1 (edited by roli 2014-11-28 21:50:03)

Topic: Print quality now and before

I've been noticing lately (actually a very long time now) that the prints with my Solidoodle 2 have been getting worse over time. By that I mean this - prints made after I bought printer were excellent and the prints made now are anything but. I've finally fixed my issues with printing PLA so I can now print stuff without it failing every single time. But the problem below is not fillament related. I don't know the reason for it, I just want it fixed.

Here are two models. The one on the left was my second print ever - made just after receiving my printer about three years ago. It was printed using the default solidoodle .3mm profile for skeinforge. The one on the right was made today. Using the same fillament spool (it has been stored in a dry environment in a plastic bag with a bag of desiccant so it should be fine). Using cura engine and a .2mm profile. Also using the e3d hot end.

http://www.soliforum.com/misc.php?action=pun_attachment&item=6918&download=1
http://www.soliforum.com/misc.php?action=pun_attachment&item=6917&download=1

You will notice that the print made three years ago is much better than the one made today. Which shouldn't be the case.

The main problem here is simple - I can't find a reason for that. I've noticed that straight lines in "modern prints" are not actually straight and are instead slightly jagged. Very similar to a wave. So I am guessing that something is not calibrated properly. I don't know what. It could also be slicer related - I wanted to try skeinforge again but I couldn't get it to work with the original profile. If I can remember correctly those problems first appeared when I switched from skeinforge to slic3r. Maybe that's just a coincidence. Or my memory playing tricks on me. But something is wrong and I have proof that my printer can do much more than what I have now.

So, any help will be greatly appreciated. 

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

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2

Re: Print quality now and before

Just a guess but it looks like inconsistent extrusion which could be your extruder (make sure it is still aligned and has enough tension), filament that's gone bad (try a roll you know 100% for certain is good), or your e3d is acting funny (make sure it has a fan on it and clean it out with acetone if you suspect it's slightly clogged).

3

Re: Print quality now and before

Well I did some checks. Tension is fine. Fillament should really be fine as well. I have a two month old spool of PLA as well and I get almost the same results from it. When I first replaced the stock extruder with e3d I also replaced the extruder gear since it was a bit worn out. I don't think the hot end is clogged either. I haven't had such a perfect extrusion in years and I don't get any fillament stripping anymore either.

4 (edited by jagowilson 2014-11-29 16:39:15)

Re: Print quality now and before

Are you sure you put the e3d together correctly? I found out I messed up and had to rebuild mine. Make sure your nozzle isn't flush against the heater block; it needs to be fastened into the heatbrake, Also, you installed the PTFE tubing right?

Have you done a PID autotune? Maybe your temps are oscillating too low. I've been trying T-Glase the last few days and had issue extruding it below 240--it just so happens that my autotune values were a bit wacky and it was telling almost 10c too low. Just a thought since you mentioned PLA. Maybe try ABS and see if your results improve.

5

Re: Print quality now and before

I followed the instructions on the e3d website to the T. I did install PTFE as the instructions said.

I ran PID tuning as well when I replaced it. I'll do it again just to check but I doubt that it will help.

And those results are with ABS. I prefer ABS but I do some PLA prints as well. In the end they are all the same. The only difference being that PLA doesn't stick as nice to the build surface and is a pain to print.

Also another thing wit PLA - I can't print some things with it (things that get narrower towards the top - slopes). The printer just destroys the previous layers while printing because it looks like it doesn't center the new layer on top of the old one correctly.

6

Re: Print quality now and before

Are you using a fan when printing PLA?

Printit Mason and Printit Horizon printers
Multiple SD2s- Bulldog XL, E3D v5/v6/Lite6, Volcano, Hobb Goblin, Titan, .9 motor, Lawsy carriages, direct Y drive, fishing line...the list goes on
Filawinder and Filastruder #1870.....worth every penny!

7

Re: Print quality now and before

No, I am not.
Should I be?

8

Re: Print quality now and before

What do your calibration cubes look like? Do they come out to the correct wall thickness?

9

Re: Print quality now and before

Not exactly. They come out a bit too thick.

10

Re: Print quality now and before

PLA takes longer to cool than ABS, so it needs a constant airflow for optimal results. There are several printable fan mounts available on Thingiverse. http://www.thingiverse.com/search?q=sol … ;sa=Submit

A fan can also be useful for certain ABS prints...like at the top of the Tardis. Small, tight areas where the hotend hangs out in will prolong the cooling process and keep several layers half-molten until the heat moves far enough away for said layers to cool.

Printit Mason and Printit Horizon printers
Multiple SD2s- Bulldog XL, E3D v5/v6/Lite6, Volcano, Hobb Goblin, Titan, .9 motor, Lawsy carriages, direct Y drive, fishing line...the list goes on
Filawinder and Filastruder #1870.....worth every penny!

