26 Reply by carl_m1968

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Re: Pico b3 hot end

The simple fact of the matter here is, everyone has their reasons for choosing their hot ends. My main reason is to be a non conformist and I like cutting edge then there is the lower weight and much smaller size. The guarantee against leakage and melting inserts also sold me. I had an E3D clone once that leaked more than it extruded. The way the PICO secures the thermistor also gives me peace of mind over RTV globs or Kapton tape that can put wear on the wires and sleeves.

The E3D is several years old now and for me there are too many in use now. I chose the PICO for the reasons I stated. Others may have different reasons. To me the gains or worth it. That 5% you guys came up with will make a strong impact on print quality at higher speeds. I am trying to maximize my speed while still maintaining above stock quality and the PICO will allow me to do that. The E3D probably will as well, but I have stated my reasons for not going with it for the Bowden.

For the record I do have an E3D and it is going into an alternate head  that will have the onboard extruder. But it is for a backup in the event the PICO head ever fails. My Kossel I am getting today also has the E3D as well. See it is everywhere by now.

Regardless we buy the parts for our printers to meet our needs and desires. The PICO meets mine and that really is all there is to it. Why I am even trying to defend it or explain it is beyond me. The OP originally mentioned it and I thought it might be nice to let him know others have considered it as well.

If some of data was wrong I am sorry and it is not the first time that wrong information has been posted here by somebody and it WILL NOT be the last time I am sure.

Printing since 2009 and still love it!
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27 Reply by elmoret

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Re: Pico b3 hot end

carl_m1968 wrote:

The way the PICO secures the thermistor also gives me peace of mind over RTV globs or Kapton tape that can put wear on the wires and sleeves.

The E3Dv6 does not use RTV or Kapton to secure the thermistor. It uses an M3 screw.

carl_m1968 wrote:

much smaller size.

The Pico is 56mm tall, but that doesn't include the groove mount. The E3Dv6 is 62mm tall, including the groove mount. I'd call it a push, actually the Pico may be slightly taller. At most we're talking a few millimeters.

carl_m1968 wrote:

The E3D is several years old now and for me there are too many in use now.

The E3Dv6 is 8 months old. Not several years.

carl_m1968 wrote:

I chose the PICO for the reasons I stated. Others may have different reasons. To me the gains or worth it. That 5% you guys came up with will make a strong impact on print quality at higher speeds.

5% means you can accelerate 5% faster for a given print quality. That is not a "strong impact". It also is likely less than 4%, or the Pico may even be heavier - I don't have data for their groove mount or their bowden fittings masses. If you would like to weigh those parts and report back, it would be helpful.

If you want to do something to be different/noncomformist, that's certainly your prerogative! Giving reasons that aren't based in fact is not helpful, though.

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28 Reply by carl_m1968

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Re: Pico b3 hot end

E3D in general is several years. This should be the comparison  here since we are talking about the first release of the PiCo it should be compared to the E3D V4 (initial release 2013) if we want to be correct here and compare apples to apples. But I am done with this thread.

Printing since 2009 and still love it!
Anycubic 4MAX best $225 ever invested.
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29 Reply by elmoret

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Re: Pico b3 hot end

carl_m1968 wrote:

E3D in general is several years. This should be the comparison  here since we are talking about the first release of the PiCo it should be compared to the E3D V4 (initial release 2013) if we want to be correct here and compare apples to apples. But I am done with this thread.

???

Why would that comparison be valid? You can't buy an E3Dv4, or an E3Dv5 nowadays. Advice that may have influenced your purchasing decision years ago doesn't have much relevance now. Furthermore, Pico started shipping 15 months after E3Dv4, so it wouldn't have made sense to compare the two even back then.

A relevant comparison is the comparison of currently available products.

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30 Reply by carl_m1968 (edited by carl_m1968 2015-01-20 23:43:28)

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Re: Pico b3 hot end

Why would you compare a version one product to version 6 product that has had two years to tweak and tune over the version one?

The PICO is one solid piece that alone should be a selling factor for most.

Yes you can still buy V4 and V5. Have you not shopped on ebay the 3d printer gold mine of the world? Heck you can still get the original  PEEK J-heads on ebay.

Screw it, I'm done with this forum. Obviously I know nothing and this guy knows everything. Look to him for advise. I'm out.

Printing since 2009 and still love it!
Anycubic 4MAX best $225 ever invested.
Voxelabs Proxima SLA. 6 inch 2k Mono LCD.
Anycubic Predator, massive Delta machine. 450 x 370 print envelope.

31 Reply by elmoret

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Re: Pico b3 hot end

carl_m1968 wrote:

Why would you compare a version one product to version 6 product that has had two years to tweak and tune over the version one?

