1

Topic: Bizarre printer operation... help?

I'm trying, and failing, to troubleshoot a truly bizarre printer malfunction that all has to do with the motion of my axes.

If I move X, Y, or Z away from their home points I may (occasionally) get normal operation, but that's quite rare. More often I get choppy movement - what I mean by choppy movement is like a dot-dot-dot pattern of movement with a very obvious (about 1 second long?) pause between each "dot" of movement. When I move X or Y toward their home points I nearly always get that choppy dot-dot-dot movement, but sometimes get a high-pitched BZZZZZ and no movement for a couple seconds and then suddenly the choppy dot-dot-dot movement again. Also, if I tell it to home an axis and I get that buzz first, it will only move a few tens of millimeters before stopping completely. It doesn't actually go until it hits an endstop.

This started when I was in the process of trying to get a bowden system working. As part of that, I had changed out the extruder stepper, and everything was working normally (aside from having unrelated issues with backpressure on the bowden). I got it to the point where it was sort of working, then left for dinner. When I came back and powered everything on, suddenly nothing wanted to work right.

The extruder was doing the same choppy motion thing, but would occasionally respond to an extrude command by moving at 10x speed, and other times would give me the same buzzing sound as the other axes. This was also when the choppy motion on other axes started.

I checked my vrefs, because I had been playing around with those in an effort to get the bowden working, and found that my extruder was running at far higher power than normal (vref was .605). That gives current well within what the new motor can handle, but in an effort to troubleshoot I turned it back down to the default value. The other vrefs were all within normal ranges.

I re-greased all the rods, checked that none of the wires were being pinched, made sure the belts were all still tight, disconnected and reconnected all motor plugs (with the power completely disconnected, of course), tried a different USB port and different USB cable, restarted the computer I was using, switched to pronterface, and saw no improvement with any of those things.

The one improvement I saw was when I tried pronterface and turned feedrate down from 3000mm/min to 2000mm/min. At that point the axes moved smoothly again.

So have I fried something in my electronics somehow? Is this some kind of weird bandwidth related issue (as the decrease in feedrate making things better seems to imply)? I'm stumped and extremely frustrated.

If it would anyone else in understanding the issue I could (tomorrow at this point) take video of the choppy motion so you really know what I'm describing, but if you imagine movement being controlled by a morse code key and someone repeatedly making morse code dashes followed by a pause that's exactly what it seems like to me.

2

Re: Bizarre printer operation... help?

A video would certainly help smile

It kinda sounds like a problem with the drivers for the steppers....or a communication problem with the computer??? what's the background on the setup? printrboard? windows? etc...

3

Re: Bizarre printer operation... help?

one other thing.... when you are telling an axe to move and it gets choppy does it lose steps on the screen or stay accurate, this will tell if it is a comm problem.

4

Re: Bizarre printer operation... help?

ronsii wrote:

A video would certainly help smile

It kinda sounds like a problem with the drivers for the steppers....or a communication problem with the computer??? what's the background on the setup? printrboard? windows? etc...

Ah, I forgot that important background:

It's a Solidoodle 2 with the original sanguinololu electronics. I haven't modified them in any way.

I'm running Windows 7 and normally connecting with Repetier, although I also tried pronterface in my troubleshooting attempts.

The movement is accurate to what the control software is expecting, except when I get the loud buzz followed by some small amount of choppy motion. So it really does seem like a communication problem, but I've done everything I can think of from the USB cable back to troubleshoot and gotten nothing. Could something have gone bad on the board, while just sitting around powered down, to cause a communication problem like this?

5

Re: Bizarre printer operation... help?

It's a long shot, but try cooling the drivers if you aren't already.  Maybe they are going into thermal shutdown.

How is the Z axis doing?

6

Re: Bizarre printer operation... help?

IanJohnson wrote:

It's a long shot, but try cooling the drivers if you aren't already.  Maybe they are going into thermal shutdown.

