1 (edited by widespreaddeadhead 2015-03-27 14:36:17)

Topic: Fill Issues

Still having fill issues. I have our circle calibration pretty well set but we're still having issues with fill not being complete. Any suggestions as to what I can to to get this printing better? I did the extruder and thickness calibrations when we first received our Workbench, but would it be worth it to do them again? Also, maybe this is related, our honeycomb infill is not shaped as well as it should be. I can post a pic of that later, but I'm more concerned with the fill atm.

Settings:

Layer: 0.4
First layer: 0.42

solid layers
top: 2
bottom: 2

Extrusion Width
everything @ 0.48 except,
Top Solid Infill: 0.21
Support Material: 0.25

Filament:
Diameter: 1.68
Extrusion Multiplier: 0.75

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2

Re: Fill Issues

In my experience using a .40 nozzle it is difficult to achieve nice results with a layer height of .4.
In your case you need to mask the results of what appears to be plenty of backlash and play in the mechanical side of things.
The first thing I would try is .3 layer heights even for your first layer.
Instead of entering .3 use these numbers instead.
.3=.2963
.2=.1976
.1=.09878

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3 (edited by jagowilson 2015-03-27 14:56:35)

Re: Fill Issues

In general you shouldn't let your layer height exceed 80% of the nozzle diameter..3 (.2963) is pretty much maximum for a .4 nozzle.

4 (edited by widespreaddeadhead 2015-03-27 15:40:13)

Re: Fill Issues

I noticed those numbers on the other thread and thought that might apply to me. I'm only an amateur with 3d printing, so I'm googling backlash right now to understand exactly what it is and what and if there is anything I can do about it. I'll run the print with the new settings too and see if that helps. Thanks for the quick response!

Edit: I found a printable model for anti backlash that has a nice picture show the problem. Check it out here, I wonder if this would work on the Workbench... http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:56916

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5

Re: Fill Issues

Backlash can exist on all axis.  For the Z just put a 5/16th well nut on the rod like this.
http://i.imgur.com/71tbpke.jpg
That is not what is causing your issues.  It is the backlash of the Y-axis mostly and then the X-axis.  This is caused by any play or slop in the mechanical system including your belts.

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6

Re: Fill Issues

Why is your extrusion multiplier so low?

7

Re: Fill Issues

w_smith wrote:

Why is your extrusion multiplier so low?

Improper steps per mm most likely

8

Re: Fill Issues

w_smith wrote:

Why is your extrusion multiplier so low?

That's just what I found to use after the flow rate calibration... Should I run through it again?

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9

Re: Fill Issues

you need to calibrate steps per mm for each extruder.

10 (edited by widespreaddeadhead 2015-03-27 16:42:35)

Re: Fill Issues

jagowilson wrote:

you need to calibrate steps per mm for each extruder.

So if I only calibrated one would that cause an issue? I calibrated the first extruder and asked in an older thread and someone said when I changed the steps per mm it would change it for both, was I just given bad info?

So I'm running a print with the new layer and first layer settings, do I need to change the extrusion widths under the advance settings also? (Running Slic3r)

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11

Re: Fill Issues

no that's correct. how many steps did you arrive at?

12

Re: Fill Issues

105

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13

Re: Fill Issues

Also, after checking the file a little bit better, the lettering is supposed to have spacing, it's the top fill on the grey I'm concerned about.

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14

Re: Fill Issues

widespreaddeadhead wrote:

Also, after checking the file a little bit better, the lettering is supposed to have spacing, it's the top fill on the grey I'm concerned about.

It's the fill on the gray that we are concerned about also.  Mostly caused by backlash in you y axis.  You could mask some of it by decreasing your extrusion width's. That isn't the solution to the problem but will help close things up some. 
Try printing the same thing with 100% infill and post some pictures throughout the print along with a final photo.  This will provide a lot of usefull information.

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15 (edited by grob 2015-03-29 23:15:28)

Re: Fill Issues

I'd recommend reducing your layer height to .2-.3mm, recalibrating wall thickness (see whether the extrusion multiplier changes...), and print again.

