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Topic: Im having some problems with .1mm printing

Ok so I love my SD and have been using it for about a month now. I was super happy when they released the .1mm profile. The only problem is that when ever I print with the new settings. My prints all have lines in them like the pictures below.  Printing at .3mm looks fine its just at the .1mm level when the lines stare to show.  So i did some research and thought it might be the z-wobble that every one is talking about. So I printed and installed this http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:34397 thinking that it would solve my problem. But no luck. Im all out of ideas. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e25/spectar1981us/2012-12-10_06-30-17_620.jpg

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e25/spectar1981us/2012-12-10_06-30-36_210.jpg

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Re: Im having some problems with .1mm printing

It's a little weird that you can see fill between some of the lines in the octocat.  It probably won't make a difference, but try it with Fill Every N Layers set to 1, make sure there is no Z Lift and turn off Generate Extra Perimeters.  Maybe try a tallish 1 wall hollow cylinder and see what happens just to make everything simple.

When the bed is in the lower half of the build area, does the top of the Z rod wobble around a lot?

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Re: Im having some problems with .1mm printing

IanJohnson wrote:

It's a little weird that you can see fill between some of the lines in the octocat.  It probably won't make a difference, but try it with Fill Every N Layers set to 1, make sure there is no Z Lift and turn off Generate Extra Perimeters.  Maybe try a tallish 1 wall hollow cylinder and see what happens just to make everything simple.

When the bed is in the lower half of the build area, does the top of the Z rod wobble around a lot?

Thanks for the advise. Ill try it tonight when I get home. I think I might be using slic3r wrong. I have been using the quick slice option. Would that make a difference ?

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Re: Im having some problems with .1mm printing

OK so i just tried to print the squirrel again with the same results. I have not found  a suitible stl file for a one wall test cylinder yet. The z rod does wobble. Could this be the cause of my problem?

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Re: Im having some problems with .1mm printing

i use this slic3r calibration stl alot. rectangle with a arc on one side.

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Re: Im having some problems with .1mm printing

Ok so I tried this fix here http://wiki.solidoodle.com/z-axis-anti-backlash. It seems to have helped alot.  As you can see from the pics below. The one on the left is from before I used the anti back lash thing and the one on the right is after. I still have bands in my .1mm prints but they are allot fainter.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e25/spectar1981us/2012-12-13_09-30-58_934.jpg

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e25/spectar1981us/2012-12-13_09-31-07_114.jpg

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e25/spectar1981us/2012-12-13_09-31-23_473.jpg

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Re: Im having some problems with .1mm printing

OK so I'm beginning to think that my problem is in the slic3r software. Below is a part that I made using the slic3r solidoodle .3mm profile. As you can see there is some pretty bad banding. But when I slice a part with skieinforge and use prontoface at the .3mm level, the parts come out smooth. Any ideas why this is happening? Later I will print out two identical parts . One using prontoface'/skeinforge and the other using repetier-host/slic3r and compare the results.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e25/spectar1981us/2012-12-18_09-51-38_237.jpg

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Re: Im having some problems with .1mm printing

Interesting.  I would love to see 2 prints of the same thing from each software package.  That might help in narrowing down some of the setting discrepancies.  The biggest thing that stands out to me would be the filament diameter and extrusion multiplier settings being different between the 2 setups.

9 (edited by Donitz 2012-12-18 17:29:37)

Re: Im having some problems with .1mm printing

I have the exact same problem and I'm still waiting for the nuts I ordered for the anti-backlash solution. But it doesn't look like it helped that much in your case.

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Re: Im having some problems with .1mm printing

OK so im still thinking I have a problem with my z axis. This is a print I did of a gift box for the advent tree thing. As you can see it was pretty smooth for the first 5mm or so then the banding started. I can also see the z axis motor moving up and down when I run the bed up. It looks as if the z axis motor is flexing the metal of the bottom of the case. Maybe I should contact support?

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e25/spectar1981us/2013-01-01_00-00-52_765.jpg

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Re: Im having some problems with .1mm printing

I would definitely contact support.  That is unacceptable z wobble.

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Re: Im having some problems with .1mm printing

Jonathan,
This is very much a z-axis lead screw issue.  What you are seeing for the 1st 5mm or so is the layers being squashed down by the print head which leads me to believe that you may have your bed temp or your extruder temp a little high.  The layers aren't cooling enough so they get kind of moved around when being printed over.  This is masking the banding.

As I've discovered after replacing the lead screw, there is inherent flex in the base of the motor for the z-axis.  There shouldn't be enough flex to knock over small objects, but there will be some.  The real to place to look is at the top of the lead screw.  If that thing is swaying like a stiff breeze is blowing, then you have a bend lead screw.

But your banding is similar to the way mine was.  If you've already calibrated the extruder, levelled the bed and tried all the backlash fixes, then contact support and request a new lead screw.  Provide explanation and images/video of the issue.  They should understand.

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Re: Im having some problems with .1mm printing

Well I have leveled the bed and tried 2 of the 3 z wobble fixes. How does one callibrate the extruder? As for my temps I am using the same settings that SD said to use when printing at the 1mm level using repeter host. 195 for the edtruder and 95 for the bed.

