1

Topic: Upgraded Aluminum & Copper print bed

AS I had previously mentioned in another post, I've been thinking about using a solid copper print surface, and when the heater pad ailed a week ago, I took the opportunity to upgrade the whole print bed.

First off, I bought  replacement for the QU-BD heater, and while I was at it, I also bought the Solidoodle aluminum platform to replace the old wood one, and a solid copper plate to replace the aluminum one.

The first thing I noticed when I got all my stuff was the weight difference between the aluminum and the copper plates.  The aluminum plate weighs about 0.8 lb., while the copper is 2.6 lbs. !!

http://www.soliforum.com/misc.php?action=pun_attachment&item=3994

Anyway, I attached the new pad to the bottom of the copper plate, transplanted the ballscrew to the new aluminum platform, and got everything mounted.  There were a few problems along the way, such as the ball screw nut hitting the cross bar ("Y" motion transfer rod), but the interference was only 1mm, so with a little bit of work that was taken care of.

http://www.soliforum.com/misc.php?action=pun_attachment&item=3995

Previously I had reused the original Solidoodle thermistor, but this time I went with the QU-BD thermistor.  Which brings up a couple of questions:

1.  I've read (and been told previously) that I would need to change the thermistor value in the firmware to get accurate readings. 

After attaching the glass sheet on top of the copper bed, I used a IR thermometer to get readings off the surface at 50°C, 60°C, 75°C, 90°C & 100°C.  The readings are nearly on the money (+/- 0.5°C) at the 50°C setting, and drift a bit by the time you get to 100°C, when the IR readings are bout 2°C lower than the thermistor readings. 

Did anyone else get similar readings?  In view of these readings, is there any reason I should update the firmware?

On a side note, the copper bed does have much more even heat dispersal.  I measured the temps at may points across the surface, and the worst deviation, lowest to highest reading, is about 3°C.

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To print or, 3D print, that is the question...
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...and too much time on my hands.

2 (edited by adrian 2013-11-24 05:33:03)

Re: Upgraded Aluminum & Copper print bed

Firstly - IR is next to useless to read Copper - Coppers emissivity is even worse than Aluminium. The temp you think you are reading is not the actual temp. Read http://support.fluke.com/raytek-sales/D … EVB_LR.PDF to understand Non-Contact IR Temp measurement of Metals and Glass etc. There is a shedload more to it than point an IR gun and go 'thats the temp' .

Aluminium is 0.05 and is considered inaccurate - Polished Copper is a lowly 0.02!
Don't take my word for it - Ask Fluke! smile
http://www.emlab.com/m/store/Fluke%20Th … Values.pdf

As to if you need to change - Probably easier to just ask the source code rather than guess. But the two thermistor types have very different Beta values - The QU-BD is 3950, the most common type of EPCOS 100k used has a beta of 4036. Beta value does effect temp greatly, and a quick look at the thermistor tables shows the differences:

