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SoliForum - 3D Printing Community → Solidoodle Discussion → Why belts?
This is not meant as criticism, I'm just curios!
How come Solidoodle chose to use belt for X and Y axis movements?
Why not use threaded rods, just as with Z axis?
With belts, you have to adjust the tension every now and then.
With rods, there's no adjustments needed.
mla
I think that most 3D printers use belts because a threaded rod would be too slow for the rapid X/Y movements required. Ball screws would be ok but they are much more expensive (and bulky).
I think that most 3D printers use belts because a threaded rod would be too slow for the rapid X/Y movements required.
But isn't the speed determined by how fast you change polarity on the stepper motor in combination with the thread angle?
Due to the ratio of the gearing a screw thread versus belts the stepper motors will have to turn a lot further for a given distance.
So you could up the speed of the steppers but then you would be running them a lot harder. There is also the issue of backlash that a lot of people spend considerable time tuning out of the z axis.
Just to illustrate the point, our belt driven x and y axis move 88 steps per mm versus 2268 for the stock z axis threaded rod. Therefore the z stepper would have to turn 25 times faster than the x and y steppers to match their actual travel rate.
The Makibox is using lead screws for all three axes and seems to print at reasonable speed.
Just to illustrate the point, our belt driven x and y axis move 88 steps per mm versus 2268 for the stock z axis threaded rod.
Are you sure?
I lower the heat bed 10 mm on travel to avoid dragging the nozzle in the plastic (yes, I know, I should fix the real problem by making sure the bed is at the correct distance and the filament flow ratio is correct). That would mean 2 x 10 x 2,268 steps for each travel. 45,136 steps. Sounds a lot to me!
some of the best FFD printers use threaded rod for all axes (like all CNC systems... and some CNC are really fast) but it doesn't cost the same as cheap belt system...
yes, high speed ball screw systems cost cubic dollars.... many.....
lawsy wrote:Just to illustrate the point, our belt driven x and y axis move 88 steps per mm versus 2268 for the stock z axis threaded rod.
Are you sure?
I lower the heat bed 10 mm on travel to avoid dragging the nozzle in the plastic (yes, I know, I should fix the real problem by making sure the bed is at the correct distance and the filament flow ratio is correct). That would mean 2 x 10 x 2,268 steps for each travel. 45,136 steps. Sounds a lot to me!
Lawsy is right. Just open up your eeprom settings in rh and see for yourself.
fischelbyxa wrote:lawsy wrote:Just to illustrate the point, our belt driven x and y axis move 88 steps per mm versus 2268 for the stock z axis threaded rod.
Are you sure?
I lower the heat bed 10 mm on travel to avoid dragging the nozzle in the plastic (yes, I know, I should fix the real problem by making sure the bed is at the correct distance and the filament flow ratio is correct). That would mean 2 x 10 x 2,268 steps for each travel. 45,136 steps. Sounds a lot to me!
Lawsy is right. Just open up your eeprom settings in rh and see for yourself.
Wow!
with all the z axis banding and backlash problems we have with a threaded rod on Z, why on earth would you want threaded rods on x and y as well? its a simple matter to adjust belt tension as it is, and its an adjustment you dont have to do too often. if it aint broke, dont fix it.
with all the z axis banding and backlash problems we have with a threaded rod on Z, why on earth would you want threaded rods on x and y as well? its a simple matter to adjust belt tension as it is, and its an adjustment you dont have to do too often. if it aint broke, dont fix it.
The SD uses a threaded rod that is generic the more expensive cnc's use a threaded rod that is precision ground and special nuts that have zero backlash and costs extremely more.
Yeah, there is a *world* (nay, Universe) of difference between 'threaded rod' and 'precision threaded rod'. Just like there is a huge difference between 'smooth rods' and 'precision smooth rods'.
Put antoher way... ultimately.. a Butter Knife and a Steak Knife are both Knives aren't they... and come with distinctly different price tags (I'm betting you can get 20 butter knives to one single decent steak knife) but I know which I'd prefer to cut a thick piece of meat with 
with all the z axis banding and backlash problems we have with a threaded rod on Z, why on earth would you want threaded rods on x and y as well? its a simple matter to adjust belt tension as it is, and its an adjustment you dont have to do too often. if it aint broke, dont fix it.
One reason would be to avoid the need to adjust the belts.
