1 Topic by Photog

  • Photog
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2013-11-26
  • Posts: 199

Topic: Hair Spray vs. Sandpaper vs. Glass Bed vs. Slurry

Has anyone tried all of the above methods? If so, which works best?

Looking at ways to improve the adhesion. Getting warping on most prints. Tried a small amount of hairspray last night, Aussie brand. Helped a little but not a lot. Think I sprayed too much in one spot because now there's a big stain on the kapton tape. Can I clean the hair spray off of the kapton tape using acetone? How much acetone should I use?

I heard you can use 600 grit sandpaper to rough up the surface of the kapton tape a bit. Anyone try this method? How well does it work? Does it make the bottom of prints look bad?

I am considering the glass bed option. But i don't want to do any disassembly of the print bed to get it on. Can I just set a sheet of glass on top of the kapton tape that is on the alunminum bed? If so, how would I hold it on? if I used binder clips, wouldn't the print head smack into them sometimes?


Thanks

My SD3:  Clear plexiglass case, case heater, X axis stabilizer, Z axis stabilizer, thumb screws, filament guide, heatsinks on all motors, extruder fan, controller fan, heatsinks on motherboard, Y rod pillow block, USB and Power on/off switch, fully calibrated including trimpot tuning. Am I missing anything?

2 Reply by wardjr

  • wardjr
  • wardjr
  • Moderator
  • Offline
  • From: Minnesota
  • Registered: 2013-06-10
  • Posts: 5,624

Re: Hair Spray vs. Sandpaper vs. Glass Bed vs. Slurry

(copied from glass bed hacks and mods)
I've said it before and I will say it again.  Leave the Kapton on the platform then spray the underside of your glass with the same hairspray you put on the top side.  Put the glass on your platform and heat it up.  No clips, perfectly level glass and it sticks well enough to not move and is still easy enough to remove.  And no I don't have to respray every time I remove it.
I run my bed at 108 and everything seems happy.

Printit Industries Model 8.10 fully enclosed CoreXY, Chamber heat
3-SD3's & a Workbench all fully enclosed, RH-Slic3r Win7pro, E3D V6, Volcano & Cyclops Hot End
SSR/500W AC Heated Glass Bed, Linear bearings on SS rods. Direct Drive Y-axis, BulldogXL
Thanks to all for your contributions

wardjr's Website

3 Reply by Hazer

  • Hazer
  • Hazer
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2013-07-19
  • Posts: 478

Re: Hair Spray vs. Sandpaper vs. Glass Bed vs. Slurry

Kapton actually stuck better for me on small parts. But I did not want to ruin it down the line, so I put on a mirror. Hairspray is a must. It does not stick as well as the kapton, but I can use a razor blade to remove parts and even clean it (no more acetone, I just scrape it down and spray more on every 20 prints). As for clippping, 2 clips is really all you need. I have one in the front right corner, and one midway down the left side. Since homing is back-right and my prints are centered on the bed and never actually use the full 8x8, the head never goes near the clips.

Now this was a discussion on sticking. If you are getting lifting, none of this helps with that. Lifting (or curling) occurs due to varying temperatures and plastic shrinkage during the print. Some things that help mitigate that are: using a brim; using acetone/slurry on the brim after it has printed; creating artificial gaps in your model to keep the stress away from the edges as the print cools down; enclosure to reduce drafting; extruder fan to 'freeze' the plastic faster as it is laid down; etc.

Chuck Bittner is a quadriplegic gamer who is petitioning the major console developers to include internal button remapping in all console games. You can help.
Sign Chuck Bittners petition

4 Reply by Photog (edited by Photog 2013-12-03 21:51:38)

  • Photog
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2013-11-26
  • Posts: 199

Re: Hair Spray vs. Sandpaper vs. Glass Bed vs. Slurry

Hazer wrote:

Kapton actually stuck better for me on small parts. But I did not want to ruin it down the line, so I put on a mirror. Hairspray is a must. It does not stick as well as the kapton, but I can use a razor blade to remove parts and even clean it (no more acetone, I just scrape it down and spray more on every 20 prints). As for clippping, 2 clips is really all you need. I have one in the front right corner, and one midway down the left side. Since homing is back-right and my prints are centered on the bed and never actually use the full 8x8, the head never goes near the clips.

