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Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

Thank you for answers. I will get a speed controller by the end of the week and then I will do tests again. I suppose that the rpm is the key.
Regarding the construction, the motor is shinko 24 V but I got no info about it even if I tried hard on the net. The current is 550 mA, but I am running it at 18 V as I had no 24 V power supply available. I must build one next weekend. The heater is on the coupler between nipple and brass cap. Unfortunately here I did not find a brass cap as it is in the pdf, and this one has an end wall, where the 1.75 hole is through, of 4 mm only. This could be a problem, too. The tip of the auger is almost in contact with the inner wall of the brass cap, very thin space just not to grind the wall. I cut the tip of the auger and now is flat parallel with the inner wall of the brass cap. If somebody has any further advises it will be highly appreciated.

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Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

Look for a solid brass plug and a coupler that has a flat surface at McMaster if you are in the US. I haven't found either of those in a hardware store.  Also use a #52 bit to drill the hole which is about 1.6mm.  The plastic will swell as it exits so you want a smaller hole than the filament diameter.

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Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

IanJohnson wrote:

I got syncing between extruder and puller to work pretty well with a laser (stolen from a laser level) and two photo resistors.  When then filament shadow passes the upper sensor the motor shuts off.  When it hits the lower sensor the motor turns on again.  I was getting filament that ranged from 1.80mm to 1.83, with a couple of bumps up to 1.85.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YpmDGL4AoE

Congrats!  Is this running the SABIC MG94-NA1000? what temp?  Filament looks much clearer than the natural OSP.  What kind of results do you get with the OSP? 

I am still struggling with occasional large min and max diameter variations.  I'll see 5 ft of great stuff where the caliper reading hardly changes and then bang.  Part of the magic in your set up might be that there are no guides.  I did a run OSP 170C where I removed the copper guide, but left the kapton in place on the edge so there was only one "guide" that just touched the filament.  40" span to the capstan with 14" sag. Manually regulated the sag with the power supply. Only a slight filament deflection over the edge.  Straightest filament I have ever seen.  I'll try a run with a direct feed from the nozzel to the capstan and then try your verticle drop.

Love the laser level idea.  What brand/part number for the emitter?  We were just messing around last night shining a laser pointer into a piece of clear round acrylic.  Refraction and internal reflections are splitting the laser into a line, but there are dark areas in the projection that rotate with the rod.  Found a stamp roll dispenser that produced a nice line.

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Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

Line laser:

http://www.adafruit.com/products/1057

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Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

Zoltan - We're running about 2 RPM no load 12V.  260mA @ 200C, maybe 350mA @ 170C.  I agree with Ian that the length of the die might need to be longer to alllow time for the stresses in the molten plastic to resolve before being extruded.  Wish I understood the expansion effect better.

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@Ian - I have seen in the picture that you have on your extruder a different setup, as the nozzle hole is 90 degrees to the axis of the extruder. Also, I noticed a screw in the brass cap. What is the role of this screw, and could you, please, explain your setup. I would really appreciate a draft drawing - hand drawing of your brass cap if possible.

Thank you.

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Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

It's a cap I had previously drilled and tapped at 1/4" for experimenting with a PEEK/PTFE nozzle.  I drilled into the flat of the hex near the back edge until it met that hole, and then screwed in a bolt to plug the front opening.  There is no way I could drill 1.6mm through the middle, then meet it with another 1.6mm from the side.  A large hole all of the way through the middle is easier to meet, and since it is threaded I can close it off with a bolt threaded in just short of the small hole.  An advantage of this method is you can have another bolt (brass) drilled through the middle at 1.6mm.  If you want to extrude out the front, just thread that bolt into the plug far enough to block the downward hole.

I'm getting a little more die swell than I want because the land is shorter going out the side.  It would be better to have a smaller hole through the center.  Ideal would be a funnel shape that goes down to 1.6 just before making the turn, but that would require a CNC rather than a drill press.

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Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

Hi Ian,

I'm thinking of attempting a similar set up,

How are you controlling the light gates and motor?

I was thinking of just using a light gate and a relay, but clearly as you have two gates and a motor delay you must have a slightly more complex set up!

Any pointers appreciated!

Cheers,

Rob

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I'm  running it with an Arduino UNO.   I'll post code and a diagram later when I get a chance.

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Ah I thought you might be,

If you're happy to post the details that'd be grand!

Thanks,

Rob

1,286 (edited by elmoret 2013-04-09 16:02:45)

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

Found some cool blog posts:

http://haveblue.org/?p=841 (walkthrough of filament production)

http://haveblue.org/?p=811 (Discussion of MG94 vs/ Stratasys filament)

I've been in talks with Sabic. It seems MG94 is around $5/lb, which is really strange since carlsievering on ebay told me he'd sell me 500lbs for $500+shipping. I wonder if carl's supply is surplus. I've sent him a message about it. It seems like MG94 is the liquid gold of resins, which explains why I was able to print at 150mm/s+ with it.

