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Topic: avoid warping with large, flat object

Dear friends
I'd like to print an enclosure for a 7" screen. Given it will be 180mm large, it fits nicely in SD3 print bed, and there is space for a brim too.
Problem is even the 4mm brim is not strong enough to avoid warping effect. I was printing at 95C bed temperature on a glass bed with generic hairspray.

http://www.nicosoft.it/pictures/screen.jpg

What do you suggest to combat this warping? ABS slurry instead of the hairspray? Ceramic tile? Even bigger brim?
I understood that temperature gradients on the bed surface increase tension, thus leading to warping.

Also remember there is a hole in the middle for the visible portion of the screen. Shall I manually put a brim there in the model?

Thanks!
Nick

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Re: avoid warping with large, flat object

Do you have an enclosure? I've done 7" parts in ABS on glass, bed at 110C, no brim, no warp.

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Re: avoid warping with large, flat object

Also if the bed isn't level or the z-stop adjustment is a little off, it might not put down a very solid 1st layer, which can also let it warp (that was my recent experience, anyway, fiddle with both settings and things got better).

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Re: avoid warping with large, flat object

The thing that has worked best for me is using a sheet of glass over the heated print bed with ABS glue covering the surface that will contain the part.  I made ABS glue out of previous failed prints added to acetone in a glass container.  Let the ABS melt into the acetone until it forms a thick paste, then apply it to the glass and allow the print bed to reach temperature.  It essentially acts like a raft/brim for the entire print.  I have now made separate batches of ABS glue for every color filament I have so that the bottom of the print isn't a different color.

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Re: avoid warping with large, flat object

For larger prints, I use 7 or even 10 mm brims. I put my bed at 100C, but the big trick is to turn it on and let it soak for at least 10 minutes. That sensor is right on the heater, not on the glass. The glass takes awhile to get to temperature even though the  software says it is at temperature.

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Re: avoid warping with large, flat object

elmoret wrote:

Do you have an enclosure? I've done 7" parts in ABS on glass, bed at 110C, no brim, no warp.

+1

What's a brim? I know no uses for such things. Even with bed at 100C, I only use glass and hairspray. I never have issues.

SD3 w/ mods:
Glass bed with QU-BD heat pad upgrade, threadless ballscrew w/ 8mm smooth rod, spectra line belt replacement, lawsy MK5 extruder, Lawsy replacement carriage, E3D hotend, Ramps 1.4 w/ reprap discount controller, DRV8825 drivers, 12v 30A PS, Acrylic case, Overkill Y-idlers, Filament alarm, Extruder fan + more.

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Re: avoid warping with large, flat object

Use PLA is another easy solution for large parts smile

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Re: avoid warping with large, flat object

agentsmith wrote:

Dear friends
I'd like to print an enclosure for a 7" screen. Given it will be 180mm large, it fits nicely in SD3 print bed, and there is space for a brim too.
Problem is even the 4mm brim is not strong enough to avoid warping effect. I was printing at 95C bed temperature on a glass bed with generic hairspray.

http://www.nicosoft.it/pictures/screen.jpg

What do you suggest to combat this warping? ABS slurry instead of the hairspray? Ceramic tile? Even bigger brim?
I understood that temperature gradients on the bed surface increase tension, thus leading to warping.

Also remember there is a hole in the middle for the visible portion of the screen. Shall I manually put a brim there in the model?

Thanks!
Nick

I've never used ABS slurry,too messy.This trick is just as good.

Let the printer make the brim and first layer.While it's printing,take a 1/4 in wide artist's brush,dip in acetone and go around the entire outside of the brim.This will melt the brim to the bed as good as slurry would.

With an open part like that I suppose you could try going around the inside of the print with acetone as well but I'd leave that as an option.

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Re: avoid warping with large, flat object

Claghorn wrote:

Also if the bed isn't level or the z-stop adjustment is a little off, it might not put down a very solid 1st layer, which can also let it warp (that was my recent experience, anyway, fiddle with both settings and things got better).

+1  the preview of this model doesn't look like it has alot of solid areas.. meaning...  it *shouldn't* warp.
I agree with claghorn, this might be a first layer issue. try to calibrate first layer.
if not.. check your platform for bend/warped..  use glass + hairspray

Solidoodle2 with Ceramic tile heated bed http://www.soliforum.com/topic/2544/my- … eated-bed/
"1kg should last for an while" is a lie!

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Re: avoid warping with large, flat object

thank you for all your overwhelming support guys!

Yes I have an enclosure and my first layer is calibrated, as well as the bed. I used the paper method, I hate it because it almost destroyed the printer, the limit switch doesn't limit z-travel with manual commands...

To be able to print without the brim would be a dream!