Now this was a discussion on sticking. If you are getting lifting, none of this helps with that. Lifting (or curling) occurs due to varying temperatures and plastic shrinkage during the print. Some things that help mitigate that are: using a brim; using acetone/slurry on the brim after it has printed; creating artificial gaps in your model to keep the stress away from the edges as the print cools down; enclosure to reduce drafting; extruder fan to 'freeze' the plastic faster as it is laid down; etc.

What I'm getting is the edges lifting off the bed in the corners about halfway into the prints, eventually the whole part comes unstuck and the print head pushes the print around the bed.

Only happening on medium to large parts. Anything smaller that atkes 20minutes or less is not a problem...

My SD3:  Clear plexiglass case, case heater, X axis stabilizer, Z axis stabilizer, thumb screws, filament guide, heatsinks on all motors, extruder fan, controller fan, heatsinks on motherboard, Y rod pillow block, USB and Power on/off switch, fully calibrated including trimpot tuning. Am I missing anything?

5 Reply by Hazer

  • Hazer
  • Hazer
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2013-07-19
  • Posts: 478

Re: Hair Spray vs. Sandpaper vs. Glass Bed vs. Slurry

Photog wrote:

What I'm getting is the edges lifting off the bed in the corners about halfway into the prints, eventually the whole part comes unstuck and the print head pushes the print around the bed.

Only happening on medium to large parts. Anything smaller that atkes 20minutes or less is not a problem...


Now this was a discussion on sticking. If you are getting lifting, none of this helps with that. Lifting (or curling) occurs due to varying temperatures and plastic shrinkage during the print. Some things that help mitigate that are: using a brim; using acetone/slurry on the brim after it has printed; creating artificial gaps in your model to keep the stress away from the edges as the print cools down; enclosure to reduce drafting; extruder fan to 'freeze' the plastic faster as it is laid down; etc.

Chuck Bittner is a quadriplegic gamer who is petitioning the major console developers to include internal button remapping in all console games. You can help.
Sign Chuck Bittners petition

6 Reply by Photog

  • Photog
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2013-11-26
  • Posts: 199

Re: Hair Spray vs. Sandpaper vs. Glass Bed vs. Slurry

Wouldn't it be the same thing? If it's not sticking wouldn't that cause it to lift off...

My SD3:  Clear plexiglass case, case heater, X axis stabilizer, Z axis stabilizer, thumb screws, filament guide, heatsinks on all motors, extruder fan, controller fan, heatsinks on motherboard, Y rod pillow block, USB and Power on/off switch, fully calibrated including trimpot tuning. Am I missing anything?

7 Reply by ronsii

  • ronsii
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: PNW
  • Registered: 2012-10-28
  • Posts: 1,723

Re: Hair Spray vs. Sandpaper vs. Glass Bed vs. Slurry

It depends on the degree of sticking.... when I clean mine good I get things to stick so good if I don't wait for the bed to cool and release the print I can try to hammer it off but sometimes it will break the print!!! and I do not have layer separation issues smile
But if you have it barely stuck on then any lifting will simply help release it from the print bed in a matter of time or printhead swipes across the print.

8 Reply by Photog

  • Photog
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2013-11-26
  • Posts: 199

Re: Hair Spray vs. Sandpaper vs. Glass Bed vs. Slurry

ronsii wrote:

It depends on the degree of sticking.... when I clean mine good I get things to stick so good if I don't wait for the bed to cool and release the print I can try to hammer it off but sometimes it will break the print!!! and I do not have layer separation issues smile
But if you have it barely stuck on then any lifting will simply help release it from the print bed in a matter of time or printhead swipes across the print.

i just cleaned the bed with acetone and a cloth. it lifted right off 2 minutes after printing started.

i just hit it with hairspray again going to give it another try. will too high of a bed temp make it lift or is higher better??

My SD3:  Clear plexiglass case, case heater, X axis stabilizer, Z axis stabilizer, thumb screws, filament guide, heatsinks on all motors, extruder fan, controller fan, heatsinks on motherboard, Y rod pillow block, USB and Power on/off switch, fully calibrated including trimpot tuning. Am I missing anything?