QU-BD Thermistor Table

#if (THERMISTORHEATER_0 == 80) || (THERMISTORHEATER_1 == 80) || (THERMISTORHEATER_2 == 80) || (THERMISTORBED == 80) // QU-BD silicone bed QWG-104F-3950 thermistor
const short temptable_80[][2] PROGMEM = {
        {1*OVERSAMPLENR,        938},
        {31*OVERSAMPLENR,       314},
        {41*OVERSAMPLENR,       290},
        {51*OVERSAMPLENR,       272},
        {61*OVERSAMPLENR,       258},
        {71*OVERSAMPLENR,       247},
        {81*OVERSAMPLENR,       237},
        {91*OVERSAMPLENR,       229},
        {101*OVERSAMPLENR,      221},
        {111*OVERSAMPLENR,      215},
        {121*OVERSAMPLENR,      209},
        {131*OVERSAMPLENR,      204},
        {141*OVERSAMPLENR,      199},
        {151*OVERSAMPLENR,      195},
        {161*OVERSAMPLENR,      190},
        {171*OVERSAMPLENR,      187},
        {181*OVERSAMPLENR,      183},
        {191*OVERSAMPLENR,      179},
        {201*OVERSAMPLENR,      176},
        {221*OVERSAMPLENR,      170},
        {241*OVERSAMPLENR,      165},
        {261*OVERSAMPLENR,      160},
        {281*OVERSAMPLENR,      155},
        {301*OVERSAMPLENR,      150},
        {331*OVERSAMPLENR,      144},
        {361*OVERSAMPLENR,      139},
        {391*OVERSAMPLENR,      133},
        {421*OVERSAMPLENR,      128},
        {451*OVERSAMPLENR,      123},
        {491*OVERSAMPLENR,      117},
        {531*OVERSAMPLENR,      111},
        {571*OVERSAMPLENR,      105},
        {611*OVERSAMPLENR,      100},
        {641*OVERSAMPLENR,      95},
        {681*OVERSAMPLENR,      90},
        {711*OVERSAMPLENR,      85},
        {751*OVERSAMPLENR,      79},
        {791*OVERSAMPLENR,      72},
        {811*OVERSAMPLENR,      69},
        {831*OVERSAMPLENR,      65},
        {871*OVERSAMPLENR,      57},
        {881*OVERSAMPLENR,      55},
        {901*OVERSAMPLENR,      51},
        {921*OVERSAMPLENR,      45},
        {941*OVERSAMPLENR,      39},
        {971*OVERSAMPLENR,      28},
        {981*OVERSAMPLENR,      23},
        {991*OVERSAMPLENR,      17},
        {1001*OVERSAMPLENR,     9},
        {1021*OVERSAMPLENR,     -27}
};
#endif
//{SD Patch} End

Type 1 Table:

#if (THERMISTORHEATER_0 == 1) || (THERMISTORHEATER_1 == 1)  || (THERMISTORHEATER_2 == 1) || (THERMISTORBED == 1) //100k bed thermistor

const short temptable_1[][2] PROGMEM = {
{       23*OVERSAMPLENR ,       300     },
{       25*OVERSAMPLENR ,       295     },
{       27*OVERSAMPLENR ,       290     },
{       28*OVERSAMPLENR ,       285     },
{       31*OVERSAMPLENR ,       280     },
{       33*OVERSAMPLENR ,       275     },
{       35*OVERSAMPLENR ,       270     },
{       38*OVERSAMPLENR ,       265     },
{       41*OVERSAMPLENR ,       260     },
{       44*OVERSAMPLENR ,       255     },
{       48*OVERSAMPLENR ,       250     },
{       52*OVERSAMPLENR ,       245     },
{       56*OVERSAMPLENR ,       240     },
{       61*OVERSAMPLENR ,       235     },
{       66*OVERSAMPLENR ,       230     },
{       71*OVERSAMPLENR ,       225     },
{       78*OVERSAMPLENR ,       220     },
{       84*OVERSAMPLENR ,       215     },
{       92*OVERSAMPLENR ,       210     },
{       100*OVERSAMPLENR        ,       205     },
{       109*OVERSAMPLENR        ,       200     },
{       120*OVERSAMPLENR        ,       195     },
{       131*OVERSAMPLENR        ,       190     },
{       143*OVERSAMPLENR        ,       185     },
{       156*OVERSAMPLENR        ,       180     },
{       171*OVERSAMPLENR        ,       175     },
{       187*OVERSAMPLENR        ,       170     },
{       205*OVERSAMPLENR        ,       165     },
{       224*OVERSAMPLENR        ,       160     },
{       245*OVERSAMPLENR        ,       155     },
{       268*OVERSAMPLENR        ,       150     },
{       293*OVERSAMPLENR        ,       145     },
{       320*OVERSAMPLENR        ,       140     },
{       348*OVERSAMPLENR        ,       135     },
{       379*OVERSAMPLENR        ,       130     },
{       411*OVERSAMPLENR        ,       125     },
{       445*OVERSAMPLENR        ,       120     },
{       480*OVERSAMPLENR        ,       115     },
{       516*OVERSAMPLENR        ,       110     },
{       553*OVERSAMPLENR        ,       105     },
{       591*OVERSAMPLENR        ,       100     },
{       628*OVERSAMPLENR        ,       95      },
{       665*OVERSAMPLENR        ,       90      },
{       702*OVERSAMPLENR        ,       85      },
{       737*OVERSAMPLENR        ,       80      },
{       770*OVERSAMPLENR        ,       75      },
{       801*OVERSAMPLENR        ,       70      },
{       830*OVERSAMPLENR        ,       65      },
{       857*OVERSAMPLENR        ,       60      },
{       881*OVERSAMPLENR        ,       55      },
{       903*OVERSAMPLENR        ,       50      },
{       922*OVERSAMPLENR        ,       45      },
{       939*OVERSAMPLENR        ,       40      },
{       954*OVERSAMPLENR        ,       35      },
{       966*OVERSAMPLENR        ,       30      },
{       977*OVERSAMPLENR        ,       25      },
{       985*OVERSAMPLENR        ,       20      },
{       993*OVERSAMPLENR        ,       15      },
{       999*OVERSAMPLENR        ,       10      },
{       1004*OVERSAMPLENR       ,       5       },
{       1008*OVERSAMPLENR       ,       0       } //safety
};
#endif