1,287 (edited by DePartedPrinter 2013-04-09 15:37:26)

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

elmoret wrote:

Found some cool blog posts:

http://haveblue.org/?p=841 (walkthrough of filament production)

http://haveblue.org/?p=811 (Discussion of MG94 vs/ Stratasys filament)

I've been in talks with Sabic. It seems MG94 is around $5/lb, which is really strange since carlsievering on ebay told me he'd sell me 500lbs for $500+shipping. I wonder if car's supply is surplus. I've sent him a message about it. It seems like MG94 is the liquid gold of resins, which explains why I was able to print at 150mm/s+ with it.


50ft/min...so I'm gonna need a a lot of filastruders if I want to go into mass production...

SD2 with E3D, SD Press, Form 1+
Filastruder
NYLON (taulman): http://www.soliforum.com/topic/466/nylon/

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Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

I think everyone selling pellets on Ebay are likely liquidators.  The guy with the clear pellets seems to have bought a shipping container that had a pallet of 25kg bags in it.

Projects like the Filastruder are always met by comments like "It's hard for the pros to get it right, so a home extruder isn't going to make good enough filament".  I think it is hard to make quality filament to tolerance at 50ft/min.  At 1ft/min there is plenty of time for air and steam to bubble out the back before it gets into the filament, and plenty of time to cool coming out of the die.  Not drawing it down with a puller reduces the complexity, and is one less variable to dial in. 

I would love to have a rotary encoder of some kind between the puller and spool, maybe there would be a way to combine it with the caliper.  The bottom fixed roller could be the encoder and count the filament, and the spring-loaded top roller would move the caliper.

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IanJohnson wrote:

I think everyone selling pellets on Ebay are likely liquidators.  The guy with the clear pellets seems to have bought a shipping container that had a pallet of 25kg bags in it.

Right you are. Carl seems to have around 750lbs left. I will probably end up buying him out.

Those prices direct from Sabic include delivery, so they aren't as outrageous as I thought.

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Can somebody help me and indicate from where to buy a brass cap as it is used for filastruder or maybe is there somebody who has one available to sell to me? I am from Romania and herein are just caps with 3-4 mm wall no plain cap. The same is with flanges. I made from some big washer into which I drilled the four holes for screws.

Thank you in advance.

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Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

zoltan wrote:

Can somebody help me and indicate from where to buy a brass cap as it is used for filastruder or maybe is there somebody who has one available to sell to me? I am from Romania and herein are just caps with 3-4 mm wall no plain cap. The same is with flanges. I made from some big washer into which I drilled the four holes for screws.

Thank you in advance.

I can, though shipping might be pricey. It is hard for us from the US to help you find local suppliers, though. smile

1,292 (edited by DePartedPrinter 2013-04-09 20:26:31)

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

elmoret wrote:

Right you are. Carl seems to have around 750lbs left. I will probably end up buying him out.


save some for the rest of us...

I ordered 15lbs from carl before you buy out his supply...

SD2 with E3D, SD Press, Form 1+
Filastruder
NYLON (taulman): http://www.soliforum.com/topic/466/nylon/

1,293 (edited by justnick 2013-04-09 21:03:10)

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

Make that 750-15-15.  Got my order in yesterday.

Trying to come up with a set up that would only have one drive motor on the take up reel and no capstan to get costs down.  Thinking something similar to the dc gearbox motor I used on the capstan with PWM, but much lower RPM to drive the reel.  There would have to be a friction brake on the filament to keep tension on the reel.  Maybe sandwich the filament between some small blocks of PTFE?  Not sure a fancy encoder on the caliper idler would be necessary, it would be a good idea to know if filament is moving and to get a rough count of length, so maybe a one pulse per rev optical would work.  I am also thinking of a tosduino for $11.50 as the controller interfaced into the digital calipers as a safety check/log.  And of course use something similar to Ian's laser optical droop sensor. 

Started playing with the HF digital caliper serial interface last night and put together a level shifter with junk box parts.  The Chinese calipers use a binary format.  Lots of info on the web.  http://www.shumatech.com/support/chinese_scales.htm  Problem is the metal body is connected to the + side of the 1.5V battery, so if you ground the "-" side of the battery to your Arduino, the metal body is now at 1.5V and is "hot".  I chose to ground the body and to capacitively couple the clock and data outputs to the level shifter.  At some point in the future, I'll add a charge pump to replace the negative battery supply.  If running the metal body hot doesn't bother you, there are some minimalist solutions on the web that power the calipers from a +1.8V ground referneced supply and drive a 3.3V supply Arduino directly (might be  a little squeaky on noise margin).  Rise and fall times out of the level shifters were good, but haven't connected it to the cap load of the Arduino yet.  If you pull the Data output line up to GND, the calipers cycle thru different min/max secret modes.  Once it is in the special mode, you can use the zero button to toggle the data rate from 300msec to 22msec.  Hitting the On/Off button just turns on/off the display and has no effect on the serial port output.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/51501423/HF%20Level%20Shifter.JPG

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Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

Just saw this over on thingiverse:

Filament Width Sensor:
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:70775

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Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

nickythegreek wrote:

Just saw this over on thingiverse:

Filament Width Sensor:
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:70775

I'm hoping he comes up with some code that I can figure out how to copy and paste into the arduino.