To sum it up, here's what I'm going to try, and keep you updated:

- warm the bed at 100-110C and give the glass time to warm as well. Will check with IR thermometer even if I know it's not a reliable tool (Elmoret said it countless times hehe)
- increase extrusion multiplier (calibration cube has 0.39mm thickness instead of 0.42)
- lower first layer height for a more squished first layer
- increase brim width to 7mm
- try the ABS slurry or a different brand of hairspray - sorry I don't think they sell Aquanet in Europe

Other tests:
- try the artist brush trick to melt the brim
- replace glass with ceramic tile (but the brick and mortar store sells only 20 tiles per pack haha)
- use PLA (but this introduces other issues compared to ABS)

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Re: avoid warping with large, flat object

If you run out of options you could try taulman t-glase PET filament.  It will produce almost no shrinkage on a part that size.  Might take some time to get to Dublin though.

SD2 with E3D, SD Press, Form 1+
Filastruder
NYLON (taulman): http://www.soliforum.com/topic/466/nylon/

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Re: avoid warping with large, flat object

105C with no brim didn't work, but 110C with 4mm brim worked!

Unfortunately no one warned me about the MAXTEMP safety switch, which tripped in the middle of print when it reached (after 2 hours) 110C. I've also noticed adhesion improves when you already printed over a couple of times on fresh coat of hairspray

So this is the result... Next evening, next try smile

http://www.nicosoft.it/pictures/image3.jpg

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Re: avoid warping with large, flat object

you should be able to get this print with a little playing.  I have warping problems but only when doing large and tall objects that are pretty solid.  I dont have a trip like you do in yours.  I run my print bed between 115 and 118 all the time.  I can run it hotter but i have never tried to push it to see what the hottest it will run is.  If i want a REALLY good grip i set my first layer to .175 and it really smashes down that first layer.  At that point its as good as i can get it with glass and hairspray and i have pretty good success.  Im sure you will get this one with just a bit of tinkering.

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Re: avoid warping with large, flat object

I will consider your first layer advice Chuddly for other objects, but for this one I think the brim is the best approach, because it gets removed very easily and leaves a sharp edge. With a smashed first layer I guess you have to sand it a little.

My stock bed took 2 hours to reach 110C with an enclosure, I guess you pimped your heated bed smile

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Re: avoid warping with large, flat object

2 hours!???

I have a stock bed and it's up to temp in about 5 mins, maybe a little more because I don't time it, but certainly not even 20 mins.

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Re: avoid warping with large, flat object

Hey agentsmith here's another trick that no one mentioned, glue stick!

There's several benefits over hair spray, you can put it much more accurately (for instance just in the edges of your print), you can apply it with the glass already inside the printer, it wipes of with just water and because it is REAL glue, it sticks to the glass all the time.

The only disadvantage really is that you have to reapply on every print but if anything else fails or it's too complicated it's worth a try.

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Re: avoid warping with large, flat object

agentsmith wrote:

I will consider your first layer advice Chuddly for other objects, but for this one I think the brim is the best approach, because it gets removed very easily and leaves a sharp edge. With a smashed first layer I guess you have to sand it a little.

My stock bed took 2 hours to reach 110C with an enclosure, I guess you pimped your heated bed smile

My machine is bone stock...bed and all.  Mine takes about 12-15 min to get up to 118 so its not a super fast process but its not a 2 hour process either by any stretch.  I think you may have issues with your machine if your having to wait that long!

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Re: avoid warping with large, flat object

I have 2 suggestions:
1. I have posted this around this board before, so it is starting to sound like a skipping record.  Use an ABS slurry over the hairspray, but make the ABS slurry using ABS pipe cement solvent available at the hardware store.  The MEK in the solvent welds the ABS to the hairspray.  Acetone does not.  Since the hairspray sticks to the glass really well, you now have a complete bond from part to bed.  I print large parts like that all the time on a 95°C bed.  This may be all you need to solve your problem.

2. You can put 1cm counterbores all over the inside of your enclosure that leave ~1mm wall thickness.  This will break up the linear shrink stress that causes the warping.   

Look at the sliced model and iterate the counterbore depth to leave complete extruder paths so that there is no zig-zag infill in the remaining wall.  If you are successful then you won't see them on the outside of the part.

19 (edited by Stevos758 2013-09-27 13:40:36)

Re: avoid warping with large, flat object

I will have to look into this ABS pipe cement. I am running a print right now that can use this.

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Re: avoid warping with large, flat object

Stevos758 wrote:

I will have to look into this ABS pipe cement. I am running a print right now that can use this.

Yikes. 

1. I suggest only painting part of the surface under that part.  It will be hard to remove if the whole thing is bonded down. 

2. Also, I find that pieces with that much surface area and weight won't need a brim.  If that wants to warp, one layer of brim won't stop it.  In fact, I don't use brims at all anymore since we figured out the super sauce.

3. The stuff you want is the pipe cement SOLVENT.  Not the cement.  That way you can add as much ABS as you wish.  Something like skim milk works for us.  Hairspray 1st.  Then sauce.

4. To remove a part that big, remove the glass plate from the Doodle while it is hot.  Set it down glass side up.  You can watch the part separate as the glass plate cools (the part shrinks and the bond fails).  Trying to remove it immediately is difficult and not worth the risk to the part, the glass and several arteries in your fingers.