Probably for the same reason that the iPhone 6 is compared to say, the Moto X. The version number doesn't matter, what matters is whats currently available! Are you also comparing the Tesla Roadster to the Ford Model T because they were both original versions? This line of reasoning doesn't make sense.

carl_m1968 wrote:

The PICO is one solid piece that alone should be a selling factor for most.

Why? I've run 200kg of material through a *genuine* E3Dv6, zero leaks. If you bend/break the SS heat break on a Pico, the entire hotend is ruined (goodbye $100). If you bend/break the heatbreak on a v6, you can get another for $18.

carl_m1968 wrote:

Yes you can still buy V4 and V5. Have you not shopped on ebay the 3d printer gold mine of the world? Heck you can still get the original  PEEK J-heads on ebay.

You most definitely cannot, those would be Chinese knockoffs (not from E3D/genuine suppliers). E3D has not produced a v5 part in almost a year, has not produced a v4 part in over a year.

carl_m1968 wrote:

Screw it, I'm done with this forum. Obviously I know nothing and this guy knows everything. Look to him for advise. I'm out.

There's an awful lot I don't know I don't know about 3D printing, but I remain quiet on those topics. I'm sure you know a ton in the area of 3D printing, particularly when it comes to DaVincis. All I'm asking is that discussions stick to facts and rationality. If that offends you, I do apologize. If I posted something incorrect, I'd want it pointed out as well for the sake of the community.

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32 Reply by evanalmighty

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Re: Pico b3 hot end

Pico looks nice, but not $100 nice.  With the popularity, large user base, and continuous development/improvement, I think the E3D hotend is the better choice.  I had the V5 and now I have the V6 although I have no plan on putting them in the Da Vinci.  I don't print PLA and I think the stock extruder works just fine.

33 Reply by darkhawk

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Re: Pico b3 hot end

Just going to state that I have seen PC filaments that do require >300C temperatures.

Not every filament is going to be the same, and while company A might say 250C, I've seen many saying >270C to 310C.

Say what you like, carl has given great information over time and I would value any information he posts.

That's not to say that I won't try it out or verify it for myself, but he's given a number of great posts and information in threads throughout the forums.

Hopefully he continues to post.

34 Reply by elmoret

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Re: Pico b3 hot end

darkhawk wrote:

Just going to state that I have seen PC filaments that do require >300C temperatures.

Where? The highest recommendation I've found is 300C.

ProtoParadigm: 270C
http://www.protoparadigm.com/news-updat … carbonate/

Lulzbot: 300C
https://www.lulzbot.com/products/polyca … t-1kg-reel

Utilimachine: 265C
https://ultimachine.com/category/catalo … onate-175m

E3D: 280C+
http://e3d-online.com/Filament/By-Mater … 1.75mm-1Kg

Matterhackers: 270C+
https://www.matterhackers.com/store/3d- … quarter-kg

Makerfarm: 265C+
http://www.makerfarm.com/index.php/2-2l … ament.html

Plastic2Print: 275-285C
http://www.plastic2print.com/eu/2-85mm- … -50kg.html

darkhawk wrote:

Not every filament is going to be the same, and while company A might say 250C, I've seen many saying >270C to 310C.

270C-310C does not mean you need to be able to exceed 300C to print, which was the point of the discussion. So then, what filaments *require* over 300C? I can think of a very short list:

FEP (no known source, but some has been custom made and tested)
PEEK, at $640/kg.

Neither are really available commercially (the PEEK is a very small batch, a few kg). Both produce absolutely nasty fumes, and aren't likely to be processed by a home user.

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35 Reply by carl_m1968

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Re: Pico b3 hot end

Airwolf says their PC should be printed at 315. Also the higher your print speed the higher your temp would need to be. Most stated temps by vendors are based on the assumption you are printing slow for quality. Just offering one from the first page Google for PC does require over 300. Some vendors do vary I guess.

So the question is now, why even bother to make a hot end capable, not to be confused with able to do such a high temp as 500 if there is nothing that needs it. The PICO by the way will not do 500 out of the box.

Had to post, I like the place.

Printing since 2009 and still love it!
Anycubic 4MAX best $225 ever invested.
Voxelabs Proxima SLA. 6 inch 2k Mono LCD.
Anycubic Predator, massive Delta machine. 450 x 370 print envelope.

36 Reply by elmoret

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Re: Pico b3 hot end

carl_m1968 wrote:

Airwolf says their PC should be printed at 315. Also the higher your print speed the higher your temp would need to be. Most stated temps by vendors are based on the assumption you are printing slow for quality. Just offering one from the first page Google for PC does require over 300. Some vendors do vary I guess.

