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Topic: The death of filastruder...

Sorry elmoret, you had a good run though.  smile

http://www.3ders.org/articles/20140626- … ament.html

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Re: The death of filastruder...

I've been watching that for a few weeks now. It will be interesting to see how they handle retraction and color/material changeovers. It takes a screw-based extruder a few hundred grams of material to completely purge, but perhaps they have a novel approach to the problem. I also haven't seen any prints that require retraction - I'm not sure how precise retraction could be done with a pellet-based system unless they're converting to filament in between.

Always exciting to see this technology push forward!

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Re: The death of filastruder...

Do you think that the screw feeds direct into the nozzle for printing, or do you think they produce a filament then feed through a traditional hot end and nozzle.   I'd love to see a picture of the guts. 

I agree it's exciting to see how much things are moving forward.  I've been meaning to pick your brain about something having to do with kickstarter.  I have a product ready but it's not protected yet.  Look for a PM from me soon.

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Re: The death of filastruder...

It is probably one of these three:

1.) Screw direct into nozzle
2.) Pellets to filament to hotend
3.) Direct pellet feed, e.g. a ram pushing individual pellets down a bowden tube or similar.

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Re: The death of filastruder...

I'm not sure how the bed can move (bed is on X and Y) within the box. It looks very tight.

How much of this is just rendering? Those photos were very...precise.

I suspect this is far from finished.

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Re: The death of filastruder...

I guess they would have to base that off an injection moulding extrusion system, I would not deem that ideal for 3D printing applications, long heat up time of the extruder, injection moulding machines have to purge after a shut-down or pre longed period of rest to clean the extruder as material discolours due to heat soak...

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Re: The death of filastruder...

This Kickstarter - Sculptify went live yesterday, I had signed up for email notification so they actually linked me to it before it was live.  It still doesn't show the mechanism for turning pellets into filament which you would expect it would want to remain secret for now, but they do talk about it and the educated might be able to make a better guess after listening to them talk.  I don't count myself among the educated so I won't hazard a guess.  I'd be very curious to hear what Tim has to say.

The cost is crazy, you could have a swarm of filastruders and a couple solidoodles running for that price.

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Re: The death of filastruder...

The elephant in the room is retraction. Here's how they handle it:

Although David's extrusion method is considerably different that filament-based 3D printers, we have had success with different types of retraction and drool control measures, these will be implemented prior to shipping.

So basically "don't worry, we'll sort that out later". To me, not really confidence inspiring for those of us that have attempted a zero retraction print.

The other issue they didn't discuss is material purging. You do a print in red, and then you want one in white - what happens in between? On a Filastruder or other auger-based extruder, you're looking at around 50 grams before the melt zone is completely purged. Even if they manage to shrink the melt zone an order of magnitude, you're looking at 5 grams wasted between filament changes.

I'm a really big fan of standing on the shoulders of giants - looking at what people in industry are doing before trying to implement it on the DIY scale.  All of the big boys - 3DS, Stratasys, etc use filament. If pellets produced a better quality print, we'd at least see that as an option. I don't think pellet based printing is impossible, but they haven't addressed the main concerns and typically in my experience, that means they are currently unsolved.

They got the Kickstarter formula for money figured out though - pretty box, pretty video. Rake in the cash.

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Re: The death of filastruder...

There is also no way to empty it.  In an interview on the All Things 3D podcast, they said you just need to figure out how much you will need for the print and only put in that much.

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Re: The death of filastruder...

I don't like the idea of combining these two systems.  In my mind these are tasks ideally separated regardless of ability.  Purposeful separation keeps things repairable, and less prone to breakage. I can't imagine trying to unclog an extruder system like this. 

And as demand for 3d printing goes up, filament prices will plummet.  Which even as of right now prices are relatively ridiculously reasonable per part. 

I think the system is a very inefficient way to store your raw material.  Spooled filament is ridiculously compact.  Where as pelletized filament of necessity has large amounts of air gaps, relatively speaking.  I don't want to screw around measuring out pellets per print, or having some obscenely sized hopper to feed the machine. 

I don't mean to be harsh, but I think this is more of a novelty printer. I mean it's really neat, genuinely.  But I'd rather just have filament production go down in price as opposed to using a more raw shape of the plastic.

But if I am wrong, and there is significant benefits, great!

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Re: The death of filastruder...

LOL, makes me think of Cletus Judd's "how do you milk a cow" song.

think Ill stick to whats proven to work a bit longer. no worries Elmoret.

hate wasting even the few cm I do now swapping filaments.

that idea is just for 1 color R&D folks saving overhead costs

Solidoodle 2 with Deluxe kit cover & glass bed with heater. and 2nd board SD2 used not 3rd and alum platform not installed yet still wood. also need cooling fan installed to board. use Repetier Host couple vers. Slic3r also have all free ware STL programs

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Re: The death of filastruder...

IanJohnson wrote:

There is also no way to empty it.  In an interview on the All Things 3D podcast, they said you just need to figure out how much you will need for the print and only put in that much.

so we just hope our G-code estimates are exact and pellets all perfectly shaped? HAHAHA good luck

Solidoodle 2 with Deluxe kit cover & glass bed with heater. and 2nd board SD2 used not 3rd and alum platform not installed yet still wood. also need cooling fan installed to board. use Repetier Host couple vers. Slic3r also have all free ware STL programs

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Re: The death of filastruder...

