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Topic: Ongoing problem with inconsistent filament feeding

This has been ongoing for several weeks and I've tried a number of things and I'm no closer to a solution than ever, so let me try to put it all in one place and see if I can get some new input.

The Problem

While printing, quite often the filament just stops moving, and no extrusion happens.  If you watch the filament, you see it stop moving which is not always easy to see; sometimes I mark the filament with Sharpie to see if the mark moves, and sometimes you can see the wheel on the retaining arm not turning.  If you're watching the print, you see instead of it laying down lines, it lays down only a few "crumbs", dots or flakes of plastic, though depending on the print job it isn't always obvious.

If this is allowed to go on more than a few moments, the teeth on the geared wheel will start to chew a curved notch out of the filament, causing it to get filled with crumbs of plastic, which seems to only make the problem even worse -- now the crumbs make the wheel slip more easily.

This seems to be more likely to happen on the first few layers of a print job, and if I get through those, it might get through the rest of a print job without a problem.  But that's not for sure.  Sometimes it'll happen later into a print job.  Also, note that I'm saying layers, not time.  If I am printing a narrow but tall thing, the problem only happens in the first few layers, so not for very long in terms of time, but when I print a low, flat thing, the problem continues to happen for many times more minutes than with the narrow tall thing.

If this is happening and I pause the print job in RH, then move the bed down and the head over, and click Extrude, I get a nice steady stream of filament with no other special effort required.  Generally speaking, using Extrude always gives me steady extrusion (though I do notice it seems like while the filament comes out, sometimes it comes out with a sort of zig-zag -- it looks "crinkled" like a waffle-cut french fry -- but not always).

If, while this is happening, I grab the filament and push firmly straight down, I can get the filament moving again and the print job continues, though of course it didn't put some of the plastic in which can cause problems in the print.

When I'm changing filament, I don't see anything significantly different about how much filament comes out when I'm retracting, or what its consistency is.

Note that this problem started mild (happened rarely) about a month ago (no system changes around when it started) and gradually got worse.

No noticeable correlation to humidity, ambient temperature, or other environmental factors.

Things I've Tried

This isn't dependent on filament -- I have had it with every color I've tried.  I'm using mostly Octave but I also have it with some Solidoodle and some SainSmart filament.

I usually run my extruder at 200 for light colors and 205 for dark.  I've tried running it higher and lower, and it hasn't seemed to matter.

I've done a complete tear-down, clean, and rebuild of my (stock Solidoodle) extruder, including an acetone soak for the hot end.  I am fairly sure there's no clogging going on.  Nothing came out during the clean other than filament, no dried-up or burnt-up looking bits, nothing grainy, just filament.

I have tried to adjust the tension in the spring on the tensioner arm.  As is often the case I have a hard time with the direction "make sure it's not too tight or too loose" without some way of gauging which is which.  But I've tried just about every tension level possible by this point and haven't seen the problem go away.  I also followed adrian's directions for gauging the tension: tight enough for the cog to make teeth marks, but not so tight that I can't move the filament freely while the motors are turned off.

Also at adrian's suggestion I tried a "cool clean" -- let the filament cool to 160-175 then pull it out, in hopes of dragging out any gunk.  Never got any gunk during multiple attempts at this, but since I also did the full tear-down/clean/soak/rebuild, I don't think there's any clogging, so it's probably moot.

At Ian's suggestion I mounted a 40mm fan to the front of my MK4 so that it blows on the PEEK but not on the hot end, in case too much heat is creeping up the PEEK and causing the filament there to get gooey.  I actually put it on so I can pivot it into place or out of the way, and have tried many prints both ways.  No noticeable difference, though to be fair, I think Ian intends this more as a long-term means of preventing a type of clog he thought might have been responsible (but which I'm thinking isn't actually responsible), than as a fix for any existing problem.

I've redone the Z axis calibrations and bed leveling a few times just to be sure.  (Didn't re-do any other calibrations, but my circles are still printing as perfect circles, when they print, so I don't think I have a Y axis or belt tension problem.)

