1

Topic: PLA Ramen

So I've just tried to make the switch over to PLA from ABS.  I just put the PLA pellets in there, let it run for an hour or two until it got clear and the ABS stopped showing up, as suggested here:  http://www.soliforum.com/topic/7163/how … bs-to-pla/

Unfortunately, I'm having a lot of trouble getting good filament out of the PLA.

I'm extruding horizontally, with the original 1.75 mm nozzle.  I'm using natural PLA pellets.  They were purchased from Filabot last year, but according to the website, it's 4043D from Natureworks, just like the pellets in the revolve3D store.  The temperature is at 155 C.  If I try to go any lower, the barrel starts turning.

The diameters that I'm getting, over the course of a few feet, range from 1.08 mm to 1.64 mm.  The only points where I'm getting anything near 1.75 mm is right before, after, and within the ramen.  With ABS, I was able to get 1.67 mm pretty consistently.

Additionally, I have it about 3 feet up, with a clear space underneath it to coil, but it won't coil nicely.  It goes around semi-randomly.  When I have it about a foot and a half above the ground, it gets ramen-y every foot or so.  Even 3 feet up, it gets rameny every yard or two.  The only differences between this setup and the ABS setup are:
1. This is horizontal while the ABS was at 45 degrees.  When PLA was at 45 degrees, it wouldn't get bigger than 1.18 mm.
2.  The temperature is at 155C instead of 180. 

It's rather annoying.  It almost like when it's hot, it stretches too much, but once it cools, it's too stiff to properly coil on the ground. 

I'd appreciate any help you can suggest! 

Thanks!

2

Re: PLA Ramen

Make sure that the output is fully translucent, no longer white, to verify that all ABS has been purged.  I've had to drop the temp down to 145 to get thick enough extrusion for my printer's drive gear to 'bite'. 
My filastruder is mounted vertically coiling onto the floor with very limited space available, so the same thing happens as to you, but my printer will still work with it.  Just have to weed out the super thin sections by hand and cut the filament at those spots.  I'm working on building a winder, hoping it helps.

3

Re: PLA Ramen

The PLA not having been dried properly will cause this. Have you read the sticky on polymer extrusion?

http://www.soliforum.com/topic/3935/pol … -tutorial/

4

Re: PLA Ramen

raykholo wrote:

Make sure that the output is fully translucent, no longer white, to verify that all ABS has been purged.  I've had to drop the temp down to 145 to get thick enough extrusion for my printer's drive gear to 'bite'. 
My filastruder is mounted vertically coiling onto the floor with very limited space available, so the same thing happens as to you, but my printer will still work with it.  Just have to weed out the super thin sections by hand and cut the filament at those spots.  I'm working on building a winder, hoping it helps.


Why not just drill the nozzle larger? It is 1.58mm stock, so 1.75mm would be a good start. Drill bits in 0.05mm increments are $2 from McMaster.

5

Re: PLA Ramen

Also helpful:

http://www.soliforum.com/topic/4108/my- … s-and-pla/

6

Re: PLA Ramen

@raykholo, the extrusion is completely translucent.  I let it extrude at ABS temp for about 2 hours, and then at 155 for a few more.  Did the nipple not start turning at such a low temperature?  Mine started rotating at 152ish.  I suspect that having a winder could be really helpful, since it seems like every once in a while there's too much friction between the filament and the filament guide, and the weight from the dropping filament can't overcome it. 

@elmoret,  I've read both of those posts.  I was worried about bringing the temperature down since the packaging suggests a temperature of 150-190 for extrusion and, since it seemed that the barrel started turning around 152.  I may have been mistaken, since I stopped it immediately when I heard the hopper splitting between layers (the print had warped so we had to pause it and tape it down, which weakened some of the layers), and didn't start the motor again until I turned the temperature back up.
I didn't pre-dry, since the pellets were in two airtight bags, but moisture is definitely something to consider.  Would sticking a bag of desicant into the bag of pellets be enough to dry it, or would I actually have to bake the moisture off?  Also, wouldn't the moisture mostly cause bubbles in the filament?  Would the moisture be enough to cause the ramen?

Thanks!

7

Re: PLA Ramen

Tim:  Any special considerations for the drill bit?  I'll throw some of these:  http://www.mcmaster.com/#2958a24/=t5lshy (and incremental larger sizes) into my upcoming order at McMaster.  I do want to setup the winder and get a read on what those diameters are before I drill the nozzle. 



@Titaniadioxide:
That's why I wanted to make sure that all the ABS was flushed out.  Took me longer than 2 hours.

