1 (edited by jerseydevil 2013-03-08 12:12:26)

Topic: Extruder gear slipping

I got this printer used and the hot end is clearly NOT jammed and I have never extruded with the hot end cold.
I noticed from the very beginning that telling the software to extrude 5mm of filament never got 5mm of filament with the head hot.
I also noticed that no matter how I adjusted the calibration the only way to extrude anything was to push the filament myself.

I got a good hard look at this today from a different angle and clearly the drive 'gear' for the filament is slipping against the stepper shaft.
There's not a lot of room in that extruder acrylic to tighten that screw while assembled.
I am not sure what size the set screw is and the only way I can think to find out like this is to shorten my hex keys to fit in the housing opening.
I am also not sure if there is supposed to be a flat for that screw to engage but under the circumstances it would seem logical.
I suppose I could also put some LockTite on the stepper shaft but that requires some serious disassembly and it might be a bad idea.

Can someone kindly tell me:
1. Is there a flat in the extruder stepper shaft?
2. What size hex key for the set screw holding the 'gear' on the extruder stepper?
3. What is the recommended way to correct this situation?
4. Are there mechanical or assembly drawings somewhere of the extruder I can reference?
5. What size hex key for the rest of the screws on the face of the extruder?

Sorry but I looked for about 2 hours and having found merely a single mention of the issue and no further discussion in this forum this is perhaps my best recourse before I start messing around more seriously.  I do see other people saying that if you tighten the compression screw on the opposing arm too much the stepper will slip.  There is definitely no such happy medium here.  Anything that is sufficient to push the filament slips the 'gear' and anything not sufficient to do that won't extrude a thing.  The knurled 'gear' surface is entirely clean so that's not the issue.

Danger: 'Addams Family' sense of humor.

2

Re: Extruder gear slipping

1. I've taken mine completely off. There is no flat spot on the extruder motor from what I can tell.
2. The Hex key is 1.5mm. Some Hex keys have a ball on the end that can be used to reach the head at an angle. I have one of these to tighten/loosen it without removing the acrylics.
3. I would recommend loosening the screw a little and sliding the collar back and forth a little. If the screw was loose, the collar may need to be repositioned. It should be fairly flush with the acrylics. Then retighten the screw.
4. I am not sure if or where the assembly drawings are located.
5. I believe the rest of the screw heads on the acrylics are 2.5mm.

SD2
E3D V6
MK5 V6

3

Re: Extruder gear slipping

Like Gordym says it has no flat spot, this would be a great thing for the folks at SD to change smile or if you are adventurous with a dremel tool and small grinding wheel.....
The easiest way to get better access to the setscrew is to remove the thumbscrew/nut on the filament tensioner and that can hinge out of the way for good access to the right side of the extruder drive roller.

4

Re: Extruder gear slipping

I am battling with the y axis belts and same issue, The pulleys have no set screw and the collars do not capture the pulley on both sides and the shaft is not keyed.  So I agree be nice upgrade to have a key pulley into the shaft with about 8mm long key then you can still use set screw in the pully to align it left to right in the key

you would then eliminate all of the set collars. This might actually be cheaper or same price as the current setup

SD2 owner- Surestepr, filament holder,QUBD servo and heaters, glass bed
Print for fun and for parts for my sports cars
current car is 88 IROC

5 (edited by jerseydevil 2013-03-08 20:09:20)

Re: Extruder gear slipping

ronsii wrote:

Like Gordym says it has no flat spot, this would be a great thing for the folks at SD to change smile or if you are adventurous with a dremel tool and small grinding wheel.....
The easiest way to get better access to the setscrew is to remove the thumbscrew/nut on the filament tensioner and that can hinge out of the way for good access to the right side of the extruder drive roller.

I thought the same thing but the acrylic outer layer around that 'gear' of my print head is closed on the side where that assembly pivots.  I could probably drill/melt a hole in there or grind away the back of that side of the extruder but before I do that I found some hex keys with the balls on the end that I will give a shot.

Danger: 'Addams Family' sense of humor.