11 (edited by roli 2014-11-30 13:09:29)

Re: Print quality now and before

Noted. I usually print larger things that don't have small details so I never really needed it. Especially not with ABS. But I am not sure about PLA. That thing goes terribly wrong in the first few layers if I am trying to print something large (around 10x10cm) that has a small slope.

This for instance is one of those prints (I've posted these pictures in some other thread a while back):
http://www.soliforum.com/misc.php?action=pun_attachment&item=6290&download=1
http://www.soliforum.com/misc.php?action=pun_attachment&item=6291&download=1

I don't particularly like PLA anyways so I'll be going back to ABS when I finish this fillament roll.

But maybe the issues are connected?

Maybe it's worth noting that these issues have existed before I replaced my hot end as well (at least the ABS prints looking terrible). The reasons why I replaced my hot end were constant fillament stripping and jamming/clogging. And the nozzle itself was a bit damaged so I lost a lot of resolution. Replacing the hot end with e3d solved those issues. But the issue with layers not being centered properly on top of the previous ones is still here (as apparent from the first picture in this thread).

12

Re: Print quality now and before

The holes look like you may be over extruding a bit. I had problems identical to that after updating RH recently, and many of my settings were changed. A good place to start is to check the filament diameter, check your nozzle size in RH (if you have a .4 nozzle, this setting will be 4.8 to allow expansion), then recalibrate your extruder.
These steps weren't a "silver bullet" for me, but it smashed 90% of my issues to where I am comfortable.

Printit Mason and Printit Horizon printers
Multiple SD2s- Bulldog XL, E3D v5/v6/Lite6, Volcano, Hobb Goblin, Titan, .9 motor, Lawsy carriages, direct Y drive, fishing line...the list goes on
Filawinder and Filastruder #1870.....worth every penny!

13 (edited by jagowilson 2014-11-30 16:12:34)

Re: Print quality now and before

Looks like you might want to check your retraction settings too. You've got some stringing going on there (which may just be from over-extrusion) and it looks like your nozzle may be drooling on the prints during non-print moves. Those bulged up lines look like travel paths to me. I don't have much experience with PLA, though.

14

Re: Print quality now and before

Interesting. I'll trying lowering my extrusion multiplier some more as soon as I get to my printer (which will be on Friday). Also I have nozzle size set to .4 right now. So I'll try playing with those a bit. I was actually thinking that the extrusion multiplier was set a bit too low because of those results.

15

Re: Print quality now and before

AZERATE wrote:

check your nozzle size in RH (if you have a .4 nozzle, this setting will be 4.8 to allow expansion), then recalibrate your extruder.


Assuming you meant "in slic3r" and "0.48 to allow for expansion", but this is the first I have heard of this.  I don't do it and I get good prints so I'm not sure why you would set the nozzle diameter to something other than its true value.  Well, this is recommended for T-glase but for typical ABS, PLA or Nylon I have never heard of this being done.  Can you expand on this?

SD4 w/ RUMBA, E3D Volcano, all bearings, glass bed

16 (edited by jagowilson 2014-12-01 22:13:51)

Re: Print quality now and before

mdrVB6 wrote:
AZERATE wrote:

check your nozzle size in RH (if you have a .4 nozzle, this setting will be 4.8 to allow expansion), then recalibrate your extruder.


Assuming you meant "in slic3r" and "0.48 to allow for expansion", but this is the first I have heard of this.  I don't do it and I get good prints so I'm not sure why you would set the nozzle diameter to something other than its true value.  Well, this is recommended for T-glase but for typical ABS, PLA or Nylon I have never heard of this being done.  Can you expand on this?

He meant extrusion width, but setting the nozzle higher is a neat trick you can use to up the flow rate with some filaments, I.e. With T-glase I found upping the nozzle diameter to .5 had about the same effect as just upping the flow rate slider in RH.  In general you want all of this to be as accurate as possible because nozzle diameter and extrusion width not only controls flow, but the entire toolpath generation process as well. The slic3r documentation covers all of this pretty thoroughly.

Some folks like to use a 0.5 extrusion width with the 0.4 nozzle. It works for them fine but I just use 0.48 because slic3r is pretty good at figuring out what you wanted in your model. It's rare I have to think about extrusion space when modeling, even less so with better thin wall detection in the latest version of slic3r.

17

Re: Print quality now and before

Speaking of changing the extrusion rate: Are there any slicers that will do that automagically to try and compensate for small places that aren't nice multiples of the width? Seems like it ought to be possible, but I don't recognize any setting that obviously means that (to me) in slic3r.

Even when everything seems to be calibrated properly, I still see solid parts in some models print with gaps.

18

Re: Print quality now and before

Claghorn wrote:

Speaking of changing the extrusion rate: Are there any slicers that will do that automagically to try and compensate for small places that aren't nice multiples of the width? Seems like it ought to be possible, but I don't recognize any setting that obviously means that (to me) in slic3r.