How is the Z axis doing?

The drivers shouldn't be overheating, they each have a heatsink and there's a 50mm fan blowing on them. It shouldn't be a problem with heatsink adhesion either, those have been on for about a month now, and I used thermal epoxy to attach them so they can't have shifted or come loose.

7

Re: Bizarre printer operation... help?

Ok, here are the promised videos:

The x-axis - http://youtu.be/0p4aRBZ6jn0

Notice that even when it is moving smoothly, that motion ends with a loud clunk. That only started when the choppy motion started.

The y-axis - http://youtu.be/DyUIAt6Bl0A

This is where I managed to catch the high pitched buzz and failure to move.

The z-axis - http://youtu.be/n2L_ojsKLa8

Even the Z does the choppy motion.

Also worth noting, in making the videos the printer was connected to an entirely different PC from the one it was on earlier this evening when I first started seeing this problem. There didn't seem to be any difference in performance.

8

Re: Bizarre printer operation... help?

One more (possibly) related detail, although I don't know how this could be causing it... The new extruder motor seems to be wired backwards.

I wired it exactly the same way as the stock motor, but apparently color coded leads don't mean what I assumed they meant. Hitting extrude makes the motor run in reverse, and hitting retract makes it run forward. I figured I'd get around to fixing that when I got the bowden setup working correctly, but never got that far.

I don't think this could be related, though, because everything was working normally for at least an hour with the extruder motor wired backwards. But hey... this is so weird I figured I'd throw in all the details in case I'm missing something simple.

9

Re: Bizarre printer operation... help?

the backwards thing should not affect the other motors... I think....

another thing I just thought of is the 12 volt powersupply if it is cutting out or not supplying enough power it could do this maybe a bad connection on the board, will it do the same thing with the bed and extruder off? I didn't get a chance to watch the vids yet.... I know ....just short on time as always smile

10

Re: Bizarre printer operation... help?

ronsii wrote:

another thing I just thought of is the 12 volt powersupply if it is cutting out or not supplying enough power it could do this maybe a bad connection on the board, will it do the same thing with the bed and extruder off? I didn't get a chance to watch the vids yet.... I know ....just short on time as always smile

I haven't actually tested the motion with the bed or extruder on, all of this (videos included) is done with a cold bed and extruder. I haven't unscrewed, removed, and reattached the power connection but I did check it and it sure SEEMS to be in there as solidly as ever.

11

Re: Bizarre printer operation... help?

Not sure if this helps, but on the odd occasion I get the same thing. It is only ever during homing though (that I know of) and it hasn't seemed to affect any of my prints. It happens on my x and y axis, not z.

12

Re: Bizarre printer operation... help?

pretenda wrote:

on the odd occasion I get the same thing. It is only ever during homing though (that I know of) and it hasn't seemed to affect any of my prints.

I had seen that too, this same choppy movement (without the high pitched noise and failure to move) when homing before starting a print and then the print is normal. Unfortunately, the current choppiness persists whether I'm manually moving things or it's running a print.

13 (edited by ronsii 2013-09-14 03:54:23)

Re: Bizarre printer operation... help?

It looks as if the choppiness is evenly spaced??? would be curious to see just how many mm's you can travel before the chops start in or if they are at distinct intervals relative to home... have you tried giving it gcode to move 8mm the 9mm's and so on until it chops?

edit: ignore my earlier post about the power supply, if it was bad the sd lights would be flickering....

14

Re: Bizarre printer operation... help?

I've experienced this choppy movement before, but only if I have "Show filament" checked in Repetier.  Turn it off if it is on, as it takes up processor cycles.  Works fine with it off.  Running Win 7, 64 bit, with 8 gigs of ram, but still happens when I watch it draw on screen while printing,

15

Re: Bizarre printer operation... help?