3D printing is about to take off and become mainstream. A vast majority of potential customers/users have no inclination towards tinkering, the want an appliance. Compare to a 2D printer: You buy one, plug it in, and it works! The only "tinkering" that is commonly accepted is to switch toner/ink cartridges now and then.
3D printing is about to take off and become mainstream. A vast majority of potential customers/users have no inclination towards tinkering, the want an appliance. Compare to a 2D printer: You buy one, plug it in, and it works! The only "tinkering" that is commonly accepted is to switch toner/ink cartridges now and then.
Some 30 years after the first printers starting appearing for home use....
We've only just crossed onto the first downward fall on the 3D Printing Hype Chart.
2D Printers meanwhile, yes, live firmly at the far far far far far right hand side of that same Hype chart....
You are a pioneer. Don't you remember the issues we all had when we were 2D Printer 'pioneers' ? getting pagination to work on triple-carbon continous feed invoices? Lost track of the number of accounts runs that were ruined mid-print due to crappy tractor feeding.... Impact printers that seemed to want to make impacts on the wall behind them. Monstrous sound-proof housings to at least allow you to run it in the same office you sat in..... Just be thankful you never did Dye-Sublimation printing! Even today, millions is still spent 'outsourcing' printing from a run of a few biz cards, to family xmas cards, to full blown bound publications..... because its not as 'straight forward' or 'cost effective' as the marketing literature would have you believe...
I reckon 3D Printing is well ahead of 2D Printing when it also sat way back on the upswing of hype on the left hand side of the chart....
Context! Its an important thing
Context! Its an important thing
Yes, and so is mind-set.
If we, the pioneers as you call us (20 years into the 3D printing), keep working in a mind-set of being pioneers and tinkerers, we will go through the same slow evolution the 2D printers did. But if we change our view on how 3D printers should work to try to get fully automated 3D printing appliances, we would help the 3D printing revolution greatly!
Solidoodle claims the SD3 to be able print out-of-the-box, as does other manufacturers. If people buys SD3s on that statement (as I did, I'm not really a tinkerer), 3D printers will get a bad rap. A bad rap that will slow the spread of 3D printing down.
If we are going to move to assert that Home-Orientated 3D Printing is a 20 year mature technology... then 2D Printing can be dated back to 1436 and the Gutenberg press.... and has some 580+ years of maturity over what we are working with now.... 550 of it before they made all the same if not worse mistakes we are seeing in 3D printer land. Still puts 3D printing ahead of 2D Printing as far as I can do math...
And frankly.. if you buy tech products based on whats 'in the brochure' as being indicative of its shortcomings and difficulties..... Have I got some software and hardware solutions for you!
Caveat Emptor applies for *all* technology solutions.. not just 3D Printing
If we are going to move to assert that Home-Orientated 3D Printing is a 20 year mature technology... then 2D Printing can be dated back to 1436 and the Gutenberg press.... and has some 580+ years of maturity over what we are working with now.... 550 of it before they made all the same if not worse mistakes we are seeing in 3D printer land. Still puts 3D printing ahead of 2D Printing as far as I can do math...
And frankly.. if you buy tech products based on whats 'in the brochure' as being indicative of its shortcomings and difficulties..... Have I got some software and hardware solutions for you!
Caveat Emptor applies for *all* technology solutions.. not just 3D Printing
Now were did that come from?
Claiming that one thing is ok, because other things are worse is not a valid argument.
If 2D printing started with Gutenberg, then 3D printing started with people making clay objects tens of thousand years ago. Both statements are equally false.
If marketing is false, it is false independent on whether other marketing is false or not, and, may I add, independent on catchy Latin phrases long since superseded by statutory laws.
My point wasn't aimed at Solidoodle alone, but rather at what I believe is a fact: 3D printing is quickly becoming mainstream and the media focus is enormous. But if the 3D suppliers fail to deliver appliances, there will be a major backlash.
Solidoodle claims the SD3 to be able print out-of-the-box, as does other manufacturers. If people buys SD3s on that statement (as I did, I'm not really a tinkerer), 3D printers will get a bad rap. A bad rap that will slow the spread of 3D printing down.
Solidoodle claims that SD3 is able to print out-of-the-box, but they never claimed that it will print WELL out-of-the-box
Just joking, but I don't think that just pure "one-click" usability was ever in the design specs of Solidoodle. For example, the "Buccaneer" 3D printer claims to do so: and it covers all the moving parts in a box and makes you use filament cartridges provided by them.
Solidoodle's design goals were (are):
1) Low price
2) Providing a fully-assembled machine.