Airwolf's hotends seem read about 30C higher than everyone else. For instance, Airwolf recommends printing Taulman's Bridge at 270C, when Taulman himself recommends 242C.

Therefore, even Airwolf's PC would be printed at about 285C on non-Airwolf hotends.

carl_m1968 wrote:

So the question is now, why even bother to make a hot end capable, not to be confused with able to do such a high temp as 500 if there is nothing that needs it. The PICO by the way will not do 500 out of the box.

An excellent question. I would guess marketing/bragging rights. Your point is the reason E3D doesn't bother including a thermistor capable of over 300C. The other issue with 500C thermistors is their accuracy in the 200-300C range is significantly reduced when compared to their 300C counterparts. That coupled with the fact that 500C thermistors are more expensive, makes it a no brainer to stick with 300C versions.

carl_m1968 wrote:

Had to post, I like the place.

Welcome back!

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37 Reply by carl_m1968 (edited by carl_m1968 2015-01-21 07:37:34)

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Re: Pico b3 hot end

Tonight I did weigh the PICO with all its parts that would be on the head. That includes the hot end, the groove adapter, the groove mount, the Bowden connector, the heater and wires, the thermistor and wires, the linear bearings x 4 and the fan for a total weight of 113 grams. So if this helps with out math, here it is.

This would be the total weight of my finished head minus the minimal amount of printed material to house and support it. The fan duct will actually be an integral part of the head on my design. The cooling requirement is not exactly the same as the E3D in regards to fan position.

Used my drug er uhm I mean chemical scale.....Yeah chemical as in holographic developing chemicals..

Printing since 2009 and still love it!
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38 Reply by elmoret

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Re: Pico b3 hot end

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1786359/Photo%20Jan%2021%2C%2011%2049%2003%20AM.jpg

115g. Those are LM8UU bearings.

a 2 gram difference, and you would need a fan mount/duct whereas I've already included E3Ds. I'd call it a tie. smile

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39 Reply by rockosmodlife

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Re: Pico b3 hot end

Interesting- thanks for the data guys!

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40 Reply by carl_m1968

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Re: Pico b3 hot end

elmoret wrote:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1786359/Photo%20Jan%2021%2C%2011%2049%2003%20AM.jpg

115g. Those are LM8UU bearings.

a 2 gram difference, and you would need a fan mount/duct whereas I've already included E3Ds. I'd call it a tie. smile

Not that it matters but I did say the Pico has different cooling requirements and that my fan holder with no duct is integral to my carriages design. The design actually removes mayerial to mount the fan and direct airflow.

Like I said though does not really matter though. May teduce my head weight which preliminary design looks to be right at 100 grams but there was an error that requires its height to be brought down several mm.

Printing since 2009 and still love it!
Anycubic 4MAX best $225 ever invested.
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41 Reply by browning54213

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Re: Pico b3 hot end

carl_m1968 wrote:

Had to post, I like the place.

Thought you were out lol tongue

42 Reply by browning54213 (edited by browning54213 2015-01-21 20:01:58)

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Re: Pico b3 hot end

elmoret wrote:
carl_m1968 wrote:

Why would you compare a version one product to version 6 product that has had two years to tweak and tune over the version one?

Probably for the same reason that the iPhone 6 is compared to say, the Moto X. The version number doesn't matter, what matters is whats currently available! Are you also comparing the Tesla Roadster to the Ford Model T because they were both original versions? This line of reasoning doesn't make sense.

carl_m1968 wrote:

The PICO is one solid piece that alone should be a selling factor for most.

Why? I've run 200kg of material through a *genuine* E3Dv6, zero leaks. If you bend/break the SS heat break on a Pico, the entire hotend is ruined (goodbye $100). If you bend/break the heatbreak on a v6, you can get another for $18.

carl_m1968 wrote:

Yes you can still buy V4 and V5. Have you not shopped on ebay the 3d printer gold mine of the world? Heck you can still get the original  PEEK J-heads on ebay.

You most definitely cannot, those would be Chinese knockoffs (not from E3D/genuine suppliers). E3D has not produced a v5 part in almost a year, has not produced a v4 part in over a year.

carl_m1968 wrote:

Screw it, I'm done with this forum. Obviously I know nothing and this guy knows everything. Look to him for advise. I'm out.

There's an awful lot I don't know I don't know about 3D printing, but I remain quiet on those topics. I'm sure you know a ton in the area of 3D printing, particularly when it comes to DaVincis. All I'm asking is that discussions stick to facts and rationality. If that offends you, I do apologize. If I posted something incorrect, I'd want it pointed out as well for the sake of the community.