6

Re: Extruder gear slipping

Oh Shoot... your right(I just checked), sorry about that I've had mine swung down before and just assumed the setscrew was accessible... but for the looks of it if you have a ballend hex key it should fit on the left side.. in at an angle, it's that or rip the whole thing apart... of course then you could grind a flat on there and never have this problem again smile

7 (edited by jerseydevil 2013-03-09 17:18:39)

Re: Extruder gear slipping

I removed the 'gear' today and the shaft of the extruder stepper clearly has some wear on it.  The hex set screw does not appear to be fully tapped through the 'gear' either that or this is a conical taper.  As a result it leaves very little 'bite' for the screw into the shaft.  Though that little bit is probably just enough once it starts to slip there's a risk of scoring the shaft and I can feel some scoring on the stepper shaft (very little but it's there).

I removed the 3 (it looks like there should have been 4) metric 2.5mm screws that held the extruder stepper to the extruder assembly and having lifted some stray yellow Kapton tape I've slipped the stepper out the back of the extruder assembly and disconnected a few wires.  Having now reviewed this it appears that from slipping either the 'gear' moved forward so it was 1/8" from the from the extruder acrylic and not flush as described above or it was moved by the previous owner probably because it was slipping (LOL...a little tinkering require eh?).  I see from looking down the lowered bearing compression arm (tension arm as it has also been called) that with the 'gear' basically flush to the front of the extruder acrylic the knurled surface is lined up with the center of the bearing surface (probably why I noted that bearing slipping).  With the stepper now out of the extruder but still connected to the machine assembly (I disconnected the stepper from the PCB so it can't run as a generator) I am going to cover the machine with some wood or cardboard and use a rotary tool to clean up the shaft.  I used a 1.5mm hex key to work the set screw in and out of the 'gear' a few times till it further intrudes on the hollow in the 'gear' (I am reluctant to try to tap this hole and the set screw is plenty durable to work the threads a little deeper).  I can honestly say that while you can probably tweak the set screw with the ball ended hex key while the motor is installed in the extruder with an unflatted shaft I don't see how you can really expect to exert the torque required to dig the set screw into the shaft as this would require to be useful (you don't want it to score around the shaft just the spot where it was tighted because with no flat that's all you can do).

Danger: 'Addams Family' sense of humor.

8

Re: Extruder gear slipping

I see you made some progress smile Well I had a break between making metal parts this morning so I figured I would rip into this...just for fun smile I know if it isn't broke don't fix it wink.... Anyway I got the extruder apart and the setscrew out and drive wheel off now it is just waiting for me to get back to it.

       I noticed my setscrew had some sort of threadlocker on it probably cyanoacrylate which bonded very well to the screw... so well in fact it make it hard to screw it further in the drive wheel - like yours - however once the threads were cleaned I had no problem threading it all the way into the inner bore. I will be adding a flat area to the stepper as long as it is apart as a lot of people I know in robotics do this because it makes for a more secure connection in high load situations, even though this isn't a high load area it does have a high heat/cool cycle and that makes things expand and contract which in time could loosen things a bit.

9 (edited by jerseydevil 2013-03-09 19:30:27)

Re: Extruder gear slipping

I cut down a card board box into a tray.  Took my rotary tool with a wire brush.  Put on some safety glasses (spinning little bits of wire flying around near your face >no Darwin Awards to be earned here< use safety glasses).  Cleaned up the shaft of the extruder stepper.  Then I changed out for a small grinding wheel about 1/2" x 1/2".  I went parallel to the stepper shaft at first to establish a line (lightly).  Then I went perpendicular to the shaft and ground a flat about as wide as the diameter of the set screw shaft.  Since the grinding wheel has a diameter I can't go perpendicular up to the face of the motor so it tapers back up but that should not matter.  I put the wire wheel back in and cleaned up the shaft and the flat.  I then hit that flat with some 400 grit sand paper parallel to the axis.  I then reduced down to 220 grit.  Then back to the wire wheel for the entire shaft.  I put on the gear and screwed in the set screw enough I could be sure that the set screw engaged the edges of the flat.  Then I tightened it up.  I need to finish installing it.  Then I'll post some pictures.

And now I laugh my butt off because I just noticed as I resinstalled the stepper motor that the 'missing' screw someone took out and put in the wrong hole long before me.  More over the nuts that hold the extruder on are no where to be found (they were never there).  Nothing like a tire with no lug nuts.  I guess the extruder stayed on merely from the cable tension before.  Off to go find me some metric hardware.

Danger: 'Addams Family' sense of humor.

