1

Topic: Too much troubleshooting

This is mostly to vent, and entirely my fault-

I was trying to do the Y axis alignment from the Solidoodle video, but couldn't because one of the pulleys was stuck due to a stripped set screw.  I figured I would go ahead and drill the screw and replace it with a screw from one of the front pulleys which doesn't need it.  Turned out that the pulleys that don't need set screws don't have them.  So I am down a pulley and the printer is sidelined until Solidoodle can get me a new one, which they did pretty quick.

I got the pulley put in, and everything aligned as well as I think I can get it.  I'm was excited that I can finally start printing parts to make the spool winder to go with the Filastruder.  While I was waiting for the bed to heat up, I smelled something burning.  Apparently something shorted on the Azteeg controller because it wouldn't appear as anything other than Unknown Device on any computer, even after wiping the PC to factory default and reloading the drivers.

I still have my old Sanguinololu.  I upgraded to the Azteeg because the Sanguino melted its power terminal and I couldn't get it off.  I have a better solder station now, and I was able to remove the melted terminal block and replace it with a new one from Frys.  I wired everything up to the Sanguinololu, but the endstops were reversed, being active when the switch wasn't pressed.  I tried reversing them in firmware, but it never seemd to make a difference, and finally I had to rewire all three of them to make them behave right.

I was finally ready to make a print, but it wasn't extruding right, there were a lot of gaps, but no skipped steps from the extruder.  I saw that the bearing would stop turning even though the gear was still pushing some filament through.  Turned out the bearing was rubbing against the Jigsaw Replacement mount in a couple of spots when the tension was put on.  I used a dremel to ground down a couple of areas that were interfering with the bearing and it tracked with the gear much better.

It still started skipping when doing a print.  It was looking like 220 was a little cool for the filament since I could see tooth marks in the filament extruded into the air.  I turned it up to 230 (This is with a J-HEAD) and got a maxtemp warning at 230.    I had set the MAXTEMP much higher in the firmware, but it didn't seem to make a difference.  Then I realized that even though it said "Done Uploading" in Arduino, it really hadn't because I didn't move the avrdude.conf when reloading Arduino.  That also explained why I couldn't fix the endstops in firmware, so of course when I did get the firmware to upload they were set the wrong way. 

I could finally heat to 230, but as soon as I started printing it kept losing power which points to a bad connection somewhere.  Using the multimeter I found a break in one of the wires leading from the hot end connector to the board.  I cut, soldered and shrinkwrapped it, which restored the connection.  However I still couldn't get power, and tracked down another break in the connection between the resistor leg of the JHead and the wire that leads to the connector.  I had half-assed it with just solder and shrink tubing, without putting a crimp on for stability.  I redid it with the crimp, but had to work with it mounted to the extruder because I couldn't heat it enough to get the filament out.

I finally have the printer running again after several nights of freezing my ass off in the garage until midnight.  I've learned a lot since getting a printer, though maybe only enough to be dangerous.  Still I'm pretty confident in my ability to troubleshoot most issues at this point.

2

Re: Too much troubleshooting

The wires between the board and the extruder is really becoming an issue which I am not sure how to address. I have had to replace every wire from the bundle at this point. I asked Solidoodle if they could offer replacement wires and it sounded like a pretty adamant no. I kind of understand them not wanting to offer those, however there seems like there must be something around a 6 month life on the bundle. The tough part is that the wires are heated and bent past right angles maybe 10s of thousands of times?  I don't mind the solution being replacing the bundle every few months, but if that's the case, I wish it were offered. My experience is, once they started going, they all went within about a month. I've been out of commission far more than printing for the last month and a half. I may try a terminal block with 6 wires and a strain relief mount on the carriage so that if any of them goes it would be easy to just swap out the whole thing.

3

Re: Too much troubleshooting

I know exactly your feeling of chasing one problem after another.

