1

Topic: bed upgrade parts

In the interest to hopefully kill detaching once and for all, i am looking into upgrading the bed of my solidoodle 2.  Unfortunately all the links i've found from here/elsewhere for the parts seem dead.

Based on the old tutorials i believe i want a silicone mat and a SSR.  the SSR is not a problem,  the silicon mat is another matter.  Does anyone know of a place to source a mat?   I am located in the US and a domestic source would be preferrable.  Unfortunately, searching google isn't turning up much.

More background:

My SD2 has the wood platform with sanguinololu board.  I am willing to replace the metal platform , but not sure i want to go thorough effort of removing the wood platform or z motors.   If a flat/smooth heater mat is available, i think i would like try it on top of old metal platform first to see if that works well enough before going and reworking the entire thing.

I can't print PLA for the life of me.  The best theory i have at the moment is that since i have to print case wide open for PLA (else everything sags)  the centrally placed  power resistor is not heating the edges enough.  The print i did last night looks like cold plate printed ABS it is so warped (yes this is pla,  i bought 2 new spools from 2 vendors the last time i got into this (i have a few posts on here detailing my pains from about a year ago.  Blue tape does not work for me either.  i must live in a pocket universe where physics is different)

Thanks

2

Re: bed upgrade parts

You can go with a silicone mat or not .
try ebay  go with an american seller
lots of MK2 beds and silicone as well

Soliddoodle 4 stock w glass bed------Folger Tech Prusa 2020 upgraded to and titan /aero extruder mirror bed
FT5 with titan/ E3D Aero------MP mini select w glass bed
MP Utimate maker pro-W bondtech extruder
Marlin/Repetier Host/ Slic3r and Cura

3

Re: bed upgrade parts

The silicone heaters with the 3 holes for SD are all but nonexistent, I've gone thru 3 of them in the last 3 1/2 + years.  I've been trying to use a rigid PCB heater (ebay), so far it works OK, but mine takes forever to heat up using a 360W PS and a SSR. I am using Pirvan's method to mount the rigid PCB & glass -
http://www.soliforum.com/topic/6728/mk2 … -settings/
and it works well, if I could only get it to heat up in less that 30 - 35 min.   
I looked at my original antique SD heat bed and found their heat pad was only 125mm sq.  I have been looking on Ebay, and have found a ~120mm sq silicone heater with a thermistor and adhesive for ~20.00 from China, I may give a shot at. 
I printed PLA for over a year.  I could not get my stock SD to come up to the appropriate temps us use ABS.  After many mods, I can print with either (use that term 'Print" very loosely) 

Blue tape does not work for me either

I would seriously hope you are using glass and 'AquaNet" hairspray.  I have to pry my prints, both PLA & ABS, off the bed with a razor blase.

Ender 3 Pro

4

Re: bed upgrade parts

Ski52 wrote:

The silicone heaters with the 3 holes for SD are all but nonexistent, I've gone thru 3 of them in the last 3 1/2 + years.  I've been trying to use a rigid PCB heater (ebay), so far it works OK, but mine takes forever to heat up using a 360W PS and a SSR. I am using Pirvan's method to mount the rigid PCB & glass -
http://www.soliforum.com/topic/6728/mk2 … -settings/
and it works well, if I could only get it to heat up in less that 30 - 35 min.   
I looked at my original antique SD heat bed and found their heat pad was only 125mm sq.  I have been looking on Ebay, and have found a ~120mm sq silicone heater with a thermistor and adhesive for ~20.00 from China, I may give a shot at. 
I printed PLA for over a year.  I could not get my stock SD to come up to the appropriate temps us use ABS.  After many mods, I can print with either (use that term 'Print" very loosely) 

Blue tape does not work for me either

I would seriously hope you are using glass and 'AquaNet" hairspray.  I have to pry my prints, both PLA & ABS, off the bed with a razor blase.

If you are having to pry them off then you are not waiting for the bed and part to get back down to near room temp. If you did so you would hear the part literally pop loose and you could just lift it off the bed. I have done it this way with glass and hairspray for years with the same results every time. You might also check your first layer thickness. With the hairspray and glass it does not have to be as squished as with other methods.