Nipple rotating is a sign that the motor block needs to be moved back a bit or the main block moved forward.  The back end of the auger should not touch the hex socket, this will cause the nipple to rotate. 

The writer of Tim's 2nd link mentions going as low as "138-142" with PLA which is the only reason I felt comfortable doing it.

Grab a cheapo toaster oven for the pellets.  Then store the filament in a sealable container with desiccant.  I just did that to revive some purchased filament and rechargeable desiccant cartridges like what Revolve3D sells.  Amazon had 4 for $10-12.

8

Re: PLA Ramen

titaniadioxide wrote:

I didn't pre-dry, since the pellets were in two airtight bags, but moisture is definitely something to consider.  Would sticking a bag of desicant into the bag of pellets be enough to dry it, or would I actually have to bake the moisture off?  Also, wouldn't the moisture mostly cause bubbles in the filament?  Would the moisture be enough to cause the ramen?

Yes, moisture will definitely cause ramen and extreme variations in filament diameter. The moisture is boiling in the melt zone, resulting in unstable pressure gradients. You need to pre dry, especially if they've been sitting for a year. Plastic bags are not airtight, not in the least.

9

Re: PLA Ramen

raykholo wrote:

Tim:  Any special considerations for the drill bit?  I'll throw some of these:  http://www.mcmaster.com/#2958a24/=t5lshy (and incremental larger sizes) into my upcoming order at McMaster.  I do want to setup the winder and get a read on what those diameters are before I drill the nozzle.

Those are probably fine, but I use these:  30565A227

raykholo wrote:

Nipple rotating is a sign that the motor block needs to be moved back a bit or the main block moved forward.  The back end of the auger should not touch the hex socket, this will cause the nipple to rotate.

That is *a* sign, not the only sign. Another cause of nipple rotation is motor overload, like what happens when the polymer isn't hot enough to extrude.

raykholo wrote:

The writer of Tim's 2nd link mentions going as low as "138-142" with PLA which is the only reason I felt comfortable doing it.

He was using a different controller, and the only person to use that controller. 150C is about the lowest I'd go with PLA. Removing moisture is key. After that, running vertical/using a winder are helpful, I've heard. I almost never use PLA, so others have more experience than I.

10

Re: PLA Ramen

elmoret wrote:
raykholo wrote:

Tim:  Any special considerations for the drill bit?  I'll throw some of these:  http://www.mcmaster.com/#2958a24/=t5lshy (and incremental larger sizes) into my upcoming order at McMaster.  I do want to setup the winder and get a read on what those diameters are before I drill the nozzle.

Those are probably fine, but I use these:  30565A227



Same bit material, 135 degree angle.  Should have noticed those, they're right above what I linked in the catalog.  Thanks.



elmoret wrote:
raykholo wrote:

Nipple rotating is a sign that the motor block needs to be moved back a bit or the main block moved forward.  The back end of the auger should not touch the hex socket, this will cause the nipple to rotate.

That is *a* sign, not the only sign. Another cause of nipple rotation is motor overload, like what happens when the polymer isn't hot enough to extrude.

raykholo wrote:

The writer of Tim's 2nd link mentions going as low as "138-142" with PLA which is the only reason I felt comfortable doing it.

He was using a different controller, and the only person to use that controller. 150C is about the lowest I'd go with PLA. Removing moisture is key. After that, running vertical/using a winder are helpful, I've heard. I almost never use PLA, so others have more experience than I.

Drill out nozzle, go back to slightly higher temps.  Understood, will do.

11

Re: PLA Ramen

Thanks a ton!  I'll make sure to dry off the pellets in an oven before we use it again.  Do you know of anything to store the pellets in that actually /is/ airtight?  It would be a lot more convenient to dry all the pellets and spend a bit of money on something that keeps the air and moisture out, than to bake the moisture off of each batch off before we use it. 

Also, is there something about the pellets that make them susceptible to the moisture, or will we have to do the same to any old prints we grind up to recycle?  Gut feeling is that PLA as a material itself is moisture-sucking, right?

Thanks for all the help!

12

Re: PLA Ramen

Nothing is 100% airtight, but a mason jar would be better than a thin bag.

Industrial filament extrusion companies dry the PLA 2 hours before use. If they have a large hopper, the hopper has to have integrated drying. That's how pissy PLA is about humidity.

13

Re: PLA Ramen

That's insane.  It's that pissy and it's still one of the main 3D printing materials?  We'll look into some mason jars or other airtight containers.