After not printing for a week or so, but having the printer work faultlessly for a month or so before that, I ran into some trouble:

1. The bed would not raise past a certain height. The z stepper was simply spinning on the spot, and pushing the platform down slightly gave it enough purchase to move properly. Eventually I found that removing the anti backlash hack fixed it, and now I don't have it on as tight.

The lead screw and stepper seem to just sit against each other and rely on friction which troublesome at times.

2. The bed and extruder heaters where playing up as covered in my other thread. The 1284P was fried (but only in this one way) so I've put back in the 644P. Waiting on another 1284P from the UK, but at least I can print.

3. The idler arm keeps twisting sideways and missing the filament. When I printed the mk3 extruder replacement and drilled the mounting hole, I must have made it too big because it wobbles and has too much play. Several failed prints from that.

4. After a few days of messy prints and slow extruder heating, I've just discovered why. The calibration for my machine were stored on the removed 1284P's EEPROM, so my initial extruder calibrations and PID settings for my replacement hot end are gone. Now I'll have to retest and set those values.

Dramas like ours makes you appreciate when everything is printing smoothly and reliably.

4

Re: Too much troubleshooting

jooshs wrote:

The wires between the board and the extruder is really becoming an issue which I am not sure how to address. I have had to replace every wire from the bundle at this point. I asked Solidoodle if they could offer replacement wires and it sounded like a pretty adamant no. I kind of understand them not wanting to offer those, however there seems like there must be something around a 6 month life on the bundle. The tough part is that the wires are heated and bent past right angles maybe 10s of thousands of times?  I don't mind the solution being replacing the bundle every few months, but if that's the case, I wish it were offered. My experience is, once they started going, they all went within about a month. I've been out of commission far more than printing for the last month and a half. I may try a terminal block with 6 wires and a strain relief mount on the carriage so that if any of them goes it would be easy to just swap out the whole thing.

The connectors they use are crap. In the interest of keeping costs down, no soldering or crimping is done. You can understand their reasons but I too have had to rewire the thermistor and heater completely from the electronics to the hot end. By the way they both failed one after each other in the same night, that was a late one.

5 (edited by jefferysanders 2013-01-19 23:14:13)

Re: Too much troubleshooting

You speak nothing but the truth for sure, I know personally the constant repairs and learning how to solve and perform each related task is time consuming...it surely set back several of the projects I had intended for this machine.   I'm not sure which idler-arm you have, but I know I have to use the one I made because of alignment and issues printing the mk3 version.

6

Re: Too much troubleshooting

Does anyone have recommendations for connectors, or best practices?  That's a weak spot for me, I mostly have used what I have on hand which are the locking connectors mostly used by fans.  That is not ideal for the hot end and thermistor, but I don't know enough about connectors to know what to look for, or what any of them are called.

7 (edited by elmoret 2013-01-19 23:55:26)

Re: Too much troubleshooting

I feel your pain.

I came home to a 4 hour print that stopped after about an hour, because the filament snapped. I'd been using a piece of acrylic right on top of the steel frame, and the 90 degree turn was too much for the filament. It cooked in the nozzle for 3 hours until I got home, which surprisingly didn't clog immediately, but a hour or so later.

I swapped nozzles to clear the clog, but I did it with the Solidoodle power up, so I had the white LED lights. This ended up being a poor choice, as the +12v side of the hotend is always powered even if the extruder is off in software. I ended up shorting +12v into the 5v bus, which seems to have fried the ADCs on the 644 - they read very close to the same temperatures, 37deg on the hotend, 92 deg on the bed.

So, I've ordered a new Sanguinololu, with AVR chip, as I didn't want to roll the dice with other parts of the board being possibly damaged.

I just want it to work reliably!

8

Re: Too much troubleshooting

IanJohnson wrote:

Does anyone have recommendations for connectors, or best practices?  That's a weak spot for me, I mostly have used what I have on hand which are the locking connectors mostly used by fans.  That is not ideal for the hot end and thermistor, but I don't know enough about connectors to know what to look for, or what any of them are called.