Ideally it should be about half of your desired layer thickness. So if you are printing at .3 then your first layer aka bed clearance should be .15. If you are printing at .2 then set the bed for .10 and so on. This should give you a cool release with no need for a razor blade. The only thing I use a blade for is to get the skirt lifted enough on one corner that I can get a hold of it. it is only one layer thick so I can't get a grip on it without lifting it a bit with a blade. Often times it will just slip right off as well.

My printer has an LED ring around the dial that is blue at when all temps are below 53c. It turns red when ant temp is above 53c. I can usually lift a part off once the ring turns blue but a large or very flat part does take effort but no need for a blade. If I wait till the reported temps are back in the 23c range which is my average room temp the part will be just sitting there as if I placed it on the bed or set it anywhere else.

If you are in a rush and can't wait due to volume then it might be time to ask yourself if another machine is in order.

Printing since 2009 and still love it!
Anycubic 4MAX best $225 ever invested.
Voxelabs Proxima SLA. 6 inch 2k Mono LCD.
Anycubic Predator, massive Delta machine. 450 x 370 print envelope.

5

Re: bed upgrade parts

McMaster Carr for a 110v silicone pad the slides between your bed mounting bolts.  The aluminum will disribute the heat to the edges.  For your printer at least 300w would get you up to temp in less than a couple minutes.  Make sure you understand the risks before attempting this mod.

Printit Industries Model 8.10 fully enclosed CoreXY, Chamber heat
3-SD3's & a Workbench all fully enclosed, RH-Slic3r Win7pro, E3D V6, Volcano & Cyclops Hot End
SSR/500W AC Heated Glass Bed, Linear bearings on SS rods. Direct Drive Y-axis, BulldogXL
Thanks to all for your contributions

6

Re: bed upgrade parts

Ward - I really need to stay away from live open AC voltage on the back of my printer - I don't need to electrocute myself, my hair is already white.  BTW, when are you going to offer your heater in a 150mm sq format?

As far as heat times; with my old set-up, it may have been feasible to wait ~20 min to cool to ambient, then ~3 min to heat back up to 97.  With the new set-up, I have better things to do rather than wait 20 min to cool then 35+min to heat back up.  I have always removed the glass immediately after finishing the print and pop the print off - little hairspray - and back to printing.  5 min as opposed to ~an hour.  The numeric heat setting in RH is just a reference number now.  A setting of 88C gets me ~96C by dig thermometer. 

As far as first layer thickness, I have never measured.  I start with the thickness of a calling card and adjust for adhesion.  The settings in RH are - layer height .1976; first layer 0.3. 

I'm still learning.....

Ender 3 Pro

7

Re: bed upgrade parts

That's a great question, maybe AZERATE has an answer for you wink

Printit Industries Model 8.10 fully enclosed CoreXY, Chamber heat
3-SD3's & a Workbench all fully enclosed, RH-Slic3r Win7pro, E3D V6, Volcano & Cyclops Hot End
SSR/500W AC Heated Glass Bed, Linear bearings on SS rods. Direct Drive Y-axis, BulldogXL
Thanks to all for your contributions

8

Re: bed upgrade parts

Thanks all for the replies.   First off, i would like to put in my interest for the 150mm heater from printit.

WardJR:  i found this on your website:  https://www.printitindustries.com/produ … -8-heatbed

I presume this is what Ski52 was referring to when requesting a 150mm version.  I seem to remember you and AZERATE were running this site.  Sorry if I am remembering wrong.

This brings up a couple of new questions.. 

1:  Is there a 6" to 8" bed upgrade kit anywhere?   I have not yet searched this forum for that.  I will try to do that later and  link to what i find unless someone beats me to it.

2:  the heat time is similar to my stock heater after i tweaked the voltage.  I guess what i'm buying here is even heating?  or could i expect even faster heat times assuming the hypothetical 150mm version becomes available?


Ski52:
i have used everything.  the most reliable, and ironically the most effort is kapton on glass.   I have to acetone wipe it right before printing and sometimes i have to pry things off...when they stick.  i still get lifted corners frequently. For what it matters, i've gotten applying the tape onto glass down to a science.  basically lots of soapy water, a good squeegee (i use one that came iwth invisishield screen protector) and a steady hand.   well lubed with the soap water you can butt the edges of the tape together with zero gap and zero overlap.  it takes a light touch but doable.