The two thermistor tables look different to me - Close enough if you don't care for accuracy... there is a delta of up to 10°C in places...

But if you want accuracy - you really do need to change them. Regardless what your IR temp says smile

3 (edited by pirvan 2013-11-24 06:29:16)

Re: Upgraded Aluminum & Copper print bed

OK,  so I'm about to change the firmware

I downloaded the "pre-prepared" PC version for Solidoodle 2/3 from the Marlin Github, and made the following changes to the configuration.h file.

#define SOLIDOODLE_VERSION 3 //{SD Patch}

#define TEMP_SENSOR_BED 80 //{SD Patch}

Is there anything else I need t change to this or any other file before I upload this to the board?  Will the settings I had previously saved to EEPROM (x, y z & e calibrations) be preserved, or do I have to do them again after I flash the firmware.

So what's next?   Do I compile the firmware, upload it as is?  Speaking of uploading how do I do that?

To print or, 3D print, that is the question...
SD3 printer w/too many mods,  Printrbot Simple Maker Ed.,  FormLabs Form 1+
AnyCubic Photon, Shining 3D EinScan-S & Atlas 3D scanners...
...and too much time on my hands.

4

Re: Upgraded Aluminum & Copper print bed

pirvan wrote:

OK,  SO what do I need to do to change the firmware? 

I downloaded the "pre-prepared PC version

What board do you have ? Orig-Sanguinolou, or a RAMPS (pretty sure you are way before the printrboards ya? )

5

Re: Upgraded Aluminum & Copper print bed

adrian wrote:

What board do you have ? Orig-Sanguinolou, or a RAMPS (pretty sure you are way before the printrboards ya? )

I have the original Sanguinololu, unmodified (ATmega644p)

I started the Arduino software, and selected the board type (Sanguino w/ATmega644p).  looks like the COM port (COM3) is also selected.

I looks like I have to select the Solidoodle example.  Then what  Click the upload button?  Any other prep?  Can I backup the existing firmware?

To print or, 3D print, that is the question...
SD3 printer w/too many mods,  Printrbot Simple Maker Ed.,  FormLabs Form 1+
AnyCubic Photon, Shining 3D EinScan-S & Atlas 3D scanners...
...and too much time on my hands.

6 (edited by adrian 2013-11-24 06:59:21)

Re: Upgraded Aluminum & Copper print bed

To answer your final questions in order smile

Yes, No beyond editing and then saving the Configuration.h file, Not without an external ICSP programmer and its pointless anyway - if it breaks you just reupload till it works wink

If you get upload timeouts, then it'll be the speed in arduino-folder\hardware\sanguino\boards.txt which needs to be 38400 (I think its 57600 in some versions - it changed ).

If that still fails - I have an escape clause for you which I'll be covering later tonight but I'll pass the details to you in a PM beforehand if its an issue for you in next couple of hours smile

7

Re: Upgraded Aluminum & Copper print bed

adrian wrote:

To answer your final questions in order smile

Yes, No beyond editing and then saving the Configuration.h file, Not without an external ICSP programmer and its pointless anyway - if it breaks you just reupload till it works wink

If you get upload timeouts, then it'll be the speed in arduino-folder\hardware\sanguino\boards.txt which needs to be 38400 (I think its 57600 in some versions - it changed ).