I like these:

http://www.pololu.com/catalog/category/65

For a simple solution. I use one on my qu-bd hotend. 20+ hours of printing, no issues.

9

Re: Too much troubleshooting

Should have ordered an Azteeg x1.  Equivalent to the Sanguinololu, but you can control a fan on it without hacking up a mosfet.

10

Re: Too much troubleshooting

IanJohnson wrote:

Should have ordered an Azteeg x1.  Equivalent to the Sanguinololu, but you can control a fan on it without hacking up a mosfet.


thats kinda a bad word here "hacking", we kind purchased a SD to print models not hack it all the time.

11

Re: Too much troubleshooting

True, but there are some very useful features they left out which could be vital depending on what you print.  If you are doing small, detailed things like figurines, you aren't going to get very good results without a gcode-controlled fan.

12

Re: Too much troubleshooting

You're probably right. The only ones I saw in stock were $75+ shipping, which is $15 more than the Sanguinololu. I was just being cheap.

13

Re: Too much troubleshooting

I've been using the same wires as Tim. I've had one fail since adding them. I do like them a good bit more though. For Quadcopters they make some 6 pin connectors with the same terminals kind of like to servo extensions side by side  which would be great. I just haven't found any long enough. I would like to mount that connection and heat shrink it to keep it secure.

14 (edited by jefferysanders 2013-01-20 03:54:38)

Re: Too much troubleshooting

I got my cable in from McMaster http://www.mcmaster.com/#flexible-wire/=l40n4a ..I got 18x10 which is serious overkill...next time I will get 20 or 22 gauge...There are a ton of good conectors, but none are used on the SD2 LOL. http://www.meritline.com/xt60-male-fema … PAodnG0AHg are strong, cheap, and easy to work with.

15 (edited by jooshs 2013-01-20 04:05:14)

Re: Too much troubleshooting

jefferysanders wrote:

I got my cable in from McMaster http://www.mcmaster.com/#flexible-wire/=l40n4a ..I got 18x10 which is serious overkill...next time I will get 20 or 22 gauge...There are a ton of good conectors, but none are used on the SD2 LOL. http://www.meritline.com/xt60-male-fema … PAodnG0AHg are strong, cheap, and easy to work with.

I must have 500 rc connectors sitting around and thought about the bullets, deans, or xt. They all seem like serious overkill which is why I would like to use one or two long servo extensions. The connectors are crap no doubt, but I think the wiring bundle is just as big if not a bigger issue.  Jeffery have ever tried any of these high flex wires?  I think I may try some thicker gauge also, but with teflon or PFA shrink wrap around the bundle. Supposedly it is still flexible, but maybe slick enough I won't have as many issues with it shredding on the case and catching on the belt. The bundle is still going to be at a sharp angle frequently any way you look at it without bringing it in over the top and having an accordion ceiling.

16

Re: Too much troubleshooting

jooshs wrote:

I've been using the same wires as Tim. I've had one fail since adding them.


How'd it fail?

17

Re: Too much troubleshooting

Tesla wrote:

... ... we kind purchased a SD to print models not hack... ...

that's why I'm not hacking it.  It prints adequately for my applications.  But I really do think the hackers among us are a great help, and to them, thanks for your efforts  ;-)


As for wire, I recently had a extruder heater line go open at the bend just before it's taped to the stepper.  Quick solder and shrink, and back in business.

Thinking about finding a suitable replacement on hand, looking for recommendations.

18

Re: Too much troubleshooting

IanJohnson wrote:

This is mostly to vent, and entirely my fault-

I was trying to do the Y axis alignment from the Solidoodle video, but couldn't because one of the pulleys was stuck due to a stripped set screw.  I figured I would go ahead and drill the screw and replace it with a screw from one of the front pulleys which doesn't need it.  Turned out that the pulleys that don't need set screws don't have them.  So I am down a pulley and the printer is sidelined until Solidoodle can get me a new one, which they did pretty quick.