Second on list is gluestick on glass. I tend to use this most of the time now.  I cannot get the surface even though so i still use kapton when i need the slick finished surface.  I tend to lose about 25% of the prints on gluestick.  Also i seem to have to keep applying more glue which eventually requires me stripping the glass.

In this iteration of 3d printing, i am trying aquanet on glass.  The "quick squirt and print" method never worked for me.  This time i an getting decent success with a multicoat "base".  Basically I washed the glass thoroughly and then i sprayed the glass lightly (so there is a pebbled look without any pooling) and dried it completely with a heat gun.   Repeat about 5 times.  Give it a good solid spray ..maybe double what i was doing for first 5 coats... and drying.  repeat about another 3-4 times.   switch back to "pebbled" spray.  repeat twice.

All and all the process took me about 10-15 minutes with the heat gun.  My theory is the first light coats give a tight even bond to the glass as well as provides a texture for the heavy coats to seep into to prevent pooling.   the last light coats were an after thought because i thought maybe there was some mechanical adhesion involved that might  be helped.    So far i've printed 4 things on this glass and lost 2 of them.   My printer has been in storage for better part of year and ive not yet tweaked it back into shape...so it is hard to tell if this helps.

Also, i use glass attached to stock metal platform with binder clips (3/4" ones i think?).  I have about 10 sheets of glass treated in various ways (cost me a total of $6 i think.. i just kept poking through scrap drawer at local lowes).   When i get into "full production mode"  i can swap the glass in about 30 seconds and start the next print.  I sit the hot glass on by desktop and by the time i've started next print the objects have self separated from the glass (when I'm not using kapton of course). 




Disclaimer:  aquanet is very flammable.  Going at it with a heat gun is probably not the sanest of activities.  A hair-drier on low heat is probably safer.  Just waiting 10 minutes or so for it to dry is probably best.  My hairdrier is too noisy though and im impatient so i figured a flash fire or two was worth the risk. smile

9

Re: bed upgrade parts

maaltan wrote:

Thanks all for the replies.   First off, i would like to put in my interest for the 150mm heater from printit.

WardJR:  i found this on your website:  https://www.printitindustries.com/produ … -8-heatbed

I presume this is what Ski52 was referring to when requesting a 150mm version.  I seem to remember you and AZERATE were running this site.  Sorry if I am remembering wrong.

This brings up a couple of new questions.. 

1:  Is there a 6" to 8" bed upgrade kit anywhere?   I have not yet searched this forum for that.  I will try to do that later and  link to what i find unless someone beats me to it.

2:  the heat time is similar to my stock heater after i tweaked the voltage.  I guess what i'm buying here is even heating?  or could i expect even faster heat times assuming the hypothetical 150mm version becomes available?


Ski52:
i have used everything.  the most reliable, and ironically the most effort is kapton on glass.   I have to acetone wipe it right before printing and sometimes i have to pry things off...when they stick.  i still get lifted corners frequently. For what it matters, i've gotten applying the tape onto glass down to a science.  basically lots of soapy water, a good squeegee (i use one that came iwth invisishield screen protector) and a steady hand.   well lubed with the soap water you can butt the edges of the tape together with zero gap and zero overlap.  it takes a light touch but doable.

Second on list is gluestick on glass. I tend to use this most of the time now.  I cannot get the surface even though so i still use kapton when i need the slick finished surface.  I tend to lose about 25% of the prints on gluestick.  Also i seem to have to keep applying more glue which eventually requires me stripping the glass.

In this iteration of 3d printing, i am trying aquanet on glass.  The "quick squirt and print" method never worked for me.  This time i an getting decent success with a multicoat "base".  Basically I washed the glass thoroughly and then i sprayed the glass lightly (so there is a pebbled look without any pooling) and dried it completely with a heat gun.   Repeat about 5 times.  Give it a good solid spray ..maybe double what i was doing for first 5 coats... and drying.  repeat about another 3-4 times.   switch back to "pebbled" spray.  repeat twice.