This might be questionable, but we also have to keep in mind that in one year (the time that passed since the early SD2 orders), the market changed dramatically and Solidoodle was a pioneer in this niche las year.
Solidoodle claims that SD3 is able to print out-of-the-box, but they never claimed that it will print WELL out-of-the-box
I so hope you have a pointy hat with stars and moons and a sign saying "Wizzard""
Rincewind wrote:Solidoodle claims that SD3 is able to print out-of-the-box, but they never claimed that it will print WELL out-of-the-box
I so hope you have a pointy hat with stars and moons and a sign saying "Wizzard""
Don't forget the Luggage
adrian wrote:Context! Its an important thing
Solidoodle claims the SD3 to be able print out-of-the-box, as does other manufacturers. If people buys SD3s on that statement (as I did, I'm not really a tinkerer), 3D printers will get a bad rap. A bad rap that will slow the spread of 3D printing down.
" Clean lines and easy operation - the Solidoodle 3D Printer is the right machine to turn your imagination into reality. Upload a 3D file and watch as the Solidoodle 3D Printer magically creates your part, right before your eyes. This is the printer for people who just want to print, not assemble a machine. The printer comes fully assembled with everything you need to get started - all you need to supply is a computer and power.
As anyone who has assembled a 3D printer from a kit can tell you - the process can be overwhelming... taking weeks and even months before you can even print your first object. At Solidoodle, we take the hassle out of 3D printing by shipping every machine fully assembled and ready to print -- right out of the box."
I know what they promised and for the most part I think their product does indeed deliver what they promise.
I think what a lot of people are griping about is that they didn't realize that they would have to learn how to use their printer and the quirks of 3D printing before they could expect good results. There may be some faults with a couple machines here and there but I would bet that the majority of people receive an "as advertised product". The ratio of complaints to praise is always going to be in favor of the complaints. People tend to not speak up if they are happy.
I really don't see a few bad printers slowing down the spread of 3d printing. 3D printing has an advantage over nearly all other technology booms of the past. It is being spread openly on the internet. While commercial purchases (might) suffer from bad press, the amount of new every day home users that have taken to building their own kits or purchasing prefabbed versions isn't slowing down. The fact that users are actively improving the machines they use helps the manufactures design more "user friendly" and perhaps "user proof". Automation can only come when every aspect of 3D printing becomes 100% reliable. "We" are working towards that goal. That is what the hacks and mods thread is trying to achieve.
I really don't see a few bad printers slowing down the spread of 3d printing.
While I am somewhat skeptic, I really hope you are right.
fischelbyxa wrote:adrian wrote:Context! Its an important thing
Solidoodle claims the SD3 to be able print out-of-the-box, as does other manufacturers. If people buys SD3s on that statement (as I did, I'm not really a tinkerer), 3D printers will get a bad rap. A bad rap that will slow the spread of 3D printing down.
" Clean lines and easy operation - the Solidoodle 3D Printer is the right machine to turn your imagination into reality. Upload a 3D file and watch as the Solidoodle 3D Printer magically creates your part, right before your eyes. This is the printer for people who just want to print, not assemble a machine. The printer comes fully assembled with everything you need to get started - all you need to supply is a computer and power.
As anyone who has assembled a 3D printer from a kit can tell you - the process can be overwhelming... taking weeks and even months before you can even print your first object. At Solidoodle, we take the hassle out of 3D printing by shipping every machine fully assembled and ready to print -- right out of the box."
I know what they promised and for the most part I think their product does indeed deliver what they promise.
I think what a lot of people are griping about is that they didn't realize that they would have to learn how to use their printer and the quirks of 3D printing before they could expect good results. There may be some faults with a couple machines here and there but I would bet that the majority of people receive an "as advertised product". The ratio of complaints to praise is always going to be in favor of the complaints. People tend to not speak up if they are happy.
I really don't see a few bad printers slowing down the spread of 3d printing. 3D printing has an advantage over nearly all other technology booms of the past. It is being spread openly on the internet. While commercial purchases (might) suffer from bad press, the amount of new every day home users that have taken to building their own kits or purchasing prefabbed versions isn't slowing down. The fact that users are actively improving the machines they use helps the manufactures design more "user friendly" and perhaps "user proof". Automation can only come when every aspect of 3D printing becomes 100% reliable. "We" are working towards that goal. That is what the hacks and mods thread is trying to achieve.
Wow, inspiring!
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