10

Re: Extruder gear slipping

LOL, seem like your on a roll, my greatest weakness when I'm working on things is not taking pictures... well that and using zip ties to replace missing screws and such wink (learned that from r/c aircraft)

11 (edited by jerseydevil 2013-03-10 14:59:54)

Re: Extruder gear slipping

A local hardware store to the rescue.  Lowes has M3 pan head holts but not cap screws and no nuts or washers of any type (makes perfect sense!).  Home Depot was a strike out.  I went down to the local hardware store and asked the counter and they had not just the nuts, but all sorts of washers which fixed this right up.

I left the 2 bolts that hold the extruder to the carraige loose and put in the 4 bolts that hold the stepper motor assembly to the extruder.  I left those 2 bolts loose as the acrylic holes for the stepper are very close and I wanted some wiggle room.  I put in 2 bolts in the 2 opposing corners but did not tighten them.  Then the other 2 bolts.  Then I cross pattern tightened.  When that was done I tighted up the 2 bolts that hold the assemlby to the carraige.  The 'gear' is stickng out about the height of a piece of paper from the extruder which has more to do with me putting it on the shaft when the extruder acrylic plates were not compressed by all the screws than anything else.  I was able to completely tighten the compression screw (tensioner) screw without the 'gear' slipping on the stepper shaft and no filament.

I can extrude with the compression screw all the way tightened with complete positive traction.  That is entirely unnecessary but just a test to see if this works as well as I expected it would.  In fact, it might be working almost too well.  Now I get way more than 1mm of output material when I extrude 1mm so now I must tweak settings.

I had raised the extruder temperature to 205 degrees previously because originally with a slipping extruder stepper I had to almost reduce the ABS to liquid to get anything out (yes I know that is not recommended but I have an IR heat gun and frequently turn off the hot end).  Now I have more than adequate force.  So I reduced the temperature to 200.  I also raised the bed temperature to 95.  I had the compression arm (tensioner) set to about 1/8" of the screw showing...which is very little pressure on the filament).  I just printed a 'companion cube' I sliced up from Thingiverse.  It's a bit messed up but I suspect the issue is more the way it was sliced than the printer.  All in all this worked out great.  I clearly got a nice even flow ouf the extruder.  Pictures will follow later.

Danger: 'Addams Family' sense of humor.

12

Re: Extruder gear slipping

jerseydevil wrote:

A local hardware store to the rescue.  Lowes has M3 pan head holts but not cap screws and no nuts or washers of any type (makes perfect sense!).  Home Depot was a strike out.  I went down to the local hardware store and asked the counter and they had not just the nuts, but all sorts of washers which fixed this right up.

I left the 2 bolts that hold the extruder to the carraige loose and put in the 4 bolts that hold the stepper motor assembly to the extruder.  I left those 2 bolts loose as the acrylic holes for the stepper are very close and I wanted some wiggle room.  I put in 2 bolts in the 2 opposing corners but did not tighten them.  Then the other 2 bolts.  Then I cross pattern tightened.  When that was done I tighted up the 2 bolts that hold the assemlby to the carraige.  The 'gear' is stickng out about the height of a piece of paper from the extruder which has more to do with me putting it on the shaft when the extruder acrylic plates were not compressed by all the screws than anything else.  I was able to completely tighten the compression screw (tensioner) screw without the 'gear' slipping on the stepper shaft and no filament.

I can extrude with the compression screw all the way tightened with complete positive traction.  That is entirely unnecessary but just a test to see if this works as well as I expected it would.  In fact, it might be working almost too well.  Now I get way more than 1mm of output material when I extrude 1mm so now I must tweak settings.

I had raised the extruder temperature to 205 degrees previously because originally with a slipping extruder stepper I had to almost reduce the ABS to liquid to get anything out (yes I know that is not recommended but I have an IR heat gun and frequently turn off the hot end).  Now I have more than adequate force.  So I reduced the temperature to 200.  I also raised the bed temperature to 95.  I had the compression arm (tensioner) set to about 1/8" of the screw showing...which is very little pressure on the filament).  I just printed a 'companion cube' I sliced up from Thingiverse.  It's a bit messed up but I suspect the issue is more the way it was sliced than the printer.  All in all this worked out great.  I clearly got a nice even flow ouf the extruder.  Pictures will follow later.

You got this fixed?

Former Solidoodle employee, no longer associated with the company.

