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Topic: My Large-Volume Multi-Function Printer Project

Decided to start a blog-thread on my full custom printer project.  I got a lot of good feedback and am now entering the design phase (but still open to suggestions/criticism).  I have the frame and main XY worked out (coreY with a reduction stage for higher precision when used in laser cutting mode).

http://www.soliforum.com/misc.php?action=pun_attachment&item=9128

Current plan is to drive with a Smoothieboard using 2 external stepper drivers for the XY (am using hi-torge steppers that will push the limits of those onboard).  Will, instead, use the onboard X&Y for additional extruders.  I modeled it with GT2 timing belts for now but will probably upsize (or double up) to improve speed/acceleration.  Platform will be supported on four ballscrews (not yet modeled).

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2 (edited by grob 2015-08-31 01:20:14)

Re: My Large-Volume Multi-Function Printer Project

Nice work! Looking forward to following this one!

That frame looks rigid as. I guess 8080 verticals and 8040 based on the NEMA17's for reference? Quite jealous of your palette of goodies!

Good use of supported linear rails. There'd be no point to that frame with regular rods!

The way you have the carriage with two bearings top and bottom may be a bit torsionally flexible (twist about long axis - Y?). Maybe consider eating up a bit of X-travel with a 3-bearing setup (2 top one bottom or vice versa).

Not sure what you're going to mount to those loops, but I reckon you're be better off just with a flat plate (ZX plane) on the front of the carriage that you can bolt your effector onto. Add locating pins or a similar feature to make attachments an accurate fit, and you might be good to have laser/FFF/engraver all-in-one.

Maybe pop your motors outside the interior volume, so they can run cooler (I expect if you print you'll want to keep the enclosure a bit warm). Either that or partition off that end for electronics etc.

I hope the four ballscrews came from the palette too. That sounds expensive!

SD3. Mk2b + glass, heated enclosure, GT2 belts, direct drive y shaft, linear bearings, bowden-feed E3D v5 w/ 0.9° stepper
Smoothieboard via Octoprint on RPi

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Re: My Large-Volume Multi-Function Printer Project

I never found any Aluminum extrusions for Solidworks, so I had to model them from scratch.  As for ball screws you probably won't find any either.

I modeled an Issoku 10-05, which is what I'll be using on my custom printer (should I ever get my act together and get it assembled).

Here is what it looks like

http://www.soliforum.com/misc.php?action=pun_attachment&item=9129

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To print or, 3D print, that is the question...
SD3 printer w/too many mods,  Printrbot Simple Maker Ed.,  FormLabs Form 1+
AnyCubic Photon, Shining 3D EinScan-S & Atlas 3D scanners...
...and too much time on my hands.

4 (edited by TickTock 2015-08-31 14:50:52)

Re: My Large-Volume Multi-Function Printer Project

Now I feel stupid.  I never thought to go online for pre-made models.  I'm sure at least the Nema23 steppers can be found.  I drew everything from scratch.  I did go online trying to figure out how to get the belt tool to understand coreXY.  It really doesn't like the multiple degrees of freedom and gets confused.  I can position the carriage and it draws the belts correctly but the pulleys don't turn properly (just kinda wiggle) . If I turn the steppers, the carriage moves erratically.  Haven't tried a motion study yet - maybe that'll work.  However, not really critical it work.  Just would be cool.  What I have is sufficient for my purposes (ensure everything fits and there are no collisions before ordering the parts).

I am considering replacing the large timing belts with 1/16 7x7 aircraft cable (instead of fishing line) so I can really take advantage of the rigidity of the frame and the torque of the stepper.  Anyone hear of anyone else attempting this.  I am thinking with the right choice of drive pulley material (edit: and employing the block and tackle trick for more grab), I can avoid slippage.

5 (edited by TickTock 2015-08-31 14:48:04)

Re: My Large-Volume Multi-Function Printer Project

grob wrote:

Nice work! Looking forward to following this one!