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Re: Im having some problems with .1mm printing

Watch Ian's awesome youtube video here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZGdMc2ebPo

I believe, you don't have to change the firmware, in repetier, you can go to settings->EEPROM Configuration or similar titled and change the values there.

Lead Programmer & Co-Owner of Camshaft Software - Creators of Automation - The Car Company Tycoon Game

15 (edited by Joey 2013-01-03 03:37:51)

Re: Im having some problems with .1mm printing

I have banding as well at low layer heights. My best prints are at .35 layer height. I can see my z screw wobbling when I run the bed up or down 30mm or so. took the bed off and adjusted the nut not much help. The larger layer height seems to dissipate the banding. However, we all want to print at a finer resolution of .1 or .15 so we should try to get the issue resolved or at least determine the cause. The consensus is that there is a bend or other inaccuracy in the lead screw. Let us know if u contact or hear from support about a replacement leadscrew. Anyone know where I can procure a more accurate threaded rod that will fit into the existing z motor?

There is a similar discussion going on solidoodle google groups. Search for threads on banding.

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Re: Im having some problems with .1mm printing

Well I heard back from them and they want a video of the z rod in action. So im going to send that and see what happens wink

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Re: Im having some problems with .1mm printing

Joey wrote:

I have banding as well at low layer heights.

If the problem is with the Z threaded rod, how would layer height change things?

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Re: Im having some problems with .1mm printing

I think if the wobble is small enough, at .3mm layers the XY position of the rod might be close enough to the position it was at for Layer 1 by the time it has moved far enough to begin Layer 2.  With .1mm layers, there are two more layers in between those points, one of which might be at a more extreme deviation which was passed by in the .3mm print.

Or if it is inconsistent step length, the layer height might divide into it in such a way that it only hits the good steps and skips over the inconsistent ones.

So if the wobble is slight, .3mm may not provide enough resolution to show its full extent, at least not with every revolution.  I saw that with mine, I never noticed any banding until I printed something at .1mm, and even then

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Re: Im having some problems with .1mm printing

Yep. That's it. I still have banding at .3 and .35 but it is less pronounced. That's why I say my best looking prints are at .35

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Re: Im having some problems with .1mm printing

Well I'm having some problems getting some videos posted. But as soon as I am able to send them to SD support, Ill post them here also. Without the z nut fix in place you can clearly see some wobble in the rod. It moves from right to left back and forth. I can hear a knocking as I advance the bed too. I think the bed is shifting as far as it can over to the left then to the right and the bushings or what ever are slamming into the vertical rods.

21 (edited by g00bd0g 2013-01-05 08:32:28)

Re: Im having some problems with .1mm printing

My z motor alignment was off and my Z threaded rod was bent pretty bad and I had banding just like that. I got so frustrated I took the z-nut off, shimmed the motor level, and then literally straightened the rod by eye. It is 99% better. Still rarely exhibits a smidge of noticeable banding.

The attached picture is an early attempt at my lighter cozy @.3mm and then my latest effort on my tuned machine @.2mm

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Re: Im having some problems with .1mm printing

Hey Jonathan thanks for posting this thread, because I am having the same problems (not as bad but it's close). I thought it was a firmware issue and was trying to resolve it that way. Turns out my motherboard is one of the bad ones and needs something extra to be updated, so I'm kinda stuck-like-chuck.

I'm wondering if that's the same issue with yours and the mobo is the actual problem. Have you tried updating the firmware?

I really don't understand how it could be the z-axis. I think the motors are over stepping and building entire layers wider than the last.

I would think if it's a wobble in the z the layers would look like:

----------------
  ----------------
----------------
  ----------------, and every layer would be equal but just not even, and not like:

-------------------
  ----------------
-------------------
  ----------------, where every layer is either building larger or getting squashed more by the extruder.

I think the effect on the first few layers are lessened due to the heated bed. The farther away it gets from the heat, the more pronounced the problem is.

I also thought it could be that the nozzle is loose and wobbly as it drags over the extruded plastic but I tightened the wooden plate and that also didn't help.

...or maybe it really is an issue that this guy brought up on my non-solution to z-axis wobble. (check the comments)
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:36177 (BTW, thanks Ian for clearing up what I couldn't.)

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Re: Im having some problems with .1mm printing

Here are some videos They are sideways lol sorry I had to hold my phone and run the pc at the same time witch made things very hard.

http://s36.beta.photobucket.com/user/sp … b.mp4.html

http://s36.beta.photobucket.com/user/sp … e.mp4.html

http://s36.beta.photobucket.com/user/sp … 5.mp4.html

http://s36.beta.photobucket.com/user/sp … a.mp4.html

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Re: Im having some problems with .1mm printing

Oh, yeah, she's bent.

Ship these off to SD HQ and let support see 'em.  Not quite as bad as my wobble, but it's not looking great either.

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Re: Im having some problems with .1mm printing

cckens wrote:

Oh, yeah, she's bent.

Ship these off to SD HQ and let support see 'em.  Not quite as bad as my wobble, but it's not looking great either.

Already sent and waiting for a response. smile