My System And Settings

Printer: SD3, original recipe with Sanguinololu board.
Extruder: Lawsy MK4, stock Solidoodle PEEK and hot end, and see above about PEEK cooling fan.
Bed: Standard thickness glass with binder clips, AquaNet hairspray, stock heater, wood platform.
Case: Plexiglas enclosure on three sides; don't keep a lid on except during preheats.
Other Mods: Z-nut hugger, cable guide, filament guide, and fans on the circuit board, and that's really it.
Settings: Mostly defaults, plus 1mm Z-lift in Slic3r.
Filament: Mostly Octave, some Solidoodle and SainSmart.  Stored in a plastic case with a GoldenRod.
EEPROM Settings: Adjusted XYZ via calibration cube, but not feedrates (an attempt caused problems and I backed it out).  Settings attached.

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Re: Ongoing problem with inconsistent filament feeding

I forgot to mention, I ordered a spare Solidoodle hot end and PEEK assembly because I thought replacing it might be the fix, and if not, I'll have a spare.  Almost two weeks and it's not yet gone to "Shipping" status yet, so it may be a while.

While I'm not convinced the problem is in the hot end, I am sorely tempted to get the E3D and hope that the problem goes away.  I've been watching to see if someone's going to put all the directions for installing an E3D in one place so I can go through them and figure out what I need to do and whether I'd be able to hack it.

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Re: Ongoing problem with inconsistent filament feeding

Hunter Green wrote:

I forgot to mention, I ordered a spare Solidoodle hot end and PEEK assembly because I thought replacing it might be the fix, and if not, I'll have a spare.  Almost two weeks and it's not yet gone to "Shipping" status yet, so it may be a while.

While I'm not convinced the problem is in the hot end, I am sorely tempted to get the E3D and hope that the problem goes away.  I've been watching to see if someone's going to put all the directions for installing an E3D in one place so I can go through them and figure out what I need to do and whether I'd be able to hack it.

Let temptation take its course you will never look back. I had very similar problems with my stock hot end and finally came to the conclusion that it was time to try something different.  I have been running the E3D for about a month and a half now and all of the things you describe go away.  Install is pretty straight forward of the E3D I even used the stock thermistor with it as I was to lazy to rewire the connector.  It works just fine set up like this and it is really nice to be able to walk away and count on it finishing the job.

My conclusion for the stock hot end was that I was getting some leakage where the barrel meets the peek and as that would build up the filament would stick to it and strip on the gear.  I too had a routine similar to yours of stop print, clean, extrude and resume.  Trust me when I say there is a better way.

Printit Industries Model 8.10 fully enclosed CoreXY, Chamber heat
3-SD3's & a Workbench all fully enclosed, RH-Slic3r Win7pro, E3D V6, Volcano & Cyclops Hot End
SSR/500W AC Heated Glass Bed, Linear bearings on SS rods. Direct Drive Y-axis, BulldogXL
Thanks to all for your contributions

4 (edited by Hunter Green 2013-09-10 22:34:37)

Re: Ongoing problem with inconsistent filament feeding

Yeah, I think I will.  What I need to do first is go through the threads and make for myself a "how to" step by step, targeted to my level of knowing stuff, for installing the E3D.  (Reading through the thread didn't do that for me -- too many discussions as people were figuring it out without me being clear which thing they settled on, too many sidetracks.)  Once I have it all in one place, I will probably feel confident I can do it, and then I'll go ahead and order it.  (Then, when I've gotten it and installed it, I'll be revising my how-to as I go, and I'll offer it up for one of the wikis if they want it.)

I have asked Solidoodle to cancel that hot-end order that's still pending, and they said they could.  Will have to see how long it takes to get a refund (and whether there's a fight involved).