If that still fails - I have an escape clause for you which I'll be covering later tonight but I'll pass the details to you in a PM beforehand if its an issue for you in next couple of hours smile

It says done uploading but I'm getting a "avrdude: stk500_getsync(): not in sync: resp=0x89".

What programmer am I supposed to check from the list, acvr, usb, parallel, arduino?

To print or, 3D print, that is the question...
SD3 printer w/too many mods,  Printrbot Simple Maker Ed.,  FormLabs Form 1+
AnyCubic Photon, Shining 3D EinScan-S & Atlas 3D scanners...
...and too much time on my hands.

8 (edited by adrian 2013-11-24 07:38:20)

Re: Upgraded Aluminum & Copper print bed

none - the programmer is for use when doing burn bootloader.

Just need COMPort selected, and the correct Boardtype selected.

That error is a coms error - yeah its informative I know tongue - so its either the comport is off or its the speed issue I mentioned above.
Edit that file and change the 57600 to 38400

9

Re: Upgraded Aluminum & Copper print bed

adrian wrote:

none - the programmer is for use when doing burn bootloader.

Just need COMPort selected, and the correct Boardtype selected.

That error is a coms error - yeah its informative I know tongue - so its either the comport is off or its the speed issue I mentioned above.
Edit that file and change the 57600 to 38400

I changed the baud rate and when I tried to upload I got this:

Binary sketch size: 59,202 bytes (of a 63,488 byte maximum)
avrdude: Yikes!  Invalid device signature.
         Double check connections and try again, or use -F to override
         this check.

Here is what the boards.txt shows
############################################################

atmega644.name=Sanguino W/ ATmega644P

atmega644.upload.protocol=stk500
atmega644.upload.maximum_size=63488
atmega644.upload.speed=38400

atmega644.bootloader.low_fuses=0xFF
atmega644.bootloader.high_fuses=0x9A
atmega644.bootloader.extended_fuses=0xFF
atmega644.bootloader.path=atmega
atmega644.bootloader.file=ATmegaBOOT_168_atmega644p.hex
#atmega644.bootloader.file=ATmegaBOOT_644P.hex
atmega644.bootloader.unlock_bits=0x3F
atmega644.bootloader.lock_bits=0x0F

atmega644.build.mcu=atmega644p
atmega644.build.f_cpu=16000000L
atmega644.build.core=arduino
atmega644.build.variant=standard
===========================================
Any ideas?

To print or, 3D print, that is the question...
SD3 printer w/too many mods,  Printrbot Simple Maker Ed.,  FormLabs Form 1+
AnyCubic Photon, Shining 3D EinScan-S & Atlas 3D scanners...
...and too much time on my hands.

10 (edited by adrian 2013-11-24 07:52:14)

Re: Upgraded Aluminum & Copper print bed

Ok, lets try this.

Replace all of that section with this:

##############################################################

atmega644.name=SolidoodleSanguino
atmega644.upload.protocol=stk500
atmega644.upload.maximum_size=63488
atmega644.upload.speed=38400
atmega644.bootloader.low_fuses=0xFF
atmega644.bootloader.high_fuses=0xDC
atmega644.bootloader.extended_fuses=0xFD
atmega644.bootloader.path=atmega644p
atmega644.bootloader.file=ATmegaBOOT_644P.hex
atmega644.bootloader.unlock_bits=0x3F
atmega644.bootloader.lock_bits=0x0F
atmega644.build.mcu=atmega644p
atmega644.build.f_cpu=16000000L
atmega644.build.core=arduino

Then make sure you select "SolidoodleSanguino" in Tools->Boards *after* restarting the IDE.

Failing this - I have another option so no need to sweat it yet smile

11

Re: Upgraded Aluminum & Copper print bed

adrian wrote:

Ok, lets try this.

Replace all of that section with this:

##############################################################

atmega644.name=SolidoodleSanguino
atmega644.upload.protocol=stk500
atmega644.upload.maximum_size=63488
atmega644.upload.speed=38400
atmega644.bootloader.low_fuses=0xFF
atmega644.bootloader.high_fuses=0xDC
atmega644.bootloader.extended_fuses=0xFD
atmega644.bootloader.path=atmega644p
atmega644.bootloader.file=ATmegaBOOT_644P.hex
atmega644.bootloader.unlock_bits=0x3F
atmega644.bootloader.lock_bits=0x0F
atmega644.build.mcu=atmega644p
atmega644.build.f_cpu=16000000L
atmega644.build.core=arduino

Then make sure you select "SolidoodleSanguino" in Tools->Boards *after* restarting the IDE.