9 Reply by Hazer

  • Hazer
  • Hazer
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2013-07-19
  • Posts: 478

Re: Hair Spray vs. Sandpaper vs. Glass Bed vs. Slurry

Lifting is caused by the top most layers cooling faster than heated bottom layers. This means the top and inside shrink while the bottom does not, causing stress and 'pulling' the print at the edges. Even if you are in a room that has no air-flow, ambient is still cooler and will draft into the work envelope. An enclosure will stop the most minute drafts, giving the print longer to equalize.

Other solutions are to use a brim. since the brim is a single layer, it has no stresses pulling up on it.

Another solution is to purposely make voids in your model, so that you break the path of the stress pulling at the edges.

Chuck Bittner is a quadriplegic gamer who is petitioning the major console developers to include internal button remapping in all console games. You can help.
Sign Chuck Bittners petition

10 Reply by Zarni

  • Zarni
  • Zarni
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Cambs, UK
  • Registered: 2012-08-09
  • Posts: 87

Re: Hair Spray vs. Sandpaper vs. Glass Bed vs. Slurry

For me hairspray was always open to a number of different facts to determine how well the print would stick. A fresh spray would be fine, but only if the plate was cleaned with acetone first, but then is it the cleaning of the plate which improved the sticktion? But how long until you need to respray as you don't want to keep adding to the sticky mess that can build up.

I was getting fluff stuck to the hairspray which obviously made it all worse and had a couple of prints come loose, so I have stopped all that and gone back to just cleaning the kapton with acetone.
Currently I clean the bed quickly with acetone after each print but am finding I now get the exact opposite problem and can't get the prints off. In the past I've resorted to a pole to bang the prints off they were stuck so well (the printer didn't like that at all ). I'm now increasing the z stop and decreasing the first layer modifier to try and find a happy medium.

Maybe you should try and decrease the z stop a little and see if the first layer is smooshed in to the bed a little more. but only a little as you don't want to tear your kapton.

I am going to try wardjr idea of spraying the back of the glass though as that sounds like a good idea. I must have missed that post in the past.

11 Reply by Photog (edited by Photog 2013-12-04 18:00:11)

  • Photog
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2013-11-26
  • Posts: 199

Re: Hair Spray vs. Sandpaper vs. Glass Bed vs. Slurry

Should the hairspray be applied when bed is cold or hot? Tried searching but there's conflicting answers.

Also when installing the glass bed, I'm taking it some adjustments have to be made to account for the extra height of the bed. Is it as simple as just raising the Z-stopper?? Or do settings have to be put into the firmware or host software too?

My SD3:  Clear plexiglass case, case heater, X axis stabilizer, Z axis stabilizer, thumb screws, filament guide, heatsinks on all motors, extruder fan, controller fan, heatsinks on motherboard, Y rod pillow block, USB and Power on/off switch, fully calibrated including trimpot tuning. Am I missing anything?

12 Reply by cckens

  • cckens
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2012-09-13
  • Posts: 591

Re: Hair Spray vs. Sandpaper vs. Glass Bed vs. Slurry

Cold is probably best as you want to spray the glass outside the unit so you don't get everything in there sticky.

And yes, manual z-height with the z-tab screw is the only thing you have to adjust.

13 Reply by Photog

  • Photog
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2013-11-26
  • Posts: 199

Re: Hair Spray vs. Sandpaper vs. Glass Bed vs. Slurry

cckens wrote:

Cold is probably best as you want to spray the glass outside the unit so you don't get everything in there sticky.

And yes, manual z-height with the z-tab screw is the only thing you have to adjust.

I'm actually using the stock capton bed right now not glass but I'm sure the same applies, thx

My SD3:  Clear plexiglass case, case heater, X axis stabilizer, Z axis stabilizer, thumb screws, filament guide, heatsinks on all motors, extruder fan, controller fan, heatsinks on motherboard, Y rod pillow block, USB and Power on/off switch, fully calibrated including trimpot tuning. Am I missing anything?

14 Reply by cckens

  • cckens
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2012-09-13
  • Posts: 591

Re: Hair Spray vs. Sandpaper vs. Glass Bed vs. Slurry

Photog wrote:
cckens wrote:

Cold is probably best as you want to spray the glass outside the unit so you don't get everything in there sticky.

And yes, manual z-height with the z-tab screw is the only thing you have to adjust.

I'm actually using the stock capton bed right now not glass but I'm sure the same applies, thx

Then you may want to use a shield when you spray.  A piece of cardboard will do or even a thick piece of paper.  This will keep the insides mostly spray-free.