask because Slic3r will try and slice the model using wall widths of whats spec'ed in Advanced... if you have a model with a .5 wall, but have .42 wall widths, then Slic3r has to make a decision which it tends to do wall-by-wall rather than model-wide as to how it handles the wall meeting the infill... Sometimes it does a good job, sometimes it doesn't.

Anyway... set all of advanced to 0, reslice it, and see if that works... we can worry about the specifics of hows and whys later if it indeed fixes anything for you smile

17

Re: Solid Infill not meeting Perimeter

Thanks Adrian, I will definitely try that as soon as I get home! I appreciate the input.

18

Re: Solid Infill not meeting Perimeter

Actually i think you have a calibration issue like we have in this post:

http://www.soliforum.com/post/33892/#p33892

Can you print a circle and check if you get the same issue as in this post.

19 (edited by Gomisan 2013-08-22 09:15:25)

Re: Solid Infill not meeting Perimeter

Nice try but I think calibration is barking up the wrong tree, I've done a lot of calibration tests and I have it pretty much spot on.

My circle is below, the problem doesnt arise with squares, circles or any other shape, only when two perimeters are metting from different directions, like shown in the other examples.

Heating up the printer now to try Adrian's suggestion.

http://www.moderndystopia.net/image-share/IMG_7631.JPG

20

Re: Solid Infill not meeting Perimeter

your circle is not as round as it should be. You do have bumps and flats on the lower right und upper left corner. You can see it with the coin inserted very well.

21 (edited by Gomisan 2013-08-22 09:32:53)

Re: Solid Infill not meeting Perimeter

It's not 100% perfect, but it's not so far out that the perimeters arent placed next to each other. Take a look at the tool path where the problem is being exhibited, its a very particular sequence that causes the issue.

22

Re: Solid Infill not meeting Perimeter

Gomisan wrote:

Thanks Adrian, I will definitely try that as soon as I get home! I appreciate the input.

this sounds like a great suggestion.  let us know how it goes.

I printed my iphone case and i'm having the same issue you are, although not quite as bad.  And it's primarily on two arcs that are located diagonal to one another.  the other two arcs (case corners) are nice and tight. I'm moving down the mechanical route, I think i may have something loose, like a carriage or something.  I have been racking my brain trying to identify any mechanical characteristics that are unique to the two corner arcs that are not meeting correctly as compared to the two corner arcs that are good.
I have calibrated and calibrated and for the most part, my prints are good.  I think now that i've been printing for a few weeks i'm getting really picky.  It's also the challenge of being able to say, 'ah I know what causes that'..

23

Re: Solid Infill not meeting Perimeter

How did it go Gomisan ? any change?

24 (edited by Gomisan 2013-08-23 05:32:37)

Re: Solid Infill not meeting Perimeter

Hi Adrian, no change when I tried those settings. 

Rotating the part eliminates the problem, but potentially would just make it appear on another section.

I've narrowed it down to when the print head approaches the same edge from two different directions.

Talking to a CNC builder at work he's inclined to blame the GCode.. so I'm going to slice it with Skeinforge and test that. Or maybe there is some weird driver issue that causes it.

I'm very puzzled and since no one else has tried to print the test STL I cant tell if it's confined to my printer.

Even worse, the only time I get to sit on the forums and brainstorm is when I'm at work, not when I'm at home and able to print. hmm

johnforeman wrote:

And it's primarily on two arcs that are located diagonal to one another


What John is seeing sounds exactly like my issue.

25

Re: Solid Infill not meeting Perimeter

hmmm I wish the title to this thread was different now smile

Anyhow, this is a pic of the first layer being printed (test STL attached in an earlier post). The left print is rotated 180 and doesn't have the problem. The one on the right shows it clearly. When I think about it, I find it a little odd that the infill is lined up with the inner perimeter perfectly, which makes me think its the outer perimeter that is aligned wrong, not the inner one.

http://moderndystopia.com/image-share/1st-layer.jpg