That frame looks rigid as. I guess 8080 verticals and 8040 based on the NEMA17's for reference? Quite jealous of your palette of goodies!

Good use of supported linear rails. There'd be no point to that frame with regular rods!

The way you have the carriage with two bearings top and bottom may be a bit torsionally flexible (twist about long axis - Y?). Maybe consider eating up a bit of X-travel with a 3-bearing setup (2 top one bottom or vice versa).

Not sure what you're going to mount to those loops, but I reckon you're be better off just with a flat plate (ZX plane) on the front of the carriage that you can bolt your effector onto. Add locating pins or a similar feature to make attachments an accurate fit, and you might be good to have laser/FFF/engraver all-in-one.

Maybe pop your motors outside the interior volume, so they can run cooler (I expect if you print you'll want to keep the enclosure a bit warm). Either that or partition off that end for electronics etc.

I hope the four ballscrews came from the palette too. That sounds expensive!

Thanks for the feedback.  I was trying to keep the carriage mass as low as possible so would rather not add a third bearing but your point is noted.  I suspect there will be some iteration and I may have to do what you suggest once I start cranking up the speed (which is the goal).  The loops were just a placeholder.  Something else will go there.  I like the flat XZ plate with locating pins idea.  That will really facilitate the Multi-Function aspect.

Good point on the motor cooling, too.  I really wanted to keep the motors inside the box - mainly for aesthetic reasons.  Maybe I'll add a mini-enclosure with vents near the motors and an exhaust fan in the middle.

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Re: My Large-Volume Multi-Function Printer Project

Your design looks very nice and sturdy! But there is still few things that I would do otherwise.

I'd go with three ball screws, because build platform would be kind of overconstrained with four of them. If one of those are for example 1mm higher than others it will just try to bend whole plate instead of tilting it. If you think three legged table vs. four legged table, three legged table have always every leg against ground while four legged lifts one slightly to air big_smile

And I would leave those aircraft cables. If you are going to move this thing with good stepper motors and extrenal drivers, I bet there will be no problems with for example steelwire reinforced T5 PU-timing belt!

Here is maybe helpful link for CAD-files: http://www.solidcomponents.com/default. … ageCode=44

7 (edited by grob 2015-09-01 06:08:36)

Re: My Large-Volume Multi-Function Printer Project

I notice you're using bigger-than-usual diameter pulleys (GT2 60T or so?). This is better for the belts, and spectra too. If you go with the wire idea you'll need big dia's also. The motor reduction will be necessary for precision rather than torque in this case...

You can base your resolution using the microsteps, but in the end the accuracy should use the motor's positional accuracy (typically +/-5%) times the whole-step distance: e.g. for 200 steps/rev into a GT2 20t, you get 0.2mm/wholestep * +/-5% = +/-0.01mm. IMO you could easily double this and not notice on a typical printer. In a large format you could go further, and sacrifice on-paper-accuracy for speed (using a bigger motor).

A 0.65Nm NEMA17 on a 20T 2mm GT2 pulley is already well over the recommended limits of the belts (Gates is pointing at closer to 80T required for this torque, even at low RPM). In the same setup, including a bit of preload, a 100lb spectra line would be used at well over the 0.3x load fishermen usually set their drag to. Given the wire has a breaking strength much higher than any of these (480lb), it might be an interesting idea to try...

e.g. a direct drive with a chunky 400 oz-in (2.85 Nm) NEMA23 stepper picks something like a 38T 3mm GT2 out of the gates catalog - assuming you're aiming for a max speed of 500mm/s. That's a max force on the belt of 157N (16kg) + preload, so quite appreciable even for the large pulley.

In brief, if you're planning on pumping up the motor torque above a typical NEMA17, it will likely push you into needing a beefier belt system to cope with it.

tooby has the right idea I think - given you've got big dia pulleys anyway, why not just go up to a larger belt module? 3mm GT2 at least (stick to round tooth profiles for backlash reasons)? Only issue is cost - they are a step up in price, mostly due to availability.

