Topic: Very hot X stepper motor
My X stepper motor runs a ~70 C.
I this normal?
If not, what could cause it (except for the obvious: badly lubricated rods)?
- fischelbyxa
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Re: Very hot X stepper motor
"normal" in the sense that Solidoodle overdrives them from the factory.
Steppers are constant power devices - they do not draw more current under load.
There are fan ducts you can print that cool the x-axis stepper, they are a good idea.
- fischelbyxa
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Re: Very hot X stepper motor
elmoret wrote:
"normal" in the sense that Solidoodle overdrives them from the factory.
Overdrives, as in not really powerful enough?
Does that mean I could get a beefier one, do some config (steps / mm, eg) and have a cooler motor?
Re: Very hot X stepper motor
fischelbyxa wrote:
elmoret wrote:"normal" in the sense that Solidoodle overdrives them from the factory.
Overdrives, as in not really powerful enough?
Does that mean I could get a beefier one, do some config (steps / mm, eg) and have a cooler motor?
Beefier is a problem, because beefier means heavier.
F = m*a -> as mass increases, so does required force. Since steppers have a maximum torque output, what this means is you'll end up having to run the axis slower.
There are some motors with special magnets/windings that mange more torque from a given motor mass, but your best bet is just a fan.
- fischelbyxa
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Re: Very hot X stepper motor
elmoret wrote:
fischelbyxa wrote:elmoret wrote:"normal" in the sense that Solidoodle overdrives them from the factory.
Overdrives, as in not really powerful enough?
Does that mean I could get a beefier one, do some config (steps / mm, eg) and have a cooler motor?
Beefier is a problem, because beefier means heavier.
Yet another argument for delta printers, then...
Re: Very hot X stepper motor
fischelbyxa wrote:
Yet another argument for delta printers, then...
Bowden extruders are not a bad solution here either, attacking it from the other direction. You can reduce the mass of the entire x-axis by moving the motor off the axis, and thus, get higher speeds and acceleration at low motor outputs and therefore cooler operation. This is also a reason why multi-extruders are often Bowden setups, as not only can you get it more compact, but lighter.
That's not to say Bowden doesn't present its own issues though, such as ooze, filament friction issues in the bowden tube, etc.
- fischelbyxa
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Re: Very hot X stepper motor
adrian wrote:
fischelbyxa wrote:Yet another argument for delta printers, then...
Bowden extruders are not a bad solution here either, attacking it from the other direction. You can reduce the mass of the entire x-axis by moving the motor off the axis, and thus, get higher speeds and acceleration at low motor outputs and therefore cooler operation. This is also a reason why multi-extruders are often Bowden setups, as not only can you get it more compact, but lighter.
That's not to say Bowden doesn't present its own issues though, such as ooze, filament friction issues in the bowden tube, etc.
Should have gone for a Rostock printer, it's got both!
But, boy, would I be in a quagmire of calibrations! 
Re: Very hot X stepper motor
fischelbyxa wrote:
Should have gone for a Rostock printer, it's got both!
But, boy, would I be in a quagmire of calibrations!
hey, you have a printer, get to printing your rostock parts! i already ordered all the goodies i need for a "traditional" rostock, less the powersupply and RAMPS/arduino (might get a RAMBO instead) and the hotend.
consider printing the larger parts in PLA, ive had warping issues with the carriages and idler end pieces when printing in ABS.
platform should be ABS due to proximity to hotend, everything else can be PLA.
Re: Very hot X stepper motor
Mine gets WAY over 70C and feels hotter than the bed. The X axis has a distinct disadvantage that the other two do not, The Y and Z axis motors are attached to the metal case and that syncs heat off of them. The X is hanging out in the middle of plastic ville with no heat dissapation.
Re: Very hot X stepper motor
pmerana wrote:
Mine gets WAY over 70C and feels hotter than the bed. The X axis has a distinct disadvantage that the other two do not, The Y and Z axis motors are attached to the metal case and that syncs heat off of them. The X is hanging out in the middle of plastic ville with no heat dissapation.
Most people use this or a derivative of it: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:38399
Solves the problem entirely. I use temperature reactive plastics, and when the fan is in operation, the motor stays <25°C
Re: Very hot X stepper motor
THank you! I was looking to attach a fan to it!
- fischelbyxa
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Re: Very hot X stepper motor
As I'm too lazy to attach a fan, I'm thinking about gluing heat sink(s) to the motor.
Should do the trick. Or?
Re: Very hot X stepper motor
Would help a little, but since passive heating is interactive (coefficent ?) with Ambient, its not going to be as good as a fan, and perhaps not even effective if you utilise an enclosure.
