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Topic: Questions about 3d printing and solidoodle from newbie

Hello guys,
I know that it could be annoying to explain for newbies all the time the same things, but I would be very happy if you make clear to me some things about 3d print...
I have an idea for business with 3d printing, but I just get into all this and sure there are so many details that I even can't know at this moment, so.. I will read about 3d printing and so on, but could you give me some ideas and advice for better decisions for me?
My newbie questions:

1) is it possible to try business with those: Solidoodle 3D Printer2nd Generation or 3rd ?
2) what is major difference between them?
3) how long time takes printing in real life? It would be very, very nice if you give me some example links with model parameters and printing time.. (need to know optimal printing parameters and possibilities for potential printing business..)
4) what cheaper solutions can you advice for real life object scanning for further that object printing with solidoodle or other 3d printer?

You can also give a link if there are answers to my questions...
Thanks in advance.

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Re: Questions about 3d printing and solidoodle from newbie

1) yes, but you'd need multiple printers to be able to faithfully meet any commercial arrangements you enter into. And a battery of spare parts
2) Nothing besides Build Size, as long as you are excluding the base-model-SD2, which has no heated bed. Solidoodle also do not carry an 'official' enclosure for the SD3 as yet (if ever) - but its a simple thing to make your own
3) I think a lot longer than you are expecting. The Filament Deposition Method (FDM) of printing prints small .1 to .4mm layers a layer at a time... Most prints of anything other than very small items takes anywhere from 1 to multiple hours (for 200mm models, printed at .2mm, its not at all unreasonable to expect a 12-14 hour print). Lets call the 'average' 2hours+... but anything reasonably sized (100mms+) could be 8, 10, 12, 14.....
You can work this out yourself by simply installing some printing software, such as Repetier-Host, and then slicing the models - it will provide a print-time estimate for you and how much filament will be required.. these are about 95% accurate...
4) For a commercial service - there is no concept of 'cheaper' - you can use Kinect's or Structure Light Scanning (SLS) - but both these solutions require a lot of work after the scan and are between $500-$5000.. and I'm pretty sure aren't going to work the way you probably want them to ....  There is no 'cheap' 3D Photocopier that you just press a green button on and it spits out a working model... sorry sad

I suggest you head to your nearest Hackerspace in your area, some are listed on http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/ but its by no means exhaustive. 9 out of 10 hackerspaces will have a 3D Printer or someone will have access to one.  This is probably your best starting point as I suspect there is a perhaps a big gap between concept and what can be realistically achieved today at reasonable prices...

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Re: Questions about 3d printing and solidoodle from newbie

To add to what adrian says, today's 3D printers are also quite finicky creatures and require a lot of fixing, adjusting, calibrating, rebuilding, and modifications.  You wouldn't go wrong to compare the state of the industry to that of HAM radio in the early 20th century, when people mostly were building their own radios from kits, or the home computer industry in the 1970s, long before the advent of the TRS-80 or Commodore 64, when people were soldering their own memory boards.  Sure, there are 3D printers that can do commercial-quality stuff with commercial reliability, if you're prepared to invest hundreds of thousand, just like in 1930 you could build an AM radio station, or in 1975 you could buy an IBM mainframe.  Could you run a business on a hobbyist's $800 printer?  Maybe, but you'd have to put in huge amounts of time, start with some great technical expertise, and it would have to be a very small business.  Like maybe an etsy shop.

I'd also advise you to consider what a 3D printed item, made by such a printer, can and can't be.  It can't be anything that depends on a lot of structural strength, because best-case prints are like 30% of the strength of injection-molded plastic.  It can't be anything that depends on very fine detail unless you're prepared to invest another huge amount of time, both in learning how to do good prints, and in the aftercare of your prints (filing, cutting away supports, acetone vapor bathing, etc.).

Finally, you're never going to beat anyone else on price for the things you print if what you're printing is already available from manufacturers.  You can beat on price in three specific areas only.  Customized items; items traditionally made from expensive materials but where plastic would do (e.g., costume jewelry); and items that replace something that isn't sold separately (like replacement parts), whenever the structural strength and detail issues aren't prohibitive.

I think there's a niche in there for small businesses making very customized things of high value but low volume, but it's a small niche and has a high investment to get into.  This isn't a gold rush.

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Re: Questions about 3d printing and solidoodle from newbie

Thanks for your expanded answers.
First idea is to make face scans for newlie married couples and so on. Then make nice 3D prints.
Also to make some original shape details, maybe logical "games".
And third sector could be private orders, for example - students from art academy with their projects and similar..

So I have some more questions now..

5) what you think about this for 3d scanning: skanect.manctl.com/download/ ? Seems not so complicated.
6) are there other 3d printer manufacturers with better printers that solidoodle at same price?
adrian, please, explain your sencence, i didnt understand what you wanted to say.. " as long as you are excluding the base-model-SD2, which has no heated bed. Solidoodle also do not carry an 'official' enclosure for the SD3 as yet (if ever) - but its a simple thing to make your own"
7) what about spare parts? are they specific and must be send from manufacturer or can be repaired from here? how often such printer need to be repaired approximately..?