SD3. Mk2b + glass, heated enclosure, GT2 belts, direct drive y shaft, linear bearings, bowden-feed E3D v5 w/ 0.9° stepper
Smoothieboard via Octoprint on RPi

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Re: My Large-Volume Multi-Function Printer Project

Thanks, grob, for the tips and links.  Still digesting it all.  Seems like in addition to the target speed (I'd like to shoot for at least 500mm/s) I also need to figure out how much acceleration I need (plus the carriage mass which I get easily enough from Solidworks) to close the loop on stepper,pulley,belt selection.  I run my SD4 at 60mm/s and 1000mm/s^2.  It can go faster but at the cost of quality.  If I am 10X'ing the speed, I think I probably want to 10X the acceleration(i.e.torque), too.  Considering the heavier mass of the carriage, I suspect I am going to want a pretty hefty belt.  Time for a spreadsheet I think.

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Re: My Large-Volume Multi-Function Printer Project

TickTock wrote:

Time for a spreadsheet I think.

YES! smile

Start with your stepper torque - this flows through to everything.

Using this and the belt catalogue should get you to select an appropriate belt and pulley (this you need to iterate a bit until the pulley diameter, speed target, etc. settle).

Then the stepper torque and carriage/gantry masses should with a bit of Mr. Newton (F=ma) get you your max acceleration. I'd recommend allowing a margin here in reality.

Pick your max speed for print moves based on what the hotend can do in volume flow rate with typical settings.

Then you can look at some typical line lengths in a print (20-100mm say) and draw some trapezoidal curves with the chosen acceleration and max speed.

Note that at this point (prior to proper working extruder advance algorithms), the print quality on the accelerating part of the motion is poor, while it's most consistent on the constant-speed part of the curve. If you're accelerating for most of a path, it's going to be mostly messy.

You'll get some great quality prints by being able to turn up the acceleration (power and rigidity of the machine) while deliberately keeping the linear speed down (e.g. accepting longer print times, or by using a high-flow nozzle and big paths a la E3D volcano).

SD3. Mk2b + glass, heated enclosure, GT2 belts, direct drive y shaft, linear bearings, bowden-feed E3D v5 w/ 0.9° stepper
Smoothieboard via Octoprint on RPi

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Re: My Large-Volume Multi-Function Printer Project

A friend pointed me to this page:
http://www.geckodrive.com/support/step- … asics.html
It is an excellent explanation of stepper basics.

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Re: My Large-Volume Multi-Function Printer Project

grob wrote:
TickTock wrote:

Time for a spreadsheet I think.

Start with your stepper torque - this flows through to everything.

I have not purchased my stepper so this is what I need to figure out.  Here's my first stab at the computation:

  1. Compute the load on the drive belt given carriage mass and acceleration.

  2. Find appropriate belt and minimum drive gear diameter.  (See note1 below)

  3. Compute drive gear torque as a function of drive gear diameter.  (drive gear is the gear driving the main coreXY belts)

  4. Compute drive gear speed given drive gear diameter and target carriage speed.

  5. Compute minimum reduction ratio given required precision and drive gear diameter. (See note2 below)

  6. Compute minimum stepper torque given drive gear torque and reduction ratio

  7. Compute required stepper speed given drive gear speed and reduction ratio.

  8. Find suitable stepper given required torque and speed. Hopefully can hit this with <45V (max on the 8825 stepper drivers).

  • Note1: Not much point going larger since this forces an equivalent increase in the reduction ratio for constant precision so the stepper requirement doesn't change.

  • Note2: I can increase the gear ratio for more precision and acceleration, but this puts a strain on the stepper top speed (i.e. voltage).