All and all the process took me about 10-15 minutes with the heat gun.  My theory is the first light coats give a tight even bond to the glass as well as provides a texture for the heavy coats to seep into to prevent pooling.   the last light coats were an after thought because i thought maybe there was some mechanical adhesion involved that might  be helped.    So far i've printed 4 things on this glass and lost 2 of them.   My printer has been in storage for better part of year and ive not yet tweaked it back into shape...so it is hard to tell if this helps.

Also, i use glass attached to stock metal platform with binder clips (3/4" ones i think?).  I have about 10 sheets of glass treated in various ways (cost me a total of $6 i think.. i just kept poking through scrap drawer at local lowes).   When i get into "full production mode"  i can swap the glass in about 30 seconds and start the next print.  I sit the hot glass on by desktop and by the time i've started next print the objects have self separated from the glass (when I'm not using kapton of course). 




Disclaimer:  aquanet is very flammable.  Going at it with a heat gun is probably not the sanest of activities.  A hair-drier on low heat is probably safer.  Just waiting 10 minutes or so for it to dry is probably best.  My hairdrier is too noisy though and im impatient so i figured a flash fire or two was worth the risk. smile


For the hairspray on the first application you need to make sure your glass is clean and I do mean clean. Then one even coat of hairspray. The spray will dry while the bed heats. If you do not have a heated bed, then you should not be using hairspray.

You should only then need to reapply the hairspray after about 5 or so prints or if the printer sits for a while and dust gets on the bed. At that point it would be better to clean well and reapply fresh. If you are still having sticking issues or removal issue when everything is cool then you need to check your bed level and gap between the bed and nozzle. The old business card is too thick and there is no magic number for all situations. The best and easiest rule is to get a set of feeler gauges so you can set your gap at half your desired print layer. EX: if you are printing at .20 layer height then your gap should be .10 and if printing at .30 then your gap should be .15 as measured on all four corners and middle by the feeler gauges.

Printing since 2009 and still love it!
Anycubic 4MAX best $225 ever invested.
Voxelabs Proxima SLA. 6 inch 2k Mono LCD.
Anycubic Predator, massive Delta machine. 450 x 370 print envelope.

10

Re: bed upgrade parts

Hypothetically speaking of course.
1. Very even heat distribution
2. 25c-105c in roughly 5 minutes.

Printit Industries Model 8.10 fully enclosed CoreXY, Chamber heat
3-SD3's & a Workbench all fully enclosed, RH-Slic3r Win7pro, E3D V6, Volcano & Cyclops Hot End
SSR/500W AC Heated Glass Bed, Linear bearings on SS rods. Direct Drive Y-axis, BulldogXL
Thanks to all for your contributions

11

Re: bed upgrade parts

Maaltan - I have been thinking the same about 6 -> 8" upgrade.  From eyeball looks - don't look like it will fit.  I plan on cutting a piece of rigid cardboard or something to 8"sq and seeing if it will somehow fit.  I know the left side has very little room.  If it can fit, I know you can move the centering of the extruder with commands - move the end switch somehow... and it just might work.  Food for thought.
The lengthy heat problem I have may have a solution.  I e-mailed 3dheatbeds, the folks I bought the PCB from with the heat times.  Their ad says - heats to ~100C in minutes.  I told him the PCB works great - even heat- good prints... just the 35 min to get to the 90's heat range.  He e-mailed me back very quickly and offered to send me another PCB to see if this one is faulty.  I have an e-mail in the works to the effect - I am quite content with the end result, just the time to get there.  If he has something that may heat quicker...  I'll give it a shot.  3dheatbeds +++ so far.
With all the stuff you've tried, I believe your problem lies in the first layer, follow Carl's suggestions.  Mess with the settings for leveling and first layer, frustrating, but keep at it... 
Like Carl sez - the key to the glass is CLEAN then spritz it with AquaNet, put it on the bed and heat it up.  Some folks here spritz the bottom of the glass - after 3 or 4 heat cycles, you don't need the clips, but you can't remove the glass after every print.
Lotta different ways to solve the problems...
Keep trying
Ski

Ender 3 Pro

12

Re: bed upgrade parts

Something interesting.... last night i noticed my bed was really far away from the wood platform .. like 3"4 or more.   This afternoon i went and screwed it all the way down and releveled.  unfortunately my z stop bracket was too low (i think i installed a mod a while back to allow for glass..cant remember.) I brought it back to level which put the final height about 3/8 inch from platform.   

