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Topic: Non-Backlash Explanation of Z-Banding

I was looking around for help on my bed autotuning problems (http://www.soliforum.com/post/63533/#p63533) and found this thread (http://creatrtips.freeforums.org/bandin … -t129.html) very interesting.

It shows that some Z-banding issues can be caused by the slight expansion of the bed going through heating cycles.  It took me a minute to realize that the picture sequence is an extruder reflecting off of a printing bed.  This would also explain why my z-banding is unusually regular after I made my own anti-backlash parts (I'll post more details of these parts later if anyone is interested).

I would propose 3 solutions:
1 - tune the bed to be as regular in temperature as possible (what I was trying to do and still can't figure out - see my other thread)
2 - use a bed with a very low thermal expansion coefficient
3 - dynamically offset in host software based on current bed temperature - only if 1 and 2 can't be achieved

I think a good test of this would be to print a square or pyramidal shape of significant size without small perimeter slow-down and see if the banding gradually reduces distance between the bands up the shape since layers would be printed at a faster rate but the bed temperature fluctuations would most likely occur at the same regular time intervals.

(shameless plug for my other thread)........please help me figure out how to autotune my bed?

SD3, RUMBA, 360W power, ABS: Glass bed + Aquanet Extra Super Hold Hairspray, Anti-backlash Z spanner, Repetier Host + Slic3r

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Re: Non-Backlash Explanation of Z-Banding

I was thinking about it a little more and this would also explain why those who use ceramic tile or even thicker glass plates more often get a better printing experience.  The greater thermal mass would lessen the temperature swings in the aluminum bed - they probably get more regular bed temperature and therefore less bed warping.

SD3, RUMBA, 360W power, ABS: Glass bed + Aquanet Extra Super Hold Hairspray, Anti-backlash Z spanner, Repetier Host + Slic3r

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Re: Non-Backlash Explanation of Z-Banding

I will put in some experience on this: First thing to know is you have an SD3 with Sang board. I have no idea if they were only shipping aluminum Z table bracket at this time or if they still shipped some ABS Z tables. It would be nice if you could tell us which you have, makes all the difference.

Now, from my personal experience with my self-build, you are absolutely correct that heat expansion during bed warm up changes the Z height to some degree. I have measured this myself. My self-build I had use C channel to support the bedplate. It was not terribly stable so I added a polycarbonate piece to make it more planar and stable. By doing so, my Z height calibration was quite different when leveling cold vs leveling with the bed warmed up. My bed heater is well insulated, but it did not matter, still too much heat.

I will say this though, once the bed had been soaked (by this I mean the heater reaches setpoint and then sits there for 5 minutes more since the glass on top is not directly measured for heating and needs additional time to equalize) then the Z height of this setup was extremely repeatable. As in, if I warmed up my bed for 6 minutes each print, the first layer was spot on with the Z tab setting not being changed. The warping in the bed was repeatable.

I also measured my all-metal Solidoodle 3 bed for changes in Z height during 20 minutes of heating from cold. It changed a total of 0.005" during the beginning of warm up and thats it. Now my bed is not very flat (stock Solidoodle) and I have a 2.5mm mirror clamped onto it in two places. I attribute this change to the mirror. Regardless, I have no noticeable Z wobble. I do have moire which is predictable, and I also have random shifting that follows a print job that I attribute to the nozzle hitting curling on overhangs and shifting the bed on those screws, but every calibration column and large prints without overhangs have no shifting, no banding, and no wobble. On stock Solidooodle 3.

On my self build, I have some Z issues related to X-Y carriage torsion common with H-BOT setups, so I cannot say the same performance just yet. I have changed the Z bed to use a ceramic sheet instead, which stabilizes the Z frame, but I was using that as previously as insulation with the PCB heater and to stabilize bed warp. So now I need to get a thick piece of aluminum for the heater, or a thicker piece of glass that will not bend to the shape of the PCB (cheap PCB heaters are warped if the copper on the back side is not etched).

So if you are having large changes of Z height with bed heating, there are two things you need to consider: Are you waiting long enough for the bed to soak? And if you are, then I would say the heat is slowly getting to something else farther away (like plastic pieces not directly connected to the bed frame, but connected to the Z rods and heat is transferring slowly over aluminum bed frame. But I can tell you from experience that this change in height vs temperature is very predictable. So the solution is get rid of the plastic parts of your bed architecture, or simply wait long enough for the temperature to stabilize.

Chuck Bittner is a quadriplegic gamer who is petitioning the major console developers to include internal button remapping in all console games. You can help.
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4 (edited by PheonixSD3 2014-08-17 17:16:13)

Re: Non-Backlash Explanation of Z-Banding

I have the all aluminum SD3 and I print on a 2.2mm glass plate with aquanet hairspray.  My bed has always taken forever to heat up.  It has the pad type heater (not the old resistor type) but it also only has a 120W power supply.  I'll soon be upgrading to a 360W supply and RUMBA so I'm not worried about the time for now - only the bed pid tuning.  I've attached a screenshot of my bed heat-up and you can see the temperature swings near the end of the graph of about -2.5 degrees from setpoint at a period of 2 minutes.  I'm going to do the pyramid print later today.  I may also try to rig up a timelapse of a dial indicator to show the warping/deflecting vs time.

I would really love it if someone could help me with bed pid tuning so that I could test the solution of having a bed with a more stable temperature (my other thread mentioned up top).