  • Note3: I came across a web page that indicated that micro-stepping reduces a steppers available torque (to <10% for 16X micro stepping) so I guess I need to 10X the torque spec. (really?)

12 (edited by grob 2015-09-07 01:27:28)

Re: My Large-Volume Multi-Function Printer Project

Plan of attack sounds good. Go for it. smile

TickTock wrote:
  • Note3: I came across a web page that indicated that micro-stepping reduces a steppers available torque (to <10% for 16X micro stepping) so I guess I need to 10X the torque spec. (really?)

No you don't need 10x the torque haha!

These scary number are about the torque per microstep - note that steppers are like induction motors, and don't generate any torque unless the mechanical position is misaligned with the magnetic position (at least that's how I think of it...). And the torque is relative to the amount of misalignment. So it's like a magnetic spring between a true position (set by the motor currents) and the real position. The amount of torque generated by moving 6 steps at 16x microstepping and 96 steps at 256x microstepping is going to be practically identical (noting that the motors tend to prefer to be at whole-steps, so peak torque is found at these).

The comparisons that make these scary claims of "less than 10% torque omg" are comparing 6 steps at 16x with 6 steps at 256x, right? Which is a much much smaller distance!!

A 256x microstepping driver really does nothing to increase accuracy, as the following errors dominate:
* Build accuracy of the motor, which is typically +/- 5% one whole step
* Sinusoidal accuracy of the motor and detent torque (the motor by it's construction likes to align with whole-step positions, which is the clicking force you feel while turning it when it's off) distort the physical neutral position of the rotor for a given angle of perfectly sinusoidal currents in the coils (the motor usually likes to rest a bit closer to the nearest whole-step).
* The lag required to generate enough torque to overcome static friction in the system (if the friction is say, 50% of the motor's peak torque in a given config, then you might need 1/4-1/2 a step worth of lag just to get it moving, and it may stop this far behind the final position too).

The reason you use a high-microstepping drive is for smoothness, quietness of continuous movements. Given the above, anything above 16x doesn't actually increase positional accuracy.

As an aside note that for extruders, the 32x driver's smoothness reduces patterns on the extruded walls, as the moire effect is a highly sensitive symptom of variable extruder speed. When extruder motion is relatively slow, and the extruder has a little excess torque, the extruder jumps between microstep positions, causing a pulse each time. These become visible because oblique lighting exaggerates the tiny tiny difference in extrusion width. A low-volume direct extruder (e.g. E3D) will exaggerate as there's no much damping / spring between the drive and the nozzle. A spongey bowden will probably hide this completely! A high width/height ratio for perimeters (e.g. at low layer heights) will also exaggerate, as a proportional volume change contributes to a larger width change (height is fixed). Tuning the torque such that the motor under load jumps at more or less the same speed the steps are moving will create a more constant speed (and you'll hear it buzz less). Increasing the resolution of the steps (by going from 16x to 32x) reduces the torque for each jump, and along with the halving of the period, makes the effect less prominent.

This clarifies a little, but you have to read the text as well as look at the scary graphs haha:
http://www.micromo.com/microstepping-my … -realities

SD3. Mk2b + glass, heated enclosure, GT2 belts, direct drive y shaft, linear bearings, bowden-feed E3D v5 w/ 0.9° stepper
Smoothieboard via Octoprint on RPi

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Re: My Large-Volume Multi-Function Printer Project

Thanks for all the advice.  Here's what I came up with.  Give the relatively large carriage mass, the stepper torque requirements are coming in smaller than I expected and I can still use 2mm GT2.  I even increased the requirements to 20m/s2 accel and 1m/s speed.  Do these look sane?  I cannot find any errors in my math.

http://soliforum.com/i/?cAD0xcg.jpg

14 (edited by grob 2015-09-08 00:53:56)