Using an encoder to count the length of filament spooled is a bit complicated.  It occurred to me that it would be simpler to just leave the winder on a postal scale with an AC adapter and watch the weight increase..  You can get one of those from Amazon for about $25.

I can try out using only the spool motor with a brake by taking the motor off the puller.  The tension on the idler bearing is adjustable, so I can see what effect that has.  Maybe the caliper roller can double as the brake.  I have a couple of cheap plastic calipers, and noticed that the movement is much smoother than the metal Harbor Freight caliper.   You don't have the advantage of a serial output but it's fine for seeing if you have the diameter you want.  It would be cool to log the diameter and get a graph after the spool is done to see if there were any problems.

1,296 (edited by justnick 2013-04-09 21:49:28)

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

nickythegreek wrote:

Just saw this over on thingiverse:

Filament Width Sensor:
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:70775

yup.  Good find.  YSB also mentioned it in post 1265.  Plan to play with some of the sensors, but they are only 400 dpi.  Gets interesting with 2.5x optics or tipping them on an angle.  If he was having shadow issues, I am surprised he did not move the LED source farther away.  Not sure what interference patterns would get generated from the edges of the filament with a laser.

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So on the colorant front. I have gotten quotes for ABS Blue, Red, Yellow, and Glow in the dark. I know the primary colors will be easy to get but the glow in the dark may take longer than the rest. I also got a quote for PLA colorant, Red, Blue, Yellow and Black. My goal is to have a much better selection once the KS ends. Thank you guys for being patient!

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OSPrinting wrote:

So on the colorant front. I have gotten quotes for ABS Blue, Red, Yellow, and Glow in the dark. I know the primary colors will be easy to get but the glow in the dark may take longer than the rest. I also got a quote for PLA colorant, Red, Blue, Yellow and Black. My goal is to have a much better selection once the KS ends. Thank you guys for being patient!


let us know when we can begin testing...

SD2 with E3D, SD Press, Form 1+
Filastruder
NYLON (taulman): http://www.soliforum.com/topic/466/nylon/

1,299 (edited by REdington 2013-04-09 23:09:35)

Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

IanJohnson wrote:

I'm hoping he comes up with some code that I can figure out how to copy and paste into the arduino.


Using an encoder to count the length of filament spooled is a bit complicated.  It occurred to me that it would be simpler to just leave the winder on a postal scale with an AC adapter and watch the weight increase..  You can get one of those from Amazon for about $25.

I can try out using only the spool motor with a brake by taking the motor off the puller.  The tension on the idler bearing is adjustable, so I can see what effect that has.  Maybe the caliper roller can double as the brake.  I have a couple of cheap plastic calipers, and noticed that the movement is much smoother than the metal Harbor Freight caliper.   You don't have the advantage of a serial output but it's fine for seeing if you have the diameter you want.  It would be cool to log the diameter and get a graph after the spool is done to see if there were any problems.

Ian

Why not put a small stallable motor on the reel?? The ones I have played with start turning at about 1.5 volts and are good to 14 volts. The torque is adjusted with voltage.  I think the real problem with one, would be the torque would change as the spool got larger.

Rodney

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Re: Filament Extruder - Convert pellets to filament

REdington wrote:
IanJohnson wrote:

I'm hoping he comes up with some code that I can figure out how to copy and paste into the arduino.


Using an encoder to count the length of filament spooled is a bit complicated.  It occurred to me that it would be simpler to just leave the winder on a postal scale with an AC adapter and watch the weight increase..  You can get one of those from Amazon for about $25.

I can try out using only the spool motor with a brake by taking the motor off the puller.  The tension on the idler bearing is adjustable, so I can see what effect that has.  Maybe the caliper roller can double as the brake.  I have a couple of cheap plastic calipers, and noticed that the movement is much smoother than the metal Harbor Freight caliper.   You don't have the advantage of a serial output but it's fine for seeing if you have the diameter you want.  It would be cool to log the diameter and get a graph after the spool is done to see if there were any problems.

Ian

Why not put a small stallable motor on the reel?? The ones I have played with start turning at about 1.5 volts and are good to 14 volts. The torque is adjusted with voltage.  I think the real problem with one, would be the torque would change as the spool got larger.

Rodney

You could, but then you are fighting against the capstan and now you have two motors.    I think the goals are to keep controlled droop with laser/photo sensors, and have takeup tension on the reel.  Maybe that does require two motors, but if we could do it with one, it might be cheaper.   A rubber wheel capstan on ABS does not have anywhere near the gripping power of knurled or hobbed bolt (which would start to ding up the surface finish).  So you could start to have issues if the take up reel pulled too hard.  But even controlling the take up reel torque by monitoring the PWM current is not a bad way to go.

-Nick