Thanks!

14

Re: PLA Ramen

Its not about what's easier for the manufacturer, its about what's easy for the customer - and PLA has low warp (no need for a heated bed) and smells nice, so it is in demand.

15

Re: PLA Ramen

I use "Iris Watertight totes" to store pellets, colorant, and filament. They work really well with some of the rechargeable desiccates inside. My first container for filament was a pet food storage bin made by iris which also worked well.

www.Revolve3D.com
[email protected]
3D Printer Filament, ABS Pellets, PLA pellets, Colorant, and Accessories

16

Re: PLA Ramen

elmoret wrote:

The PLA not having been dried properly will cause this. Have you read the sticky on polymer extrusion?
http://www.soliforum.com/topic/3935/pol … -tutorial/

I know i failed to read that. Wish it was more obvious such as "how to extrude PLA tutorial" or something that would be more right in your face type of topic.

I also wish that the price for filawinder on the main page was not set to be 59.99 with an image of assembled unit, but 159.99.
Why this deceiving technique does not apply to filastruder ? When you click on filastruder and clearly buy what you see (with an exception of 2x6 base and a required filter).

Most people look at the picture and then at the price. If price is (i can afford what i see) then its a purchase. But with filawinder its a lie.
I almost bought it. Realized that it was a scam.
If it was sold on Ebay like that, i would file a complaint for advertising practices showing one thing and selling another.
That just got me so so far away from you guys.

Same with the nozzle filter. Yes it was stated that its required, but it was stated at the very bottom and there was no option to buy nozzle with filter when i was completing my purchase. If it was there and said to be "recommended" then i would add it but the only option you get is 1.75 or 3mm, no filter options as if its not important.

I absolutely HATE this tactic of sales. Its low and dirty regardless of what anybody says or blame me for not reading something thats at the very end of the poem.

17

Re: PLA Ramen

Oh man. Here we go again.

The title is "Polymer Extrusion - a brief tutorial". It covers much more than PLA extrusion, why would I name it PLA exclusively? It even talks about PLA extrusion and the need for PLA to be dry on the product page, which based on your bit about the melt filter nozzle, you didn't read much of. Here's the blurb right on the product page:

http://www.filastruder.com wrote:

PLA requires a little more care. The Filastruder extrudes it fine, but you have to make sure to completely dry the polymer before extruding.  PLA also needs a lot of cooling, and ideally a winder like this one. Our users are able to do +/-0.05mm tolerances with only moderate drying and without a winder. Here's one user's experience with both ABS and PLA.

The website always displays the lowest cost variant. This is not a scam, the other available variants have clearly displayed prices. This is the way Shopify works, it is not something I can change in the store's settings. E3D hotends work the same way - bowden variants cost more than regular variants.

The text on the product page about the melt filter nozzle is not at the bottom, it is near the middle of the page, actually the top-middle. It is the 4th paragraph, out of 13 paragraphs. Your claim that it is near the bottom is entirely false.

I am not sure what you mean by "no option to buy the filter with the Filastruder". People do it all the time, about half of my customers. Your claim about this is also false.

There is nothing dirty about this "tactic". Shopify always displays the lowest variant's price, and there's no need to include melt filter nozzles when some folks have no use for them, as they run bigger printer nozzles (or use the Filastruder for things unrelated to 3D printing, of which I have several customers).

Spreading lies is not something I will tolerate. Your posting style is not constructive. Tell me this - how much of the product page did you read before purchasing?

18

Re: PLA Ramen

E3D nozzle shows exatly what its priced with and what i got when i bought it. All i had to do is to put it together. Filawinder shows a unit that would (obviously) need assembly but is priced at 59.99, but when you click the product page, it switches to 159.99. How is that not a lie ? OK if its not a lie then its a trick advertising that is still an ugly way of dealing with business.

Filter for 1.75mm should not only be listed where you cant see it without scrolling down, but it should POP (as highly recommended and why) on the screen once 1.75mm nozzle is selected. There could be other ways to do it am sure, but the way it is right now seems to be hidden from plain site.

Filter is not an option when you buy filastruder, you have to make a separate purchase for it. not false claim.

19

Re: PLA Ramen

It is not a lie, not a trick, not a tactic. It is how Shopify works - it always displays the lowest cost variant. Here, let me show you:

http://i.imgur.com/jJOvV7x.png

See there? $79.99. That is because the lowest cost E3Dv6 option costs 79.99.

http://i.imgur.com/pidDxOC.png

The 3.0mm Bowden version costs $89.99. All prices are clearly displayed when the version is selected. The Filawinder comes in two versions - the PCB kit, and the full kit. It is not a trick, it is two versions of the same product. I have no option in Shopify to change this behavior.