But worth experimenting with, but I feel it would be at best a 30% solution of a fan....
Re: Very hot X stepper motor
So I have had my printer for less than a week and have noticed this. Does the motor have early failures due to this? If its an all metal construction it should be able to take the heat.
After seeing this I was thinking that solutions for north bridges would probably be the perfect size. A heat sink wouldnt be completely passive because the motor itself is constantly moving. I would think a good heat sink would be better than a fan without the heat sink.
This heat sink seems like it would be effective enough and fit:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a … 6835999031
Other than that there are a few actively cooled option that seem like they would be more effective have a heat sink and fan:
http://www.amazon.com/Deep-NBRIDGE-Nort … ge+cooling
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a … alParent=1
- fischelbyxa
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Re: Very hot X stepper motor
autoxer wrote:
This heat sink seems like it would be effective enough and fit:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a … 6835999031
Don't you thing you'll move the center of gravity too far away from the mounting points, creating too big a twisting strain?
I just ordered a couple of these:
http://uk.farnell.com/abl-heatsinks/bga … dp/2084439
Will add them one at a time (up to four) and monitor the temperature and behavior in between.
- 2n2r5
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Re: Very hot X stepper motor
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/nema- … d_734.html
This would lend me to believe that 70C is fine but wouldn't hurt to have a fan on it. No need to go nuts though.
SD3 w/ mods:
Glass bed with QU-BD heat pad upgrade, threadless ballscrew w/ 8mm smooth rod, spectra line belt replacement, lawsy MK5 extruder, Lawsy replacement carriage, E3D hotend, Ramps 1.4 w/ reprap discount controller, DRV8825 drivers, 12v 30A PS, Acrylic case, Overkill Y-idlers, Filament alarm, Extruder fan + more.
Glass bed with QU-BD heat pad upgrade, threadless ballscrew w/ 8mm smooth rod, spectra line belt replacement, lawsy MK5 extruder, Lawsy replacement carriage, E3D hotend, Ramps 1.4 w/ reprap discount controller, DRV8825 drivers, 12v 30A PS, Acrylic case, Overkill Y-idlers, Filament alarm, Extruder fan + more.
Re: Very hot X stepper motor
The rated max ambient on those motors is 50C @ 100% rated current. Solidoodle drives them at 130%, though...
- 2n2r5
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Re: Very hot X stepper motor
Is it the motors that are being over driven or just the drivers? I know the A4988 is only 1A max without cooling. The new Printrboard should be good though. They are A4982 which look like they are good for 2A.
I was having trouble finding the post that had the data sheet for the original stepper motors. I thought it was in the wiki but I can't find it there either. Just replacements.
SD3 w/ mods:
Glass bed with QU-BD heat pad upgrade, threadless ballscrew w/ 8mm smooth rod, spectra line belt replacement, lawsy MK5 extruder, Lawsy replacement carriage, E3D hotend, Ramps 1.4 w/ reprap discount controller, DRV8825 drivers, 12v 30A PS, Acrylic case, Overkill Y-idlers, Filament alarm, Extruder fan + more.
Glass bed with QU-BD heat pad upgrade, threadless ballscrew w/ 8mm smooth rod, spectra line belt replacement, lawsy MK5 extruder, Lawsy replacement carriage, E3D hotend, Ramps 1.4 w/ reprap discount controller, DRV8825 drivers, 12v 30A PS, Acrylic case, Overkill Y-idlers, Filament alarm, Extruder fan + more.
Re: Very hot X stepper motor
2n2r5 wrote:
Is it the motors that are being over driven or just the drivers? I know the A4988 is only 1A max without cooling. The new Printrboard should be good though. They are A4982 which look like they are good for 2A.
I was having trouble finding the post that had the data sheet for the original stepper motors. I thought it was in the wiki but I can't find it there either. Just replacements.
http://www.soliforum.com/topic/459/soli … iciencies/
I misremembered - A4988s are at 130% rated max, x-axis stepper is at 110% rated max.
20 2013-06-29 23:35:05 (edited by 2n2r5 2013-06-29 23:38:18)
- 2n2r5
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Re: Very hot X stepper motor
For an extra $50 bucks, I feel like solidoodle could have made these things technically in spec. They did a great job of sourcing low cost parts and making them work. However, the electronics didn't need to be pushed to the limits. You can get the A4988 within range (up to 2A) with the following for about $10-15 including shipping.