I see they have a whole spectrum of 4 grey scale colors available too. hehe kinda like Henry Fords model T/A "any color you want, long as its black" grey, neutral or white

Solidoodle 2 with Deluxe kit cover & glass bed with heater. and 2nd board SD2 used not 3rd and alum platform not installed yet still wood. also need cooling fan installed to board. use Repetier Host couple vers. Slic3r also have all free ware STL programs

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Re: The death of filastruder...

IanJohnson wrote:

There is also no way to empty it.  In an interview on the All Things 3D podcast, they said you just need to figure out how much you will need for the print and only put in that much.

Turn it upside down and shake!

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Re: The death of filastruder...

elmoret wrote:
IanJohnson wrote:

There is also no way to empty it.  In an interview on the All Things 3D podcast, they said you just need to figure out how much you will need for the print and only put in that much.

Turn it upside down and shake!

LOL or hold it like for thick syrup or ketchup to drip out at 200c

Solidoodle 2 with Deluxe kit cover & glass bed with heater. and 2nd board SD2 used not 3rd and alum platform not installed yet still wood. also need cooling fan installed to board. use Repetier Host couple vers. Slic3r also have all free ware STL programs

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Re: The death of filastruder...

so is it filtered? and what about air bubbles this all needs delt with b4 extruding

Solidoodle 2 with Deluxe kit cover & glass bed with heater. and 2nd board SD2 used not 3rd and alum platform not installed yet still wood. also need cooling fan installed to board. use Repetier Host couple vers. Slic3r also have all free ware STL programs

17 (edited by n2ri 2014-08-20 18:32:50)

Re: The death of filastruder...

http://sculptify.com/pages/david

their video shows it using flex plastic/rubber not ABS/PLA it uses many types of materials some need proper ventelation due to hazards can go up to 330c temps.
the bed does all the moving. looks like the SD Press but with hopper at top. I like the quick release build plate though it seems small.

wonder how hot it melts at. it could be good for gaskets etc if high temp material like for small engines etc. depends on price which is near Makerbot cost.

Solidoodle 2 with Deluxe kit cover & glass bed with heater. and 2nd board SD2 used not 3rd and alum platform not installed yet still wood. also need cooling fan installed to board. use Repetier Host couple vers. Slic3r also have all free ware STL programs

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Re: The death of filastruder...

The other issue they don't mention is how this unit handles natural PLA/ABS + master batch. In a Filastruder, which has a larger melt zone and mixing zone than this design, it is difficult to get enough mixing. This is why you don't see any prints from them that are natural + colorant.

They're also charging $18/kg for pellets. Yikes.

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Re: The death of filastruder...

I hadn't considered retraction, but I knew that purging would be an issue.  Good points all, interesting to see how it shakes out.

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Re: The death of filastruder...

cmetzel wrote:

The cost is crazy, you could have a swarm of filastruders and a couple solidoodles running for that price.

+1

SD2 - Glass Bed, Fans on PCB and Y motor, Custom enclosure
Slicer - Simplify3D

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Re: The death of filastruder...

elmoret wrote:

I'm a really big fan of standing on the shoulders of giants - looking at what people in industry are doing before trying to implement it on the DIY scale.  All of the big boys - 3DS, Stratasys, etc use filament. If pellets produced a better quality print, we'd at least see that as an option. I don't think pellet based printing is impossible, but they haven't addressed the main concerns and typically in my experience, that means they are currently unsolved.

I will add one more to that. I have worked in the extrusion industry for over 7 years. I have yet to see a professional extrusion machine that retracts. So as elmoret said for the printing side, it holds the same for the extrusion side as well. Usually extrusion as treated as a 'forward only' process, and setup requires a good amount of purging and pulling before getting into 'at speed' operating mode. My guess is that they are probably attempting a wiping action between extrusions. And the best way would be to wipe inside the fill region of the print. And if they do that, Stratasys has a direct patent on that little trick.

PS: When they mention that you 'add what you need' I am going to guess that they are taking into account that whatever is still sitting in the melt zone from the last job will be the first used material for the next job, so think of it like adding not the pellets that will be used in the print job itself, but adding enough so that the material sitting in the melt zone will end with the same amount.

Its a ridiculous design. I am willing to bet that the only way to get color is to use pellets already mixed (by this, not a mix of base pellets and colorant pellets, but pellets made from extruding the mix before hand and then regrinding back into colored pellets).

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Re: The death of filastruder...

yes the site shows the 4 dif bags of pre colored bits (not pellets

Solidoodle 2 with Deluxe kit cover & glass bed with heater. and 2nd board SD2 used not 3rd and alum platform not installed yet still wood. also need cooling fan installed to board. use Repetier Host couple vers. Slic3r also have all free ware STL programs

23 (edited by Ggalisky 2014-08-22 23:32:55)

Re: The death of filastruder...

The base with build plate looks quite solid. I like the screw driven design. Some one is building a printer like that in the project section, and I think the thread is called precision 3d printer. Anyways it is a very cool concept, but $18 per kg is crazy.

Ulitmaker 2, a few repraps, Custom Big FFF 3D printer with heated chamber.

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Re: The death of filastruder...

3 days to go and just about $10K shy of the goal...

BTW, I came across this and wonder if they were planning on using a similar technology for the extruder...

http://www.arburg.com/products-and-serv … er-system/

SD2 - Stock - Enclosure - Heated Bed - Glass Plate - Auto Fire Extinguisher
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Re: The death of filastruder...

That's been around for a long time. IIRC they get around the ooze/retraction issue by closing the nozzle.