Failing this - I have another option so no need to sweat it yet smile

This code gives me a compilation error, by the looks of it, some of the paths are wrong. In fact after this, I couldn't even verify the the sketch even when I went back to the original hardware.txt.  So I re-installed the Arduino environment again, made the modifications to the hardware and config .h files and tried to upload again.

It compiles , then starts uploading, but it's now stuck "uploading..."  I also get this:

java.lang.NumberFormatException: For input string: "38400atmega644.bootloader.low_fuses=0xFF"
    at java.lang.NumberFormatException.forInputString(NumberFormatException.java:48)
    at java.lang.Integer.parseInt(Integer.java:458)
    at java.lang.Integer.parseInt(Integer.java:499)
    at processing.app.debug.AvrdudeUploader.uploadViaBootloader(AvrdudeUploader.java:167)
    at processing.app.debug.AvrdudeUploader.uploadUsingPreferences(AvrdudeUploader.java:67)
    at processing.app.Sketch.upload(Sketch.java:1671)
    at processing.app.Sketch.exportApplet(Sketch.java:1627)
    at processing.app.Sketch.exportApplet(Sketch.java:1599)
    at processing.app.Editor$DefaultExportHandler.run(Editor.java:2380)
    at java.lang.Thread.run(Thread.java:619)



It's late, so I'm going to bed, I'll pick this up again tomorrow.

To print or, 3D print, that is the question...
SD3 printer w/too many mods,  Printrbot Simple Maker Ed.,  FormLabs Form 1+
AnyCubic Photon, Shining 3D EinScan-S & Atlas 3D scanners...
...and too much time on my hands.

12 (edited by adrian 2013-11-24 09:34:02)

Re: Upgraded Aluminum & Copper print bed

Unless its a cut n paste error - the issue is a typo in the board.txt file:

"38400atmega644.bootloader.low_fuses=0xFF"

I'm going to guess Notepad, as it loves eating linefeeds...
Edit it using Notepad++ to make sure the linefeeds are correct. And maybe delete each line wrap and hit enter again.

13

Re: Upgraded Aluminum & Copper print bed

Sorry about the late post.

Anyway I tried all these things, but nothing works.  The code you posted always gives me a path error when I try to compile the code:

In file included from /Marlin.h:30,
                 from cardreader.cpp:1:
M:\Solidoodle-arduino-1.0.5-windows\arduino-1.0.5\hardware\sanguino\cores\arduino/Arduino.h:213:26: error: pins_arduino.h: No such file or directory

It's possible that your Arduino environment is different than the one I'm using.  I downloaded the pre-configured version of Arduino specially made for the Solidoodle, so the folder and file locations may be different than yours.

If I use the original board.txt, it compiles fine, but I get the "not in sync" error.

One thing I noticed is that some of your hex values are different than the original ones.  Should they be?

To print or, 3D print, that is the question...
SD3 printer w/too many mods,  Printrbot Simple Maker Ed.,  FormLabs Form 1+
AnyCubic Photon, Shining 3D EinScan-S & Atlas 3D scanners...
...and too much time on my hands.

14

Re: Upgraded Aluminum & Copper print bed

Yeah, there is actually two different bootloader version in use on atmega644's, one that runs at 38400, and one that runs at 57600. And then the hex values are different due to resonator vs crystal between boards etc etc.

The updated hex values I gave you are from solidoodles supposed firmware from 6 months ago, so therefore, should be spot on for a solidoodle delivered sanguinolu.

Anyway, never mind. I'm working on a far easier alternative to all of this - I'm not happy with how much effort everyone has to go to in order to achieve adjustment of a few relatively simple settings.

Stay tuned later tonight (australian time, so later today for the US and EU tongue )

15 (edited by adrian 2013-11-25 06:58:38)

Re: Upgraded Aluminum & Copper print bed

Oh, btw, when exactly did you get your SD3 ?
I'm wondering if you are one of the unfortunate peoples with a Sanguinolu that has no bootlader installed, just the firmware - meaning you have to load a bootloader or replace the firmware via an ISP programmer.