On a 1920x1200 screen, only the first paragraph is visible. It is not reasonable to pack all relevant information into 4 lines of text. If you choose not to read the whole product page before making a purchase, I'm not sure what to tell you.

20

Re: PLA Ramen

I've asked the Shopify theme creator about displaying variants as ranges rather than minimum variant prices. He came up with the liquid code to do so:

{% if product.price_varies %} from {{ product.price_min | money }} - {{ product.price_max | money }} {% else %}{{ product.price | money }}{% endif %}

I have never coded in liquid before, so I had no idea how to do this previously.

http://i.imgur.com/NfWB2IT.png

I thought it was fine before, but hopefully you find this more suitable! I'm always open to suggestions, provided they are reasonable.... and presented in a non-offensive way. No one likes being called a scammer.

21

Re: PLA Ramen

Yes i do find it more suitable for filawinder. As for E3D, i see no problem with it. I saw the picture an the price. When i ordered it and recieved it, it matched and no additional  (see below) hardware required to make it work properly.
By properly (for filastruder) i mean to extrude usable filament, not just extrude filament. Its a fine line that makes all the difference.
Filastruder absolutely needs to have filtered nozzle offered when selecting the size of the nozzle as well as offer an explanation as to why you should get it.

I dont know what you mean by "how Shopify works" Is this a pre-made website where you only get to edit small sections ?

In any event, i am not trying to score a $159 filawinder for $59 or get a free 1.75mm nozzle with filter. I really want the filawinder and i fixed the filter thing as i described in my $3.00 filter post as well as ordered one from another source for less so its no issues. Biggest problem is that someone else (another jerk like me) could run into the same problem as i have and start the same issues all over again.

I've not sold nearly as many as you have but i do lots of buying online. When i realized that filter was needed to extrude usable filament i got mad. When i saw the $59.99 to $159.99 switch on filawinder, i got even worse.

My fever is down now thanks to your price range specification on filawinder but still steaming over the filter and false hope of getting the filawinder for $59 sad Oh well, maybe one day or another place will emerge.

Thanks for taking action.

22

Re: PLA Ramen

Shopify is a pre-made website, with templates. It handles all of the low level coding, I just pick options like "upload photo" and "price" and "shipping weight". I picked a template when I set up the website - I have never done any coding for it. I'm an engineer, not a web designer.

As for the melt filter, I will definitely reconsider how to handle it. It probably isn't good to include them with every kit since that would increase the price and some folks don't need them, but I will think about how to make it more clear. To me putting it on the product page was enough, but I guess some folks don't read it.

As for the Filawinder for $59, that is well below the cost to produce it. You have to remember we're buying custom circuit boards and motors in very low quantities - 100 here, 200 there. We can't get the same price breaks that companies like Dewalt or Samsung or Apple get - not even close.

I don't want you to be angry or disappointed. Lets make a deal - I send you a $25 coupon code towards a melt filter or a Filawinder, and you promise to read product pages and stickied threads before getting angry. Deal? smile

23

Re: PLA Ramen

Oh yeah i know those. I hate them man. I had few websites of my own and never picked pre-made stuff. They just never seemed to work for me. Always had to design it my self so it would not only know how to change it but also how it works.
I dont code websites for anybody so i cant  help.

No need to include it in every kit, but users should get some IN YOUR FACE choice of getting one instead of stock one (for additional price just like the printed hopper/no hopper option you already have)

24

Re: PLA Ramen

yeah Im not that impressed with PLA for more than just the moisture thing. it has many down sides I feel. too brittle/hard biodegrades easy , sun light even does it, close tolerances on good extrusion temps/climate conditions, cant use acetone to finish/weld... and dont care for the maple smell in house so need vent anyway may as well use a more friendly material for my prints plus there's other options for FDA approved materials etc. I consider PLA a beginners/amateurs choice like for students using something like the SD Press. I grew up building ABS plastic models with acetone and other such based glues (never sniffed/huffed nor wanted to) I limited my glue/paint solvents exposure or done in good ventilation or got the wrath of Mom on me lol.

Solidoodle 2 with Deluxe kit cover & glass bed with heater. and 2nd board SD2 used not 3rd and alum platform not installed yet still wood. also need cooling fan installed to board. use Repetier Host couple vers. Slic3r also have all free ware STL programs