Even when everything seems to be calibrated properly, I still see solid parts in some models print with gaps.

Do you see the gaps in the generated G-code or just in the printed part?

Printit Industries Model 8.10 fully enclosed CoreXY, Chamber heat
3-SD3's & a Workbench all fully enclosed, RH-Slic3r Win7pro, E3D V6, Volcano & Cyclops Hot End
SSR/500W AC Heated Glass Bed, Linear bearings on SS rods. Direct Drive Y-axis, BulldogXL
Thanks to all for your contributions

19

Re: Print quality now and before

Hmm I've wondered this too... e.g. if there's a 0.3mm gap between two 0.5mm walls, does any version of slicer cruise through the middle of the gap at a lower flowrate? Seems like it could be a legitimate tactic?

SD3. Mk2b + glass, heated enclosure, GT2 belts, direct drive y shaft, linear bearings, bowden-feed E3D v5 w/ 0.9° stepper
Smoothieboard via Octoprint on RPi

20 (edited by jagowilson 2014-12-01 23:33:26)

Re: Print quality now and before

If an extrusion won't fit in the space it would knock other parts out of the way or behave otherwise unpredictably. Slic3r will do automatic extrusion width calculations and the documentation explains many of its automatic choices. But they never extrude UNDER the nozzle diameter for anything except support as its not really predictable what will happen precisely. This is my best understanding anyway.

I extrude support at 0.24 on a 0.4 nozzle for example and the support is hardly perfect, but in this case that's what we aim for; just enough to give a building surface without making removal difficult.

21

Re: Print quality now and before

jagowilson wrote:

If an extrusion won't fit in the space it would knock other parts out of the way or behave otherwise unpredictably. Slic3r will do automatic extrusion width calculations and the documentation explains many of its automatic choices. But they never extrude UNDER the nozzle diameter for anything except support as its not really predictable what will happen precisely. This is my best understanding anyway.

There is no reason this wouldn't work on the printer side of things and I fail to see why it would be unpredictable.  We do this predictably well for support all the time.  I also extrude my first layer at halve extrusion diameter all the time with great results.

Printit Industries Model 8.10 fully enclosed CoreXY, Chamber heat
3-SD3's & a Workbench all fully enclosed, RH-Slic3r Win7pro, E3D V6, Volcano & Cyclops Hot End
SSR/500W AC Heated Glass Bed, Linear bearings on SS rods. Direct Drive Y-axis, BulldogXL
Thanks to all for your contributions

22 (edited by jagowilson 2014-12-01 23:40:39)

Re: Print quality now and before

Not sure. They consider nozzleDiam * 1.05 to be the "safest": http://manual.slic3r.org/advanced/flow-math. Elmoret could probably provide some good insight on this I bet.

The e3d is a champ so maybe it just takes our abuse better?? wink

23

Re: Print quality now and before

wardjr wrote:

Do you see the gaps in the generated G-code or just in the printed part?

If I zoom in on the gcode view in repetier host, I basically see gaps in everything all the time, so it is hard to tell :-).

24

Re: Print quality now and before

Claghorn wrote:
wardjr wrote:

Do you see the gaps in the generated G-code or just in the printed part?

If I zoom in on the gcode view in repetier host, I basically see gaps in everything all the time, so it is hard to tell :-).

Yeah, it isn't the best visual aid once zoomed in that close.  I was just wondering if there wasn't something mechanical causing issues.

Printit Industries Model 8.10 fully enclosed CoreXY, Chamber heat
3-SD3's & a Workbench all fully enclosed, RH-Slic3r Win7pro, E3D V6, Volcano & Cyclops Hot End
SSR/500W AC Heated Glass Bed, Linear bearings on SS rods. Direct Drive Y-axis, BulldogXL
Thanks to all for your contributions

25 (edited by roli 2014-12-06 18:32:13)

Re: Print quality now and before

OK, I am back with my printer again.

So I've tried increasing the nozzle diameter to .48. That didn't change much (if anything). I also tried lowering the flow rate a bit (to 0.89 from previous 0.93). Not much change either.

I've then decreased the print speed (pulling the slider all the way down in curaengine). That actually did improve things quite a bit. Still not anywhere near what it should be of course. But much better.

That jagged edge thing is still there. And I actually think it is a mechanical problem. It looks like something is wrong with the XY axis.

EDIT: Look at this image:
http://www.soliforum.com/misc.php?action=pun_attachment&item=6975&download=1

The left is a print from today with slic3r on painfully slow settings, 0.3mm accuracy with .48 set as the nozzle diameter. Other settings are default for slicer (I just changed the speed and bed size). Print 2 is curaengine with the above mentioned changes and print accuracy set to 0.2mm. And the third is of course the original print.

Print on the left and the right look pretty good (much better than the one in the middle). But straight lines on the left print aren't really straight. They look like a wave. And the pattern is smooth and not random at all. That's the problem really. Everything else on this print looks pretty much identical.

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