Re: My Large-Volume Multi-Function Printer Project

Maths looks fine to me too! A couple of thoughts though:
* You are using two steppers for the gantry? You should probably divide the force by two right at the top of the calc to design a single side of the drive system.
* Max speed / max accel will be max power condition - maybe stick to this instead of using the half-speed working condition? The driver will try to change the step rate at the configured accel value even at top speed (there's a thought for firmware...), so may as well use this for the torque/power requirements.
* 1500 RPM is pretty quick for a stepper motor, particularly a 0.9 degree one. 0.75Nm is high for a NEMA17, quite OK for 23's (just the $$ at stake here haha). You'll need to be confident you can meet that step rate with the controller. Looks like you know the torque decreases with increasing speed - this is in a graph on good motor datasheets. This could become a sticking point, might require further iteration. And seems sane looking at this to consider a nice big drive voltage (36V?).
* You'll need an allowance for friction and unexpected/random loads - nearly impossible to work out in advance, but linear ball bearings and belt drives are actually pretty efficient, so maybe leaving 20% overhead will be fine. This could also encompass unexpected loads etc. Process loads (e.g. nozzle drag, engraving?) will happen at lower speeds generally, so you should have plenty of overhead for these already because of the stepper motor torque/speed curve.
* A 25mm PD pulley is about 40 2mm teeth - sounds alright, but have you checked this out against the catalog again to make sure it's an appropriate choice? You can then feed the exact PD back into the calc. From memory just needed power / shaft speed again, but pushes a correction factor back to the belt selection chart.
* Pulley selection for power/speed will also apply to the motor drive belt, you've got a few to iron out here! smile

SD3. Mk2b + glass, heated enclosure, GT2 belts, direct drive y shaft, linear bearings, bowden-feed E3D v5 w/ 0.9° stepper
Smoothieboard via Octoprint on RPi

15 (edited by TickTock 2015-09-09 20:53:23)

Re: My Large-Volume Multi-Function Printer Project

I think I found my stepper.  Meets the requirement at 24V.  Can later upgrade the PSU to up to 48V to get more speed or torque if the 30% design margin isn't enough or I think I can go faster (wouldn't that be nice :-)).  I have found them as low as $27 so very happy with that.

Regarding taking both steppers into account:  I think the w/c is when going on a 45 degree angle.  In this case, one motor is doing all the work.  If you neglect the mass of the Y carriage and assume the X carriage dominates (fairly reasonable assumption), then one stepper will only have to accelerate the majority of the mass to 70% of the full speed.  I am leaving that 30% for design margin.
http://soliforum.com/i/?Jn6vz7g.jpg

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Re: My Large-Volume Multi-Function Printer Project

Good thinking, forgot about the 45 degree thing. Me and my cartesian ways...
Makes sense. Sounds like this will be a good printer, I'm looking forward to your experiences and results - keen on a similar project myself (once I finish of a few other outstanding jobs haha)...

SD3. Mk2b + glass, heated enclosure, GT2 belts, direct drive y shaft, linear bearings, bowden-feed E3D v5 w/ 0.9° stepper
Smoothieboard via Octoprint on RPi

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Re: My Large-Volume Multi-Function Printer Project

I have decided to abandon using a timing belt for the XY.  Although the GT2 technically meets the requirement based on all the manufacturers recommendations, I am seeing vibration-related effects on my SD4 (ringing as it rounds sharp corners).  With all the extra mass and speed, I suspect that will become intolerable on this design.  Larger belts and pulleys are cost-prohibitive so I'm back to aircraft cables.  Turns out there are a lot of options here - some with very impressive bend radii (high strand count).  I don't like the block and tackle tensioning system so am going to try something new.  Going to fasten the cable too a drive spool like many have done with fishing line to avoid any slippage and use a 400 steps/turn stepper to meet the precision requirements.  Since the aircraft cable has a larger diameter than the fishing line the errors would be too high if I just mounted the spool vertically so I moved the drive spool to the bottom of the enclosure and use two more pulleys to turn the corner at the top.  By doing this, I minimize the errors caused by the cable spooling on and off.  Comes out to +/- .3mm as the carriage moves from one extreme to the next assuming a straight spool.  If I add a slight taper to the spool I can reduce this error to +/- .01mm which is well within my accuracy targets. The taper trick doesn't work with coreXY if I keep the motor vertical with the spool in plane with the rest of the pulley so adding that extra bend is key to eliminating this error.