What length pause is there after you click 'connect' in RH - is it instant or is there a 2-3second 'pause' before it connects ?

16

Re: Upgraded Aluminum & Copper print bed

I had to go back through my posts, and it looks like I got the printer back on 4/9/2013.

There's a 3-4 second delay when I connect.

To print or, 3D print, that is the question...
SD3 printer w/too many mods,  Printrbot Simple Maker Ed.,  FormLabs Form 1+
AnyCubic Photon, Shining 3D EinScan-S & Atlas 3D scanners...
...and too much time on my hands.

17 (edited by adrian 2013-11-25 07:24:04)

Re: Upgraded Aluminum & Copper print bed

pirvan wrote:

I had to go back through my posts, and it looks like I got the printer back on 4/9/2013.

I believe the problem was solved by then - so cool.

pirvan wrote:

There's a 3-4 second delay when I connect.

This more or less says you have a bootloader - so this is good wink (the bootloader that 'waits' for a few seconds to see if it needs to load new firmware every time you reset the board. Connecting via serial causes a board reset... QED, the pause means the bootloader is running)...

This means its fixable without need for a programmer. Stay tuned! smile

18

Re: Upgraded Aluminum & Copper print bed

Waiting.....


BTW, thanks for all the help. smile

To print or, 3D print, that is the question...
SD3 printer w/too many mods,  Printrbot Simple Maker Ed.,  FormLabs Form 1+
AnyCubic Photon, Shining 3D EinScan-S & Atlas 3D scanners...
...and too much time on my hands.

19

Re: Upgraded Aluminum & Copper print bed

Ok - now - silly question too btw - You don't have RH connected to the printer when you try and upload? If you do - arduino won't be able to open the comport - I often make this error wink

Now - I haven't finished my greater wide community solution - but I have put something together that I'd be keen for you to test. I'll PM you the details.

20

Re: Upgraded Aluminum & Copper print bed

adrian wrote:

Ok - now - silly question too btw - You don't have RH connected to the printer when you try and upload? If you do - arduino won't be able to open the comport - I often make this error wink

Now - I haven't finished my greater wide community solution - but I have put something together that I'd be keen for you to test. I'll PM you the details.

NO, I did try it once just to see what kind of error I'd get and I got "COM port in use".

Anyway, check you PM.  I tried the app you sent me and it worked perfectly.

To print or, 3D print, that is the question...
SD3 printer w/too many mods,  Printrbot Simple Maker Ed.,  FormLabs Form 1+
AnyCubic Photon, Shining 3D EinScan-S & Atlas 3D scanners...
...and too much time on my hands.

21 (edited by adrian 2013-11-25 21:09:28)

Re: Upgraded Aluminum & Copper print bed

great stuff - I'll get the rest of the stuff together next day or so for the wider audience...

But at least for the moment you're up and running with the new firmware smile  Thanks for testing that smile

22

Re: Upgraded Aluminum & Copper print bed

adrian wrote:

great stuff - I'll get the rest of the stuff together next day or so for the wider audience...

But at least for the moment you're up and running with the new firmware smile  Thanks for testing that smile

No problem, thanks for all your help.

To print or, 3D print, that is the question...
SD3 printer w/too many mods,  Printrbot Simple Maker Ed.,  FormLabs Form 1+
AnyCubic Photon, Shining 3D EinScan-S & Atlas 3D scanners...
...and too much time on my hands.

23

Re: Upgraded Aluminum & Copper print bed

copper is a bi-metal which means its more prone to warping when heated/cooled also.

Solidoodle 2 with Deluxe kit cover & glass bed with heater. and 2nd board SD2 used not 3rd and alum platform not installed yet still wood. also need cooling fan installed to board. use Repetier Host couple vers. Slic3r also have all free ware STL programs

24

Re: Upgraded Aluminum & Copper print bed

n2ri wrote:

copper is a bi-metal which means its more prone to warping when heated/cooled also.

Copper is an element, not a bimetal in how I understand a bimetal. Not sure what you meant though?

25

Re: Upgraded Aluminum & Copper print bed

n2ri wrote:

copper is a bi-metal which means its more prone to warping when heated/cooled also.

Nope.