P.s. I am engineer, and also know Solidwoks good, so maybe it won't be so hard with technical aspects.. smile
And if you could tell me where is gold rush.. huh. smile

5 (edited by adrian 2013-07-08 15:59:18)

Re: Questions about 3d printing and solidoodle from newbie

5) Skanect still requires a *lot* of post processing to make prints of what you want... have a read of http://fabbaloo.com/blog/2012/9/6/hands … anect.html for example. Basically - it captures a scene - not a 'model' . It wont just spit out a 3D Printable file.  This is where the 'kiosk' or 'walk in store' concept falls apart - you'd need to scan people, then spend 30-60 minutes cleaning up the file and extracting your model, cleaning that model (another 30 mins), then getting it sliced and printed (anywhere from 2-15 hours...) And if you want reasonably detail in the printed models, you can't really do anything more than .25mm layers.. which means it will definately take a long time to print.  Basically - if we took basic labor rates - you are already looking at something that is going to 'cost' you about $120-300 of your 'time' (i'm assuming you consider yourself above minimum wage wink ). Means its going to get awfully tight on any margins you could obtain...

For example, heres the image from the blog:
http://fabbaloo.com/storage/skanect%20window.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1346278895233

Thats going to take a LOT of work to clean up, and its not 'high detail' still - its probably 5mm resolution at best...
So its not a 'drop in, I'll have it ready by the afternoon' solution by any means.

Heres an actual 'walk-through'.. http://www.threedeemedia.org/KinectMeshlab.html .. thats a lot of work ! smile

6) Not at the same price. You are probably coming at this from the wrong angle. You are essentially asking 'how can I offer a luxury car hire service - but using a Chevy Nova.....' .  Have a look at the quality produced by the likes of Shapeways.com .. They have a product people pay them for, and the printers they use start at $25,000 ... and use Laser Sintering not FDM - hence their models are smooth and not jagged like on any FDM printer usually.

7) most of its available elsewhere.. but again - the bigger issue I see is One printer will produce you one set newlywed busts every day... maybe 2. And thats assuming its busy printing 24 hours a day. To do it at a pace that would be reasonable if you want to charge money for it - you'll need 4 or 5 of them going at once... Or you need to tell people that there is a 5-7 day turn around... at which point they may as well go to Shapeways.com and get a higher quality print in the same period of time.

If you're an engineer - and money is an issue - then I'd probably look to build a few Prusa i3's using friends to print the printable parts and then buy the cheapest and nastiest electronics you can find on aliexpress.com .... but get 4 sets of them 'cause you'll probably need them.

And as for my sentence - umm.. it means pretty much what it means wink The base-entry-level-SD2 is $499, but it does not have a heated build platform which is more or less considered mandatory for successful repeatable ABS prints (again - speaking commercially - you can't exactly tell someone after 5 days of waiting for their 1 day print that you still can't get it to print without warping and ruining the print). All other models of SD2 are identical to the SD3 except for the Build Size - SD2 is 150x150x150 and SD3 is 200x200x200 (6" vs 8"). There is also an allmetal enclosure available for the SD2 with a clear door.. this enclosure is not available for the larger SD3 so most people build their own... These are the only differences between the printers, and I stated them to be completely accurate instead of just saying 'yeah, their the same besides build area' smile

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Re: Questions about 3d printing and solidoodle from newbie

Check out this post. I did basically what I beleive you want to do. This was for my daughter's wedding. http://www.soliforum.com/post/26236/#p26236 I used a Kinect Scanner, Reconstructme, netFabb, and meshlab to get an accpetable print. There is a great tutorial on Youtube that walks you through the process. Adrian is correct in the length of time needed to print a high quality print. Scanning took several attempts to get it right (a few minutes each time, plus the conversion process), cleanup took about an hour. After you practice a little, you could probably get it down to a half hour. My finished product was about 3 to 3 1/2" (80-90mm) high. I printed at .1mm resolution and it took roughly 7 hours per print. I then handed the prints off to an artist to finish and paint. If you are painting the models you will probably have to smooth them even at .1mm. She used a dremel to smooth them then paint. I would approximate another day or so for each piece.

If you want the piece smooth for printing, I would instead recommend a smoothing station like others have used in this forum. It will produce a smooth finish without using the dremel. the issue then becomes the loss of detail. I will have to experiment with that method since I have all the equipment. All in all, the total hours involved per piece were about 26 hours. Also keep in mind that the printers are not perfect yet. You may have some failed prints along the way. Just setting it and forgetting it may cause unpredictable results. I threw a few failed prints away in the process.

If I were to sell the pieces, I would probably ask somewhere between $100-$125 USD each considering the time involved and uniqueness of the items. The reconstructme/Kinect combination is not perfect. Once you figure out how to make the combination work with your computer, it is still buggy. It would crash in the middle of the scan or just not capture it completely. In a business environment, you might look bad if you software kept failing. I also found that this combination works best if the scanner is stationary and the object is moved around. This means to produce better scans, you should consider placing the person/object on a turntable to get the best results.

SD2
E3D V6
MK5 V6

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Re: Questions about 3d printing and solidoodle from newbie

Well, I've decided to buy solidoodle 2 pro model. What can you advice for filament? There comes standart 1.75mm 2lbs ABS filament from solidoodle online shop, is it good enough? And if we want to use PLA filament, then what shop could you advice?
And what about 3mm filament, what dis/advantages does it have comparing with 1.75.., what is the difference?
Something else to know before buying this printer with such filament?