I decided to turn all my own pulleys out of Delrin.  Each will have two grooves (only one will be used on a given pulley depending on the axis driving it).  This is to simplify the design and since I'm turning my own pulleys, it's not much harder to cut two grooves than one (will make a dedicated tool).  If a groove starts to wear out, I can just flip the pulley.

Here's the model so far.  I am having a very difficult time getting the cable modeled, though.  It is super easy to model belts/chains/cables in Solidoworks if that all lie in one plane like the original design.  Now that I have introduced a second plane it is giving me fits.

http://soliforum.com/i/?9oKnWsV.jpg

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Re: My Large-Volume Multi-Function Printer Project

Also want to mention that if you have a CNC lathe or other means to turn a complex profile, the error can be completely eliminated.  I don't and a simple taper is good enough.  Just wanted to formally document the idea here to block any future patent trolls.

19 (edited by grob 2015-10-12 04:16:03)

Re: My Large-Volume Multi-Function Printer Project

For the cable in SW - if you plan ahead it should be possible. I'd start by creating a bunch of datum axes in the assembly for the straight segments of the belts. You might need to create the odd point or plane to get them constrained. Ideally you want the paths to depend on the pulley geometry etc so the cable changes to match when you move/adjust the pulley positions.

Find a good starting point for the belt, make sure you've got a point and create a normal plane here.

Insert -> new component to create an in-context part, and select the base plane you created for this, and may as well draw the section of the cable in the automatic 2d sketch.

Insert a 3d sketch, and start drawing the belt path as straight lines. Constrain everything to the datum points you created in the assembly. Use sketch-fillet tool to create the radii around the pulleys. Hint: tab will change the orthogonal plane the sketch goes on. If you draw it onto an existing point, it can go out-of-plane too - so create the orthogonal stuff first. If in doubt, draw stuff in the air and add the contraints after. "along x" etc. are extremely useful.

It's usually easier and less laggy if you hide or suppress any parts that aren't relevant (e.g. leave only the pulleys and the construction lines).

Sweep and win. smile

I'd also keep the created part as an assembly-context saved part - it has no use outside the assembly, these attempts usually just break the links.

SD3. Mk2b + glass, heated enclosure, GT2 belts, direct drive y shaft, linear bearings, bowden-feed E3D v5 w/ 0.9° stepper
Smoothieboard via Octoprint on RPi

20

Re: My Large-Volume Multi-Function Printer Project

OK.  After a bit of a break (I recently changed jobs and got really busy) I am back at this.  Making good progress.   The green printed parts will eventually be replaced with CNC'd aluminum but I wanted to make sure everything worked first.http://soliforum.com/i/?0be4zRf.jpg

Here's the spool prototype (I really should have upped the poly count when I exported to STL for the print - but goot enough for testing):
http://soliforum.com/i/?TgRuik3.jpg

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Re: My Large-Volume Multi-Function Printer Project

A two year break !!! Good to see progress!!

Soliddoodle 4 stock w glass bed------Folger Tech Prusa 2020 upgraded to and titan /aero extruder mirror bed
FT5 with titan/ E3D Aero------MP mini select w glass bed
MP Utimate maker pro-W bondtech extruder
Marlin/Repetier Host/ Slic3r and Cura

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Re: My Large-Volume Multi-Function Printer Project

Tin Falcon wrote:

A two year break !!! Good to see progress!!

Sadly, that's how a lot of my projects go - too easily distracted. :-)
http://www.insightforums.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/dog-distracted-by-squirrel-.jpg