I don't know if all that matters but it "feels" more solid.

something more interesting maybe....

I adjusted the z-home-ed nozzle at a tight .102mm (according to feeler gauge).  I printed a level test (4 square thing) and it was level.  but the print thickness of 1 layer at .3mm was actually .54 mm.    So ..the math kind of works out of .1mm + .3mm.   

This is sometghing i have never really been clear about. ...
Do i z-home then send a .3mm command to printer before leveling?  if i do that the nozzle collides horribly with the glass after zhoming.  Is there a checkbox somewhere I'm missing to tell the slicer to print first layer at 0mm(although in slic3r i see the first layer i could set it to 0 ..or 0.0001 or something if it wont accept zero).     Could this be the root of all my adhesion problems??

13

Re: bed upgrade parts

You make your home setting so the nozzle is paper close to the bed.  Then using a feeler gauge and moving  x and y by hand to all 4 corners and the middle of the bed. Using a feeler gauge that is half the height you want to print at, check the clearance.  Use the adjusters on the bed to close or open the gap if needed. That should set your home correctly until you knock it of adjustment by trying to temove a print too aggressively.

Printing since 2009 and still love it!
Anycubic 4MAX best $225 ever invested.
Voxelabs Proxima SLA. 6 inch 2k Mono LCD.
Anycubic Predator, massive Delta machine. 450 x 370 print envelope.

14 (edited by maaltan 2017-05-31 01:14:07)

Re: bed upgrade parts

oops .  2-3 leaves were actually stuck together on my feeler.  Now the math makes sense.  I reset my home to .063 mm (for real this time. verified with micrometer)     of the 2-3 "sheets of paper" i had nearby this was closest the average thickness.  a single .3mm layer is now is now about .36mm.

Sorry Carl,  there still seems to be the same step that is always missing...

  • You make your home setting so the nozzle is paper close to the bed.

    • check... .063mm

  • ...... ummm .. something missing?  am i suppose to move the z axis? or something

  • Then using a feeler gauge and moving  x and y by hand to all 4 corners and the middle of the bed. Using a feeler gauge that is half the height you want to print at, check the clearance.

    • yep ... still .063mm at each point.

.063+.3 = roughly the .36mm now getting for first layer.  If i need a final first layer thickness of .15mm (half .3mm) i need to calibrate the nozzle .15mm below the surface of bed??

edit -fixed math.. i hope
edit2 - more fixes...bah .. if it doesn't look right divide by 10 smile

15

Re: bed upgrade parts

maaltan wrote:

oops .  2-3 leaves were actually stuck together on my feeler.  Now the math makes sense.  I reset my home to .063 mm (for real this time. verified with micrometer)     of the 2-3 "sheets of paper" i had nearby this was closest the average thickness.  a single .3mm layer is now is now about .36mm.

Sorry Carl,  there still seems to be the same step that is always missing...

  • You make your home setting so the nozzle is paper close to the bed.

    • check... .063mm

  • ...... ummm .. something missing?  am i suppose to move the z axis? or something

  • Then using a feeler gauge and moving  x and y by hand to all 4 corners and the middle of the bed. Using a feeler gauge that is half the height you want to print at, check the clearance.

    • yep ... still .063mm at each point.

.063+.3 = roughly the .36mm now getting for first layer.  If i need a final first layer thickness of .15mm (half .3mm) i need to calibrate the nozzle .15mm below the surface of bed??

edit -fixed math.. i hope
edit2 - more fixes...bah .. if it doesn't look right divide by 10 smile


Does your bed not have adjusters that allow you to level it? Those same adjusters are used to close the gap down or open once the software Z is set to paper close.

Printing since 2009 and still love it!
Anycubic 4MAX best $225 ever invested.
Voxelabs Proxima SLA. 6 inch 2k Mono LCD.
Anycubic Predator, massive Delta machine. 450 x 370 print envelope.

16

Re: bed upgrade parts

yes.  so you mean:
1.  set z-stop to sheet of paper thick (.063mm in my case)
2.  level bed by lowering it with adjustment screws (?!) to .15mm?

That would leave a first layer gap of about .45mm when sliced which i know doesn't stick well.

