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Topic: Remotely mounting the X-motor?

Would there be any meaningful benefit to having the x-motor mounted at the back of the machine instead of on the carriage? 

I work with commercial embroidery machines that move in the x/y plane, like Solidoodles.  But both the x & y motors are mounted at the back of the machine.  The y system is basically the same as the Solidoodle, but the x system uses a cable & pulleys instead of a belt. 

Another thread I was reading about replacing belts with fishing line got me to wondering if doing something similar would be useful for a 3D printer.

SD Press
Modeling software: 123D Design

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Re: Remotely mounting the X-motor?

You would reduce the weight of the x carriage, which is definitely a good thing. Combine it with a bowden extruder and you would be able to travel really fast. I think ultimaker has a similar design.

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Re: Remotely mounting the X-motor?

What kind of pulley system would you use?  Have you designed it yet?

It sounds like a Core X/Y system, I can't quite envision anything else that would have stationary X & Y motors.

To print or, 3D print, that is the question...
SD3 printer w/too many mods,  Printrbot Simple Maker Ed.,  FormLabs Form 1+
AnyCubic Photon, Shining 3D EinScan-S & Atlas 3D scanners...
...and too much time on my hands.

4

Re: Remotely mounting the X-motor?

You could run something like this.  Please excuse the lines not perpendicular and straight orientation I drew this up at work with paint.  This would effectively double your x resolution as well.

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5 (edited by mwille 2015-01-09 15:26:31)

Re: Remotely mounting the X-motor?

timp610 wrote:

You could run something like this.  Please excuse the lines not perpendicular and straight orientation I drew this up at work with paint.  This would effectively double your x resolution as well.

Yes, that is basically how it is set up.  The main difference is that the motor is in the middle of the back 2 pulleys & there are a couple of other pulleys to reroute the cable, but that doesn't really matter.

SD Press
Modeling software: 123D Design

6

Re: Remotely mounting the X-motor?

If you put the motor off to the side like I sketched up you would eliminate 2 pulleys. Iff you are just using flanged bearings cost wont really be much different.

7 (edited by mwille 2015-01-10 20:35:45)

Re: Remotely mounting the X-motor?

So, I've been thinking about how to use the same type of setup to remotely mount the extruder motor as well.  Here is a crude mockup (not to scale, etc.) to show a system of cables/pulleys that I think might work.  I didn't include any kind of carriages so it would be easier to see cable paths.  Of course, the motors would need brackets designed to attach them to the frame as well. 

http://www.soliforum.com/misc.php?action=pun_attachment&item=7336&download=0
The attached .zip file contains an .stl so you can see it in 3D, if you want.

For this to work, we would have to use a post processing script to adjust the extruder motor stepping to compensate for the rotation of the filament extruder drive pulley due to x & y movement.  I have no idea if such a system would be feasible or not, but maybe someone out there wants to do some experimenting.

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SD Press
Modeling software: 123D Design

8

Re: Remotely mounting the X-motor?

So after looking at this, I can see how the bottom motor is driving the X axis side to side (the bottom, vertical pulleys which would be attached to the print head carriage). 

But the top motor doesn't do anything because there's no anchor point, it simply goes around in a loop, since the cable/belt is continuous.

To print or, 3D print, that is the question...
SD3 printer w/too many mods,  Printrbot Simple Maker Ed.,  FormLabs Form 1+
AnyCubic Photon, Shining 3D EinScan-S & Atlas 3D scanners...
...and too much time on my hands.

9 (edited by mwille 2015-01-11 05:50:06)

Re: Remotely mounting the X-motor?

Yes, the top motor/system is that way on purpose so it can power the extruder drive pulley/shaft continuously.  While the print head is stationary, the motor would turn as usual to extrude filament. 

However, normal x/y movement will also rotate that drive shaft.  That's where the post processing script would be needed to counteract that rotation of the shaft to allow proper extruding.  The motors would be working in tandem similar to how the 3 motors on a delta machine do.

SD Press
Modeling software: 123D Design

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Re: Remotely mounting the X-motor?

mwille wrote:

Yes, the top motor/system is that way on purpose so it can power the extruder drive pulley/shaft continuously.  While the print head is stationary, the motor would turn as usual to extrude filament. 

However, normal x/y movement will also rotate that drive shaft.  That's where the post processing script would be needed to counteract that rotation of the shaft to allow proper extruding.  The motors would be working in tandem similar to how the 3 motors on a delta machine do.

then "that shaft" which rolls on cross bar would have to be a rack and pinion instead. and all that possible slippage/slack and mechanical parts failure chances make for more issues. plus whos gonna restring that mess when needed lol

Solidoodle 2 with Deluxe kit cover & glass bed with heater. and 2nd board SD2 used not 3rd and alum platform not installed yet still wood. also need cooling fan installed to board. use Repetier Host couple vers. Slic3r also have all free ware STL programs

11 (edited by mwille 2015-01-12 04:11:10)

Re: Remotely mounting the X-motor?

n2ri wrote:

then "that shaft" which rolls on cross bar would have to be a rack and pinion instead. and all that possible slippage/slack and mechanical parts failure chances make for more issues. plus whos gonna restring that mess when needed lol

I know it's hard to tell from the picture, but "that shaft" doesn't roll on the cross bar.  It would be mounted on the print head carriage, basically taking place of the motor.  Here is a view from a different angle.  I also added the 123D file which is a much smaller file size than the .stl. 
http://www.soliforum.com/misc.php?action=pun_attachment&item=7358&download=0

And yes, it would add more places for slippage/slack, as you said.  But I know that kind of system for x movement works on our embroidery machines.  I only have to tighten the cable maybe once a year, and it pulls around a lot more weight than a simple print head.