It looks like the filament is being pulled through the middle part of the move, and like taffy on a hook it's getting thinner in the middle and leaving gaps. The slow bits at the end where the extrusion has time to catch up look fine. I think thinner layers will help a fair bit, as both the squish into the previous layer will be improved, and the volume through the extruder will decrease.

I had some quite good results with top solid layers by reducing the width to 50-60% of the normal perimeter width under advanced settings in slic3r. You end up with the tool paths much closer together, and it works like a pad weld. If you've still got trouble with the top and need a more aesthetic result, try this and see how it goes!

Also, if your cad program has a 'quality' setting on the STL export, or a 'curve segments' or 'segment size' (they all do this differently, sigh...) I'd recommend increasing it a bit. I can see the segments in the outside of the oval (there's only about 24 there!), a few more would make it look less digital. smile

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16 (edited by widespreaddeadhead 2015-03-30 13:40:10)

Re: Fill Issues

I had to leave right when I started the 100% infill so I can print another one today and observe and take pics if I need to. Here is the finished item:

http://soliforum.com/i/?w0gUkxn.jpg

Maybe this is also part of the problem, this is how our honeycomb infill looks...

http://soliforum.com/i/?urkk1N8.jpg



grob wrote:

I'd recommend reducing your layer height to .2-.3mm, recalibrating wall thickness (see whether the extrusion multiplier changes...), and print again.

It looks like the filament is being pulled through the middle part of the move, and like taffy on a hook it's getting thinner in the middle and leaving gaps. The slow bits at the end where the extrusion has time to catch up look fine. I think thinner layers will help a fair bit, as both the squish into the previous layer will be improved, and the volume through the extruder will decrease.

I had some quite good results with top solid layers by reducing the width to 50-60% of the normal perimeter width under advanced settings in slic3r. You end up with the tool paths much closer together, and it works like a pad weld. If you've still got trouble with the top and need a more aesthetic result, try this and see how it goes!

Also, if your cad program has a 'quality' setting on the STL export, or a 'curve segments' or 'segment size' (they all do this differently, sigh...) I'd recommend increasing it a bit. I can see the segments in the outside of the oval (there's only about 24 there!), a few more would make it look less digital. smile

Thanks for the info! I'll recalibrate today and try the extrusion widths, as this is basically just a test piece in our school colors with our logo on it. As for my design, is use SketchUp to model so that is just the default circle segment value.

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17

Re: Fill Issues

widespreaddeadhead wrote:

Still having fill issues. I have our circle calibration pretty well set but we're still having issues with fill not being complete. Any suggestions as to what I can to to get this printing better? I did the extruder and thickness calibrations when we first received our Workbench, but would it be worth it to do them again? Also, maybe this is related, our honeycomb infill is not shaped as well as it should be. I can post a pic of that later, but I'm more concerned with the fill atm.

Settings:

Layer: 0.4
First layer: 0.42

solid layers
top: 2
bottom: 2

Extrusion Width
everything @ 0.48 except,
Top Solid Infill: 0.21
Support Material: 0.25

Filament:
Diameter: 1.68
Extrusion Multiplier: 0.75

umm, I am no expert by any means, but, thinking this (red, bold above) might be a good share of your problem with the top fill layer?

I am running an SD4 and my slic3r settings for an 0.3 layer height are:

Layer (height): 0.2963 (as per recommended by others here)
first layer: 0.35 (i think this is a default setting?)

Solid layers
top: between 2 & 4 - changes depending on what I am printing
bottom: between 2 & 4 - changes depending on what I am printing

Extrusion width: 0.48
First layer: 110% (experimented with this one to get good tight fill without overfilling (ridges) on first layer)
everything else left at default settings.