Though I wouldn't mind if anyone has other ideas for things to try now, because even if I get an E3D ordered, I wouldn't mind if I could be printing until then.  It may be a few days (or weeks) before I can invest the continuous block of time it'll take to install the E3D, but in the meanwhile, if I could get the printer up and running, it takes only a few minutes here and there interspersed between other things to get print jobs started, so I could be getting some of my backlog of prints happening.

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Re: Ongoing problem with inconsistent filament feeding

Order it up and when it arrives let myself or any other user of the E3D know and I would be happy to take you through the setup.  While your waiting try pulling your hot end apart and re-clean it but this time when you reassemble it try screwing the barrel into the peek while its hot. Just be careful to not strip the threads. It needs to be rather tight.

Printit Industries Model 8.10 fully enclosed CoreXY, Chamber heat
3-SD3's & a Workbench all fully enclosed, RH-Slic3r Win7pro, E3D V6, Volcano & Cyclops Hot End
SSR/500W AC Heated Glass Bed, Linear bearings on SS rods. Direct Drive Y-axis, BulldogXL
Thanks to all for your contributions

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Re: Ongoing problem with inconsistent filament feeding

Here's my attempt to write up E3D mod instructions, ready to be corrected: http://www.soliforum.com/post/35881/#p35881

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Re: Ongoing problem with inconsistent filament feeding

I was looking up "tension arm calibration" and came to your post. YOU WERE/ARE HAVING THE EXACT SAME ISSUE AS I AM. Sorry for the caps but I'm so excited to not be alone on this..

I mean, like - to the T.  Every part of your description matches my problem. Always the first few layers. If I catch it and push the filament down it may continue the print job to completion... or sometimes will start doing this again later in the print.. I've tried all kinds of filament. I've replaced the hot end and peek. -NOTHING- ..what's crazy also is, wardjr replied to my post as well. Ha.  smile

Did you ever figure this out? I'm tempted to buy the E3D ..but I'd really like to know if you figured out another solution or if you just bought it, and if you bought it, did it fix your issue as wardjr says it fixed his?

Please let me know. I read your whole post and I couldn't have written out the issue better myself.

Thank you.

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Re: Ongoing problem with inconsistent filament feeding

Apologies for keeping an old thread alive... Can't resist the temptation for some experimenting though. I was just thinking about the difference between manual extrude (which was fine) and the printing extrusion (which was not after a while). Mostly looks like extrusion speed - and Ian's idea of soft filament in the barrel holds some weight in that case. xtaticlyme, maybe it's worth experimenting to see whether the problem persists if you increase the extrusion rate a little by upping layer thickness and x/y feedrates (if possible)?

Note that a fan on the PEEK might not help as much as it seems, because the heat is probably being conducted up the filament itself, and the PEEK is partly chosen due to it's heat-insulating nature (so the heat from the filament wouldn't make it to the PEEK except if it's well stuck already, and there's a huge dT through the wall - i.e. the outside might be kept at ambient but the inside could still be hot). Naturally a conductive alu finned barrel (i.e. E3D) would deal with this much better; the dT through the barrel wall would be tiny, and thus the dT between filament and barrel inner wall half way up would be much larger in general and thus the heat flow out of the filament higher (even over an air gap, but particularly where it rests on the wall). Also, I hear the ID of the E3D barrel is smaller than the PEEK stock barrel, which limits the curvature of the filament and thus the radial pressure between them when the filament buckles (which would affect friction and sticking).

Maybe it's possible to support the filament inside the PEEK barrel with wee piece of teflon tube (I have no idea but I seem to recall this kind of idea floating around these forums somewhere)? That might limit the buckling to the extent it doesn't exert so much pressure on the wall and thus stick? Another experiment?

Not sure this explains why it would get worse over time though - residue/dust or even wear on the barrel wall perhaps?

/hypothesizing only, see what the experienced people think

SD3. Mk2b + glass, heated enclosure, GT2 belts, direct drive y shaft, linear bearings, bowden-feed E3D v5 w/ 0.9° stepper
Smoothieboard via Octoprint on RPi