I thought that adapting that system for the extruder as well, might be beneficial.  I have no idea if the benefit of mounting the motors remotely would outweigh any new issues that may arise by implementing it.  I was just throwing the idea out there as a possible alternative.

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SD Press
Modeling software: 123D Design

12 (edited by wardjr 2015-01-12 04:47:08)

Re: Remotely mounting the X-motor?

I like this idea but you'd need to account for the additional torque that would be added to the x&y axis motors.  They would have to bear the additional load of the extruder motor.  Since they are mounted remotely it's a simple as using bigger motors.  On the firmware/software side of things.  I would imagine there are plenty of great minds that could help implement this system.

The real question will be, can you reduce the amount of friction on the drive system to the point that it surpasses what you gained in mass reduction of removing the extruder motor?

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Thanks to all for your contributions

13

Re: Remotely mounting the X-motor?

also what about a flex shaft just from motor shaft on rear pointed up, to the belt shaft on 'X'? it could just be curved like an arch above and still have room for bowden tubes and even filament spools in same area with inclosure over all but motors so over heating would be eliminated too.

Solidoodle 2 with Deluxe kit cover & glass bed with heater. and 2nd board SD2 used not 3rd and alum platform not installed yet still wood. also need cooling fan installed to board. use Repetier Host couple vers. Slic3r also have all free ware STL programs

14 (edited by mwille 2015-01-16 03:08:55)

Re: Remotely mounting the X-motor?

Well, I came up with a modification to the above system that will drive both X & Y using 2 remote stationary motors and only one open-loop belt/cable in total.  This would replace the current 4-belt system (3-Y, 1-X) of the Solidoodle.

Here is an overview of just the X/Y belt & pulley system.
http://www.soliforum.com/misc.php?action=pun_attachment&item=7419&download=0

I have no idea how practical this might be, or what kind of quality it would produce.  It's completely theoretical, since I just envisioned it last night. 

Unlike an H-Bot system, I believe that flexing shouldn’t be an issue with this one.  In addition, it wouldn't need to have 2 belts tensioned identically as in a Core-X/Y system (or the Solidoodle side y-belts).  Lastly, this system is different from both of those in that each axis is driven by a single motor.

So, what do you think of this X/Y system?  The possible issues I see are having an above average number of idlers, and an increased belt/cable length.  If the X motor cuts into the build area too much, it can be moved to the back by adding 2 more idlers (vertically), which would then force the need to use a round belt, fishing line, etc.

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SD Press
Modeling software: 123D Design

15

Re: Remotely mounting the X-motor?

That system would be the perfect candidate for fish line.

Printit Industries Model 8.10 fully enclosed CoreXY, Chamber heat
3-SD3's & a Workbench all fully enclosed, RH-Slic3r Win7pro, E3D V6, Volcano & Cyclops Hot End
SSR/500W AC Heated Glass Bed, Linear bearings on SS rods. Direct Drive Y-axis, BulldogXL
Thanks to all for your contributions

16

Re: Remotely mounting the X-motor?

That looks like it would work well.  I am using a somewhat similar but de-coupling the x and y axis so each motor only moves one axis.  Should be alot easier to tune and adjust.  This will be on a large 12" x 12" x 12" bot.  I should have my extrusions sometime early next week to begin work on it smile.  Pardon the rough solidworks sketch it was done real quick to show the belt route until my whole model is complete.

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Re: Remotely mounting the X-motor?

wardjr wrote:

That system would be the perfect candidate for fish line.

I kind of thought the same thing.  Just out of curiosity, what type of fishing line do you use.  A picture I saw you post in another thread didn't look like the typical stuff that comes to mind when I think of fishing line. 


timp610 wrote:

I am using a somewhat similar but de-coupling the x and y axis so each motor only moves one axis.

That's how this system works as well.  It doesn't turn both motors to move horizontally or vertically like Core-X/Y & H-Bot.

SD Press
Modeling software: 123D Design

18

Re: Remotely mounting the X-motor?

I use Sufix brand 80 pound test performance braid.  I have tried others and like this one the best.

Printit Industries Model 8.10 fully enclosed CoreXY, Chamber heat
3-SD3's & a Workbench all fully enclosed, RH-Slic3r Win7pro, E3D V6, Volcano & Cyclops Hot End
SSR/500W AC Heated Glass Bed, Linear bearings on SS rods. Direct Drive Y-axis, BulldogXL
Thanks to all for your contributions

19 (edited by timp610 2015-01-16 17:20:00)

Re: Remotely mounting the X-motor?

You can try this line although its a little pricier than others http://estore.twinline-usa.com/collecti … ools-black.  I was planning on getting a spool for use in a heated build chamber.  I heard other fishing lines (spectra/Dyneema) have issues at high temperature with creep.  Vectran is almost creep free and can handle high and low temperatures very well.  They also have kevlar line if you want to use that.

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Re: Remotely mounting the X-motor?

I can say I have not had any creep with the Sufix brand and my chamber is plenty warm.

Printit Industries Model 8.10 fully enclosed CoreXY, Chamber heat
3-SD3's & a Workbench all fully enclosed, RH-Slic3r Win7pro, E3D V6, Volcano & Cyclops Hot End
SSR/500W AC Heated Glass Bed, Linear bearings on SS rods. Direct Drive Y-axis, BulldogXL
Thanks to all for your contributions