Filament settings (assuming your filament diameter is measured?)
diameter: 1.74 (measured average)
Extrusion multiplier: 0.81 (calculated out to 0.79 with E steps/mm set at 105.75 for exactly 100mm, but in print reality it was terrible)

I am getting excellent fill coverage on all layers now, and generally much better prints overall. used to have fill and other issues, but all have been pretty much resolved with proper calibrations using the advice found in these forums.  smile

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18

Re: Fill Issues

@madkow007 Please remember that an extrusion width setting is determining the tool path.  So for this particular print the gray area is not necessarily considered a top layer as the outer rim is raised.  This would mean that a change to the infill extrusion width or %infill is where the error exists.  This is why I suggest printing this at 100% infill.  Notice how tight the top layer of the outer rim is?  That's what reducing an extrusion width will accomplish.  The other option if you don't want it to be 100% infill is count the number of layers the outer rim is and use that + 1 for top layers.  Make sense?

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19 (edited by grob 2015-03-31 00:40:28)

Re: Fill Issues

wardjr wrote:

@madkow007 Please remember that an extrusion width setting is determining the tool path.  So for this particular print the gray area is not necessarily considered a top layer as the outer rim is raised.  This would mean that a change to the infill extrusion width or %infill is where the error exists.  This is why I suggest printing this at 100% infill.  Notice how tight the top layer of the outer rim is?  That's what reducing an extrusion width will accomplish.  The other option if you don't want it to be 100% infill is count the number of layers the outer rim is and use that + 1 for top layers.  Make sense?

I think the grey is top solid, I don't see how that surface could be infill. slic3r is clever enough to work it out, otherwise I'm not sure it would manage anything much more complicated than a box hehe. Also, the rim looks like all perimeters (he's got enough to make up the whole thing) so there's no top-solid shown there, nor will there be any infill inside that.

The bottom of the cup doesn't look like 0.21mm-wide paths - this narrow width for top-solid is what I do for flat topped things every now and then, should produce lots of fine lines and merge quite nicely.

A few extra top-solid layers might help with the density? 2 is a bit light-on. Try 4 as madkow suggests?

I'm seeing something like this:
http://www.soliforum.com/misc.php?action=pun_attachment&item=8433&download=0

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20

Re: Fill Issues

Yeah the more I think about it your diagram would be correct.  But then the question becomes why are the perimeters so nice?  I'd like to see the .stl and have a crack at slicing that.  Something here just doesn't add up.

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21

Re: Fill Issues

I have poured over the photos several times at this point.  I still want to see the 100% infill photos but something else is bugging me here.  The inconsistancy of that top layer is leading me to think your filament is not feeding properly.  Verify that the drive gear is not full of filament dust and that it can feed from the roll easily.  Watch the drive gear closely and make sure it isn't slipping.  What temps are you running?

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22

Re: Fill Issues

Looks almost like his filament is experiencing a lot of resistance near the front of the machine a assuming that's printed orientation.

23 (edited by widespreaddeadhead 2015-03-31 13:19:13)

Re: Fill Issues

Wow, thanks for all the replies. Our Workbench definitely wouldn't be where it is now without everyones help so far. I'll get the pics of the 100% infill right when I can get the bed to heat up. I posted the 2 .stl so you can have a look at them. We're running 215C for ABS. I'm feeding some filament through checking the gears right meow.

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24 (edited by widespreaddeadhead 2015-03-31 13:57:00)

Re: Fill Issues

Here is a picture of the gears. As far as I could tell they weren't slipping or anything that didn't look normal to me. Little bit of dust on top of the thing where the filament enters, but not inside on the gears. Still trying to get the bed to warm, then 100% infill.
http://soliforum.com/i/?bzp1v3s.jpg

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25

Re: Fill Issues

Alright here are the pics I managed to get.

http://soliforum.com/i/?slTGWbW.jpg

http://soliforum.com/i/?ko9SivX.jpg

http://soliforum.com/i/?wfOMkVj.jpg

http://soliforum.com/i/?I1nc9Zg.jpg

http://soliforum.com/i/?Cku6dxQ.jpg

http://soliforum.com/i/?hsROuKs.jpg

http://soliforum.com/i/?ccWWnWG.jpg

http://soliforum.com/i/?r3n8qxe.jpg

http://soliforum.com/i/?ICqk3sl.jpg

http://soliforum.com/i/?fRMvJDc.jpg

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