I'll admit that carl has contributed quite a bit of useful info in the past, but this is crazy and I'll have to side with elmoret here...  I don't get involved in internet fights usually, but I am an engineer and the complete lack of logic here drives me insane...

43 Reply by carl_m1968

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Re: Pico b3 hot end

browning54213 wrote:
elmoret wrote:
carl_m1968 wrote:

Why would you compare a version one product to version 6 product that has had two years to tweak and tune over the version one?

Probably for the same reason that the iPhone 6 is compared to say, the Moto X. The version number doesn't matter, what matters is whats currently available! Are you also comparing the Tesla Roadster to the Ford Model T because they were both original versions? This line of reasoning doesn't make sense.

carl_m1968 wrote:

The PICO is one solid piece that alone should be a selling factor for most.

Why? I've run 200kg of material through a *genuine* E3Dv6, zero leaks. If you bend/break the SS heat break on a Pico, the entire hotend is ruined (goodbye $100). If you bend/break the heatbreak on a v6, you can get another for $18.

carl_m1968 wrote:

Yes you can still buy V4 and V5. Have you not shopped on ebay the 3d printer gold mine of the world? Heck you can still get the original  PEEK J-heads on ebay.

You most definitely cannot, those would be Chinese knockoffs (not from E3D/genuine suppliers). E3D has not produced a v5 part in almost a year, has not produced a v4 part in over a year.

carl_m1968 wrote:

Screw it, I'm done with this forum. Obviously I know nothing and this guy knows everything. Look to him for advise. I'm out.

There's an awful lot I don't know I don't know about 3D printing, but I remain quiet on those topics. I'm sure you know a ton in the area of 3D printing, particularly when it comes to DaVincis. All I'm asking is that discussions stick to facts and rationality. If that offends you, I do apologize. If I posted something incorrect, I'd want it pointed out as well for the sake of the community.

I'll admit that carl has contributed quite a bit of useful info in the past, but this is crazy and I'll have to side with elmoret here...  I don't get involved in internet fights usually, but I am an engineer and the complete lack of logic here drives me insane...


Catch up, all old news now. smile

Printing since 2009 and still love it!
Anycubic 4MAX best $225 ever invested.
Voxelabs Proxima SLA. 6 inch 2k Mono LCD.
Anycubic Predator, massive Delta machine. 450 x 370 print envelope.

44 Reply by darkhawk

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Re: Pico b3 hot end

elmoret wrote:
darkhawk wrote:

Just going to state that I have seen PC filaments that do require >300C temperatures.

Where? The highest recommendation I've found is 300C.

ProtoParadigm: 270C
http://www.protoparadigm.com/news-updat … carbonate/

Lulzbot: 300C
https://www.lulzbot.com/products/polyca … t-1kg-reel

Utilimachine: 265C
https://ultimachine.com/category/catalo … onate-175m

E3D: 280C+
http://e3d-online.com/Filament/By-Mater … 1.75mm-1Kg

Matterhackers: 270C+
https://www.matterhackers.com/store/3d- … quarter-kg

Makerfarm: 265C+
http://www.makerfarm.com/index.php/2-2l … ament.html

Plastic2Print: 275-285C
http://www.plastic2print.com/eu/2-85mm- … -50kg.html

270C-310C does not mean you need to be able to exceed 300C to print, which was the point of the discussion. So then, what filaments *require* over 300C? I can think of a very short list:

FEP (no known source, but some has been custom made and tested)
PEEK, at $640/kg.

Neither are really available commercially (the PEEK is a very small batch, a few kg). Both produce absolutely nasty fumes, and aren't likely to be processed by a home user.

elmoret, I'm not going to fight it. I respect you, both as a business man (very awesome I might add) and as someone with extensive 3D printing knowledge.
You and I both know that every filament (and printer, hot end, etc...) is different and will require different temps and settings to print. A google search for a few different PC filaments and you'll find them ranging from 270 to 300 or so. 310 maybe. What's it matter? I saw one that listed 270 to 310C. Can't remember the link, but in the end, the temperature is going to be different for everyone. That's why it's a recommended temperature with a wide range because not every printer is the same.

Lets just drop this matter. Seriously, it's petty to continue arguing it. Especially over something as minor as the max temperature of various PC filaments.

I think the Pico hot end is an interesting idea overall. I'm interested to see how carl's setup turns out to be honest.

45 Reply by wardjr

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Re: Pico b3 hot end

Perhaps you missed the previous post both elmoret and Carl have moved on.
Both better people with more knowledge and respect for one another than prior to this thread.
As the previous post says "it's old news"

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