By leveling at .063mm, the last 2 prints i did did not detach from hairspray, but they were also relatively flat and were printed in ABS.

BTW. 
In slic3r,  The first layer thickness seems to be used in extrusion volume calculations as well.  setting it to .0001 resulted in no plastic being extruded.

Sorry if I am being pedantic or obtuse, but i still do not understand how to make my printer create a .15mm first layer while extruding a .3mm layer worth of plastic without adjusting nozzle below surface of plate.  The first command out of my slicer is always "raise z <firstlayer thickness>"  (which is inverted somewhere so the platform is lowered)

17 (edited by carl_m1968 2017-06-01 17:33:48)

Re: bed upgrade parts

maaltan wrote:

yes.  so you mean:
1.  set z-stop to sheet of paper thick (.063mm in my case)
2.  level bed by lowering it with adjustment screws (?!) to .15mm?

That would leave a first layer gap of about .45mm when sliced which i know doesn't stick well.

By leveling at .063mm, the last 2 prints i did did not detach from hairspray, but they were also relatively flat and were printed in ABS.

BTW. 
In slic3r,  The first layer thickness seems to be used in extrusion volume calculations as well.  setting it to .0001 resulted in no plastic being extruded.

Sorry if I am being pedantic or obtuse, but i still do not understand how to make my printer create a .15mm first layer while extruding a .3mm layer worth of plastic without adjusting nozzle below surface of plate.  The first command out of my slicer is always "raise z <firstlayer thickness>"  (which is inverted somewhere so the platform is lowered)

I think your first confusion lies in understanding g-code. G-code was designed by machinist for managing automated tooling. In that respect all commands relate to the tool movement, in the case of printers, the head and NOT the bed.

Although in some printers the bed is what moves you have to imagine based on g-code that it is the head moving. So if your bed is moving done it is actually the head is moving up in respect to the g-code commands.

Now keeping this in mind, see if this guide I made for XYZ users makes things easier. It applies to all machines for the most part. Also you should not have a first layer height of any kind set in your slicer. That should be set for default or zero depending on your slicer.

http://www.soliforum.com/topic/8408/bed … beginners/

The only thing that should be in your start g-code is maybe an offset to get the head to be paper thickness above the plate. which is fine.  Of course there are other setting for temps, speeds, and movement.

You then use the adjusters and the method in the guide with a gauge to get the gap to the thickness of the gauge. If you understand what I explained about g-code then the command you are talking about is not raising the Z, but lowering it.

If that value is not close enough to the bed then just reduce it by .1 or .01 depending on closeness until it is with in the range we desire. If it is too close to the bed then just increase the value by .1 or .01. This is in your start g-code, not the setting in slicer for first layer thickness. That setting should be the same as all other layers. The idea is to the idea is to have the gap smaller than .3 so is squishes the first layer out a bit wider than the rest of the layers. That's where you get your adhesion from.

Printing since 2009 and still love it!
Anycubic 4MAX best $225 ever invested.
Voxelabs Proxima SLA. 6 inch 2k Mono LCD.
Anycubic Predator, massive Delta machine. 450 x 370 print envelope.

18

Re: bed upgrade parts

Also you should not have a first layer height of any kind set in your slicer.

Ok that was the missing step.  Unfortunately slic3r uses that value to calculate volume it seems.   When I set it to 0 no plastic comes out.  I do think i might have finally found success with a trick

First off i trashed my old solidoodle profiles and started over.  i copied a few things over i knew worked well (bridging volume and speed for example) but most of it i took the defaults slic3r suggested. 

the profile i created was for .3mm layers.   Here is the trick:.  i set the first layer to .087..  (.15mm - .063mm "home")  Then i set the extrusion width for first layer to about 290%.  The theory is that the sliced first layer would put the head at .15mm above glass, but extrude 3mm worth of plastic.  after a little more tweaking and a final first layer extrusion width the final value was around 310% i am getting glass smooth first layers using a light spray of aquanet.  So far I've got about 6 prints on  this profile and no detaches or lifted corners with ABS.  A problem is it doesn't seems to use the extrusion width when printing the skirt so it is really really thin.  in fact it almost permanently bonds with the glass/hairspray it is so thin.

Of course ABS has always been "easy"  I hope to try some pla this weekend and see how much of this translates.