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Topic: Hot end failure SD3 and PID settings

Well less then 2 weeks of printing my heater has failed.  12.6v on the connector and open circuit. 

Also I tried to tune the PID loops and they are broken.  The PID algorithm is taken strait out of text book and needs some other things to happen(like not having the I term wind up in the opposite direction).  To fix the "I" term I needs to be limited at 0 and not allowed to go negative and wind up in the negative.  This makes for massive undershoot that no amount of tuning will fix. 

SO far this "PID" loop is more Bang-Bang control then anything.  When trying to tune the loop I also notice the stock settings where somewhere in the 20's when the system really seams to respond to values 0.00-1.00(for PID term gains).

Not to happy so far.  Horrible PID system with horrible settings and a hot end that fails after 2 weeks of use.

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Re: Hot end failure SD3 and PID settings

Well the PID is courtesy of 3rd party open source software, not Solidoodle.

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Re: Hot end failure SD3 and PID settings

Would not be so pissed if I did not wait 8 weeks for something that breaks in 2.  I understand the firmware is open source, but should you not check it first before you put it into a product?

I will at some point go digging through the code and fix the PID loop, but I also see I am not the only one with a hot end failure on the SD3.

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Re: Hot end failure SD3 and PID settings

My PID maintains within 0.5 deg C while printing.

How are you ascertaining the I term's contribution?

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Re: Hot end failure SD3 and PID settings

looks like I have more PID tuning to do because mine is not maintaining that level of accuracy.  Do you heat your extruder up to temp for a few minutes before autotuning?

6 (edited by teslatech 2013-02-24 19:58:46)

Re: Hot end failure SD3 and PID settings

I watched the graphs.

When the temp goes above set-point you can tell the I is winding up in the negative direction by watching it just as it falls past the set-point(doing this with D at zero).  In a normal thermal PID system you clamp the "I" at a min of 0 so it cannot windup backwards.

On a normal PI thermal system AS SOON as you drop below set-point P should be calling for power, but it does not.  It waits till the "I" unwinds and then slams the system with 100% power.  This ends up being a 10 C drop, until it calls for power.  If I was clamped at 0 like  it should, then even if you drop 1 deg below set-point it should be calling for at lease a small percentage of power.

ADDED:
Autotune are for static systems.  These printers are both static and dynamic systems.  It really needs a FeedForward+PID system.

Since we know how much plastic we are putting though we can use that to call power ahead of time before the system sees a drop it temp.

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Re: Hot end failure SD3 and PID settings

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller#Feed-forward

8 (edited by elmoret 2013-02-24 21:36:23)

Re: Hot end failure SD3 and PID settings

I'm pretty sure the Marlin firmware constrains the I term contribution to [0, var], at least lawsy's fork. Not sure what ends up on the SD by default.

From temperature.cpp:

    temp_iState_min[e] = 0.0;

FF control is in my opinion an unnecessary complication for this plant. Properly tuned PID with a normally functioning heater and thermistor holds temps within a degree or two for everyone I know of with a solidoodle.

By the way, watching the graphs isn't a reliable way of figuring out each term's contribution. You should be able to turn on debugging, which will echo actual temp, each term's contribution, and desired heater power to the log window.

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Re: Hot end failure SD3 and PID settings

nickythegreek wrote:

looks like I have more PID tuning to do because mine is not maintaining that level of accuracy.  Do you heat your extruder up to temp for a few minutes before autotuning?


I did, yes.

How close you can hold depends on a number of factors, like the thermal resistance between the resistor and the heater block, the thermal resistance between the thermistor and heaterblock, how well insulated the thermistor is, etc. You should be able to hold +/-2C 95% of the time, though.

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Re: Hot end failure SD3 and PID settings

I will look more into once I get the hot end fixed.  I had turned on logs, but the get recycled every start of the host program and did not save it before it got erased. 

Anyone know the part number of the power resistor used in the hot end.  I would like to just fix it myself if I can. 


I am looking at the code right now.

I also see that PID loop only calculates if the error is +/-10.  If the error is +/-10 then it is either full on or full off.  This could be why I had seen Bang-Bang behavior.  So, not a full PID system. PID only when your in that +/-10C window.  Outside of that range it never calculates P, I or D(or if you swing outside of that it freezes the PID terms). 

I do see the limit for the I term in there, but now I see it is not full PID I get what I was seeing.  Still curious why I saw no power being put out when I the temp just dropped below setpoint(P should have been calling for power). 

Also since the resistor failed I may have been fighting that in the tune.

11 (edited by elmoret 2013-02-24 23:34:25)

Re: Hot end failure SD3 and PID settings

I'm pretty sure those graphs have considerable smoothing/delays. Again, I wouldn't trust then for inferring very much.

No one knows the part number, Solidoodle seems to consider it to be IP. Best bet is to find the ID of the hole in the heater block, and match a 6 ohm resistor with an appropriate size OD to fit in the block. You want a slight interference fit, and preheat the block before installing the new power resistor. Not sure if SD does this at the factory, which could contribute to them going bad - high thermal resistance resulting in resistor overtemp.

Keep in mind that Lawsy fork may not be what they're flashing currently.

Side note - do you work at Tesla?

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Re: Hot end failure SD3 and PID settings

I have a company called TeslaTech, LLC, but I don't work for Tesla Motors.  My day in day out job is working for Trenchless Technology Center designing and integrating Ultra-Wide band ground penetrating radar systems.

My friend gave me the nick name tesla when I built a tesla coil in my parents garage at 15 years old and convinced my parents it was safe.

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Re: Hot end failure SD3 and PID settings

on a side note does anyoen know whatsize nuts attach the hot end to the jigsaw? i need to take mine down to un clog the print head

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Re: Hot end failure SD3 and PID settings

Just as a note, I haven't changed any of the PID algorithm in the solidoodle2-marlin fork. I did, however, set the P,I and D values to the preset 'Makergear' hotend, as the original hot ends came from them.

Everyone should do a M303 S190 when they get their printer and enter the PID values into the EEPROM storage.

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Re: Hot end failure SD3 and PID settings

Proof of 0.5C control:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1786359/Screen%20Shot%202013-02-27%20at%203.40.22%20PM.png

16 (edited by newq 2013-02-27 21:08:40)

Re: Hot end failure SD3 and PID settings

The original heater resistor has part number ACS-5S-4R7-J and has 4.7 Ohm and 5 Watt.

A resistor that works as a replacement is AC03000006808JAC00 (6.8 Ohm, 3 Watt).

Edit: Here's a picture of the original and the replacement where you can see the part number: http://i.imgur.com/0URHujUh.jpg

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Re: Hot end failure SD3 and PID settings

I wonder if they use thermal paste on these at SD. The shape of that body is pretty concafe.

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Re: Hot end failure SD3 and PID settings

Still haven't been able to find stand alone brass barrels, anyone have a source?

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Re: Hot end failure SD3 and PID settings

I think they did use thermal paste or something that looked like it (on my SD2). The first time I removed the hot end to remove a clog I noticed that it doesn't really create a seal and the resistor can turn kind of freely in the hole, creating a gap. I guess that's what might have lead to it failing after some time. I tightly wrapped mine in aluminum foil because I read about it in a guide and because I didn't have thermal paste.

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Re: Hot end failure SD3 and PID settings

cmetzel wrote:

Still haven't been able to find stand alone brass barrels, anyone have a source?

In USA:

http://www.makergear.com/products/operators-pack

Confusing page but you can order just the brass barrel.

AUS:

https://www.bilbycnc.com.au/DisplayCat. … bCatID=101