Printable Fan Shroud
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:86223
4 bucks +shipping for 20 (only need 4 total)
http://www.amazon.com/Cosmos-Aluminum-C … 26MC43SQCQ
And a few of these.
$4 per fan shipped
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002OF … &psc=1
Can't do too much with that motor though. Over driven is over driven. Back down the Vref to .4 and keep your rods lubed.
SD3 w/ mods:
Glass bed with QU-BD heat pad upgrade, threadless ballscrew w/ 8mm smooth rod, spectra line belt replacement, lawsy MK5 extruder, Lawsy replacement carriage, E3D hotend, Ramps 1.4 w/ reprap discount controller, DRV8825 drivers, 12v 30A PS, Acrylic case, Overkill Y-idlers, Filament alarm, Extruder fan + more.
Glass bed with QU-BD heat pad upgrade, threadless ballscrew w/ 8mm smooth rod, spectra line belt replacement, lawsy MK5 extruder, Lawsy replacement carriage, E3D hotend, Ramps 1.4 w/ reprap discount controller, DRV8825 drivers, 12v 30A PS, Acrylic case, Overkill Y-idlers, Filament alarm, Extruder fan + more.
Re: Very hot X stepper motor
fischelbyxa wrote:
autoxer wrote:This heat sink seems like it would be effective enough and fit:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a … 6835999031Don't you thing you'll move the center of gravity too far away from the mounting points, creating too big a twisting strain?
I just ordered a couple of these:
http://uk.farnell.com/abl-heatsinks/bga … dp/2084439Will add them one at a time (up to four) and monitor the temperature and behavior in between.
Yes, that one I linked was rather heavy. I browsed Microcenter and went with this one (under 2 ounces):
http://www.microcenter.com/product/2533 … e_Heatsink
They also had some RAM heat sinks which I put on the bottom, but the surface area isn't that much.
mounted it to the side and put some isolation from the bed. Thinking easy to add a fan blowing on the heat sink hanging on the case and this doesn't effect the mass much.
22 2013-06-30 03:45:02 (edited by adrian 2013-06-30 04:12:35)
Re: Very hot X stepper motor
^^ a fan seems way easier and less hedgehog at this point.... Not sure this is any 'easier' and its definetely not more effective... but anyway...
Note that most of the heat is generated on the base of the stepper, not the side.... do the bulk of that arrangement is going to be cooling 2 poles of the motor and thats about it... it really needs to live on the base OR all around the motor.. not just on the side.... theres a whole bunch of other poles on the motor not getting any cooling at all.
I'll stick with my much more compact and far more effective fan shroud that allows full enclosure of the SD thats also a lot neater and cools all the motor... I just really think your effort-and-hardware-required-for-a-return on this approach is totally out of spec.. Do the maths on the cooling coefficent of passive fins vs an active fan in an enclosed build environment at 50-60°C ...
It also seems way more involved than just bolting a fan on.... But each to their own...
Re: Very hot X stepper motor
adrian wrote:
^^ a fan seems way easier and less hedgehog at this point.... Not sure this is any 'easier' and its definetely not more effective... but anyway...
Easier to deal with since it took about 5 min to mount it
adrian wrote:
Note that most of the heat is generated on the base of the stepper, not the side.... do the bulk of that arrangement is going to be cooling 2 poles of the motor and thats about it... it really needs to live on the base OR all around the motor.. not just on the side.... theres a whole bunch of other poles on the motor not getting any cooling at all.
Motor outside is all metal and thermal conduction is quite high as is thermal mass. Outsides are steel/ferrous metal while bottom and top are aluminum. I think the bottom being hotter is more an artifact of the aluminum versus steel than actual temp. Its not the most accurate, but using an IR thermometer, the sides were actually hotter while the bottom felt hotter.
adrian wrote:
I'll stick with my much more compact and far more effective fan shroud that allows full enclosure of the SD thats also a lot neater and cools all the motor... I just really think your effort-and-hardware-required-for-a-return on this approach is totally out of spec.. Do the maths on the cooling coefficent of passive fins vs an active fan in an enclosed build environment at 50-60°C ...
The heat sink would have fit underneath the whole point of putting it there was to get it out of the 50°C build environment. If you did not notice by the picture it is isolated by an inner wall of cardboard for now. With the much cooler air and way higher surface area and good conduction path this is effective. The temp reached on the heat sink is measuring higher than the bottom and the same on all sides of the motor. Its running at 50°C with the IR thermometer where it was running 75°C with that on my big print before I installed.
Is there a way to get motor temps through the computer to get actual running data? I'm sure internal temps are higher.