13

Re: Extruder gear slipping

jerseydevil wrote:

A local hardware store to the rescue.  Lowes has M3 pan head holts but not cap screws and no nuts or washers of any type (makes perfect sense!).  Home Depot was a strike out.  I went down to the local hardware store and asked the counter and they had not just the nuts, but all sorts of washers which fixed this right up.

I left the 2 bolts that hold the extruder to the carraige loose and put in the 4 bolts that hold the stepper motor assembly to the extruder.  I left those 2 bolts loose as the acrylic holes for the stepper are very close and I wanted some wiggle room.  I put in 2 bolts in the 2 opposing corners but did not tighten them.  Then the other 2 bolts.  Then I cross pattern tightened.  When that was done I tighted up the 2 bolts that hold the assemlby to the carraige.  The 'gear' is stickng out about the height of a piece of paper from the extruder which has more to do with me putting it on the shaft when the extruder acrylic plates were not compressed by all the screws than anything else.  I was able to completely tighten the compression screw (tensioner) screw without the 'gear' slipping on the stepper shaft and no filament.

I can extrude with the compression screw all the way tightened with complete positive traction.  That is entirely unnecessary but just a test to see if this works as well as I expected it would.  In fact, it might be working almost too well.  Now I get way more than 1mm of output material when I extrude 1mm so now I must tweak settings.

I had raised the extruder temperature to 205 degrees previously because originally with a slipping extruder stepper I had to almost reduce the ABS to liquid to get anything out (yes I know that is not recommended but I have an IR heat gun and frequently turn off the hot end).  Now I have more than adequate force.  So I reduced the temperature to 200.  I also raised the bed temperature to 95.  I had the compression arm (tensioner) set to about 1/8" of the screw showing...which is very little pressure on the filament).  I just printed a 'companion cube' I sliced up from Thingiverse.  It's a bit messed up but I suspect the issue is more the way it was sliced than the printer.  All in all this worked out great.  I clearly got a nice even flow ouf the extruder.  Pictures will follow later.

You got this fixed?

Former Solidoodle employee, no longer associated with the company.

14 (edited by jerseydevil 2013-03-10 19:32:07)

Re: Extruder gear slipping

solidoodlesupport wrote:

You got this fixed?

Yes I consider that issue resolved.  I still have much to tinker with to improve the quality of the prints but I get good positive traction now on the filament.

Here are pictures of my first print...

Please note that the one side of the cube that faced the bed looks like spagetti because large parts of it were unsupported by structural material (obviously not a great idea and more to do with the model than the printer or software).

Post's attachments

Companion Cube 1 of 3.jpg
Companion Cube 1 of 3.jpg 140.14 kb, 2 downloads since 2013-03-10 

Companion Cube 2 of 3.jpg
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Companion Cube 3 of 3.jpg
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Danger: 'Addams Family' sense of humor.

15

Re: Extruder gear slipping

Here are some pictures of my work.  Sorry some of the close-up are a little blurry.

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Extruder stepper shaft wear.jpg
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Extruder stepper with flat.jpg 168.34 kb, file has never been downloaded. 

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16

Re: Extruder gear slipping

Jersey i had the same problem with mine

17

Re: Extruder gear slipping

jerseydevil wrote:

... it appears that from slipping either the 'gear' moved forward so it was 1/8" from the from the extruder acrylic and not flush as described above or it was moved by the previous owner probably because it was slipping (LOL...a little tinkering require eh?).  I see from looking down the lowered bearing compression arm (tension arm as it has also been called) that with the 'gear' basically flush to the front of the extruder acrylic the knurled surface is lined up with the center of the bearing surface (probably why I noted that bearing slipping).

After some digging, this finally addressed my problem; that the knurled extruder gear was sticking out of the acrylic jigsaw by at least 1/16 inch. I had noticed this because my extruder was "jumping" occasionally, and a fine powder was building up on only one side of the filament drive gear. Evidently, the one side where the powder was building up, the far side of the gear, was the only part making contact with the filament.

Since the collar was sticking out, I easily accessed the set screw, but I was a bit confounded when I still couldn't move the collar. I unscrewed the four screws holding the stepper motor in place (leaving the jigsaw on the carriage). From jerseydevil's post, I assessed that there was little harm in getting out my vicegrips and trying to make it budge back down the shaft, since it seems like their collar had the opposite problem - too loose. Turns out it was just a snug fit, but through a lot of printing the collar had slipped down the shaft. I have replaced the setscrew and the stepper motor is re-attached to the carriage. Here's to hoping it prints well.