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SD3, RUMBA, 360W power, ABS: Glass bed + Aquanet Extra Super Hold Hairspray, Anti-backlash Z spanner, Repetier Host + Slic3r

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Re: Non-Backlash Explanation of Z-Banding

Your test should provide some decent empirical data. I also hope you understaood what I meant about 'soaking', since the temperature probe for the bed is under the aluminum and it takes a lot longer for the glass to come to temperature after the graph shows the probe to be at temperature. A rule of thumb I have always gone by is to wait at least 15 minutes after the bed reports getting to temp before printing.

I am also hoping that you are not saying that the +/- 2.5 degrees of bang-bang control is actually making the Z height change significantly. But your test will provide data on that.

Chuck Bittner is a quadriplegic gamer who is petitioning the major console developers to include internal button remapping in all console games. You can help.
Sign Chuck Bittners petition

6 (edited by PheonixSD3 2014-08-17 19:20:45)

Re: Non-Backlash Explanation of Z-Banding

Yep - I do try to soak for at least 10-15 minutes.  I can't quite tell where the thermistor is located on the bed plate though - that would provide some insight.  The full range swing is actually only about 2.5 degrees negative from the setpoint (at the thermistor location).  Yeah, I wouldn't have thought a fluctuation that small would be significant either but the print should help to tell.  Just started warming the bed.  Will report back later tonight.

EDIT - clarification: doing a step pyramid so that the banding may be easier seen on the vertical corners versus trying to see the layer squashing spread out on an angled/skewed corner.

EDIT 2 - also found a couple of google groups threads on the same premise.

SD3, RUMBA, 360W power, ABS: Glass bed + Aquanet Extra Super Hold Hairspray, Anti-backlash Z spanner, Repetier Host + Slic3r

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Re: Non-Backlash Explanation of Z-Banding

This is from about a week ago showing that the banding is constant up the part and that soaking is probably not a factor past the first 10 minutes or so.

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8 (edited by PheonixSD3 2014-08-18 02:21:46)

Re: Non-Backlash Explanation of Z-Banding

I can't tell any differences in the spacing of the banding per section at first glance (picture attached).  Once I get the bootloader and firmware figured out I'll do another print and see if there is any difference.

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Re: Non-Backlash Explanation of Z-Banding

Hold that next to your z thread and tell me it's not the same pitch...

SD3. Mk2b + glass, heated enclosure, GT2 belts, direct drive y shaft, linear bearings, bowden-feed E3D v5 w/ 0.9° stepper
Smoothieboard via Octoprint on RPi

10 (edited by PheonixSD3 2014-08-18 05:28:23)

Re: Non-Backlash Explanation of Z-Banding

grob wrote:

Hold that next to your z thread and tell me it's not the same pitch...

It is - so what?.  I know this is a popular gripe and has been talked over more than most other troubleshooting topics.  I've done a ton of reading today and found this gem of a video:

It leaves me with more questions.

I'm continuing to look into the z-wobble threads but I'd really like to nail down the mechanical source.

SD3, RUMBA, 360W power, ABS: Glass bed + Aquanet Extra Super Hold Hairspray, Anti-backlash Z spanner, Repetier Host + Slic3r

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Re: Non-Backlash Explanation of Z-Banding

PheonixSD3 wrote:
grob wrote:

Hold that next to your z thread and tell me it's not the same pitch...

It is - so what?

...I'd really like to nail down the mechanical source.

Well, the shared pitch would lead one to think that the rotation of the thread and the banding might in some way be connected, right?

It's likely the thread being slightly off-true pushing the bed around: this lines up with the rotational angle of the thread, and thus in height this corresponds to the thread pitch. First step would be to address potential wobble with some kind of slop-nut arrangement - that's my recommendation at least. smile

Note that tiny movements will show up as banding, it's quite a sensitive indicator of both wobble and layer height inconsistency. Getting rid of it is a bit of an achievement, and I look forward to seeing your results! Happy hunting.

SD3. Mk2b + glass, heated enclosure, GT2 belts, direct drive y shaft, linear bearings, bowden-feed E3D v5 w/ 0.9° stepper
Smoothieboard via Octoprint on RPi

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Re: Non-Backlash Explanation of Z-Banding

A single walled column is a great indicator of what is causing your Z artifacts. Under a magnifier, you can quickly determine if your have inconsistent layer heights (even if they are repeatable) or if you have wobble.

The thing I generally do not like about the threaded rod design is that manufacturing of them was never intended for linear movement. They were meant for fastening. All kinds of defects can be present and still pass quality control because it still meets its intended function. Couple that with the sloppy bed design that twists around you are left with a hit or miss.

Chuck Bittner is a quadriplegic gamer who is petitioning the major console developers to include internal button remapping in all console games. You can help.
Sign Chuck Bittners petition

13

Re: Non-Backlash Explanation of Z-Banding

Thanks you two for keeping me sane.  I'm starting to think Rincewind's Z-Wobble firmware patch may be my best approach.  I would really love to try it out but I'm still stuck needing to burn a bootloader onto my Sang1.3a 644p (apparently programmed from the factory with the firmware but with no bootloader?).  I'm currently getting together an order which will upgrade to the 1284p. Then, Once I have that one figured out, I'll make the brave swap over to the RUMBA.

I'll revisit this when I get my firmware loaded.  I'll do the bed PID first just to firmly rule that out and then I'll play with the zwobble patch.

I wonder what would be a good way to actually test whether the rod is round/elliptical and also to test that the threads aren't somehow skewed?

SD3, RUMBA, 360W power, ABS: Glass bed + Aquanet Extra Super Hold Hairspray, Anti-backlash Z spanner, Repetier Host + Slic3r