You also may want to check your powersupply voltage or better yet check  voltage at the board.  I've seen some strange things happen when voltage starts to drop

16 (edited by beavertank 2013-09-15 20:09:15)

Re: Bizarre printer operation... help?

The voltage shows as 12.7 volts at the screw terminals, and at both of the easy access 12v points I know of on the board. The supply seems to be ok.

After further playing, my earlier impressions were wrong. The speed the move is done at makes no difference to whether or not it's choppy.

However, I've discovered that the beats (or pauses, if you prefer) are regular like ronsii mentioned. They're not regular with distance traveled, though, they're regular in time.

No matter what speed you move at, the beats occur every 1/4 second (or as near as I can figure by tapping my toe to the beat and comparing against the second hand of a clock). So why would it be pausing in a pattern of 240hz (edit: my stupid mistake, it's pausing at 4hz or 240bpm)? Has the microcontroller been damaged?

While I was working on getting the new extruder attached I completely removed my electronics cover and, in the process, left all of the screws holding the board in place out. The double sided tape connection under the screw terminals seemed to hold it just fine. However, what I noticed (after applying power to the board, unfortunately) was that there are metal spacers under the board which aren't actually connected to the case as I had assumed. So... all three of them fell out, and in the process one wedged against the top two programming terminals on the board (the ones labeled 5v and Ground).

I immediately pulled power, saw no magic smoke escaping, and figured it was ok because on power-on the board responded and everything seemed ok. But now I'm wondering if the problem didn't begin then and I just didn't notice it for an hour or so because I was futzing with the extruder and not gantry motion (and the only thing I did to confirm that the board was still controlling things was homing the axes when they were already at home, meaning a short less than 1/4 second move).

I'm thinking I'll try reflashing the firmware and see if that works/fixes anything. But if that fails, or fails to resolve the problem, maybe I'll pop a new controller in. Luckily, I have an extra Atmega1284P with a bootloader and vanilla Marlin on it that I can try instead. Here goes nothing...

17

Re: Bizarre printer operation... help?

Reflashing seemed to work for the first three moves, it was great! X moved fine, then homed fine. Y moved fine, and then gave me the screech on homing and suddenly everything was screwed again. Sigh.

18 (edited by Shotline 2013-09-16 05:11:09)

Re: Bizarre printer operation... help?

Did you say you have not put the metal spacers back in (the ones between the board and the case)?  If not, put them in.  I have had weird actions while working on the board with it powered on.  I think it is some strange grounding thing.  With the spacers out, crazy stuff, with the spacers in, everything fine.

19

Re: Bizarre printer operation... help?

Shotline wrote:

Did you say you have not put the metal spacers back in (the ones between the board and the case)?  If not, put them in.  I have had weird actions while working on the board with it powered on.  I think it is some strange grounding thing.  With the spacers out, crazy stuff, with the spacers in, everything fine.

The metal spacers are all back in and the board is screwed into place now. They were only briefly out during part of my playing with the extruder motor, so I don't think that's the root of the problem.

I've looked into it a little further, and shorting that 5v pin to ground shouldn't have done anything but make an internal fuse open until the short was removed. Probably. So I'm not sure I've done damage to my microcontroller.

Unfortunately it's now Monday, and I'm busy again, so this will probably go onto the back burner for a few days... but I'll update the thread with any new findings or failures at some point this week when I find time to play with it again.

20

Re: Bizarre printer operation... help?

The issue has been resolved! There are no answers, unfortunately, but the problem has been solved...

I tried everything I could think of, short of replacing the microcontroller, and got nowhere. Finally I decided the board was safe and probably wouldn't kill my new chip, so I changed it out, flashed the firmware, and... it works! Hooray!

So what can we tell from this?

When you take out the screws which connect your electronics to the case, don't forget about the metal spacers. -and- Shorting the programming pins to ground on a sanguinololu board ends badly for your microcontroller.

Sigh... another day, another fun experiment in homebrew electronics. It's a good thing I'm not easily discouraged.