I got the pulley put in, and everything aligned as well as I think I can get it.  I'm was excited that I can finally start printing parts to make the spool winder to go with the Filastruder.  While I was waiting for the bed to heat up, I smelled something burning.  Apparently something shorted on the Azteeg controller because it wouldn't appear as anything other than Unknown Device on any computer, even after wiping the PC to factory default and reloading the drivers.

I still have my old Sanguinololu.  I upgraded to the Azteeg because the Sanguino melted its power terminal and I couldn't get it off.  I have a better solder station now, and I was able to remove the melted terminal block and replace it with a new one from Frys.  I wired everything up to the Sanguinololu, but the endstops were reversed, being active when the switch wasn't pressed.  I tried reversing them in firmware, but it never seemd to make a difference, and finally I had to rewire all three of them to make them behave right.

I was finally ready to make a print, but it wasn't extruding right, there were a lot of gaps, but no skipped steps from the extruder.  I saw that the bearing would stop turning even though the gear was still pushing some filament through.  Turned out the bearing was rubbing against the Jigsaw Replacement mount in a couple of spots when the tension was put on.  I used a dremel to ground down a couple of areas that were interfering with the bearing and it tracked with the gear much better.

It still started skipping when doing a print.  It was looking like 220 was a little cool for the filament since I could see tooth marks in the filament extruded into the air.  I turned it up to 230 (This is with a J-HEAD) and got a maxtemp warning at 230.    I had set the MAXTEMP much higher in the firmware, but it didn't seem to make a difference.  Then I realized that even though it said "Done Uploading" in Arduino, it really hadn't because I didn't move the avrdude.conf when reloading Arduino.  That also explained why I couldn't fix the endstops in firmware, so of course when I did get the firmware to upload they were set the wrong way. 

I could finally heat to 230, but as soon as I started printing it kept losing power which points to a bad connection somewhere.  Using the multimeter I found a break in one of the wires leading from the hot end connector to the board.  I cut, soldered and shrinkwrapped it, which restored the connection.  However I still couldn't get power, and tracked down another break in the connection between the resistor leg of the JHead and the wire that leads to the connector.  I had half-assed it with just solder and shrink tubing, without putting a crimp on for stability.  I redid it with the crimp, but had to work with it mounted to the extruder because I couldn't heat it enough to get the filament out.

I finally have the printer running again after several nights of freezing my ass off in the garage until midnight.  I've learned a lot since getting a printer, though maybe only enough to be dangerous.  Still I'm pretty confident in my ability to troubleshoot most issues at this point.

Sorry you're having so much trouble! Frankly we're amazed at the skills that you have all developed working with the machine. While it definitely stinks that some of you have had to go through this, this thread is very good information for us. It gives us some very solid evidence for improving the machine. I hope you understand that we are improving the machine day by day. While you are right to think that some compromises were made for cost, we are working daily to make sure that are fewer compromises and far more brilliant engineering solutions.

Josh -
We are always looking for new items for the store, but sometimes we have to make compromises. Sometimes we worry that folks will use Solidoodle parts to make their own kits, or might mistakenly think that we are a kit company. While it may be hard for super users to imagine, some folks are very confused about what we do at all. Sometimes extra parts can confuse this issue. We've had our fair share of folks pasting Kapton tape on to acrylic beds. That said, the spare parts sell very well, and we can take a look into providing some extra ones in the store. The next part slated for the store is the power supply.

If you guys have any specific questions about repairs, future projects, or just about anything else don't be afraid to ask!

Regards,
John

Former Solidoodle employee, no longer associated with the company.

19

Re: Too much troubleshooting

Elmoret...  The wire failed halfway between the back and the extruder...  However, at the time, I was in a rush and didn't put the replacement wire into the bundle, so I wasn't shocked to find it failing...  I am still pretty convinced that I will continue to use the jumpers. I use them for so many applications and have constantly been surprised by their performance. This is what I think I will try.

https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10376

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8044/8398839568_744698c21f.jpg


John, as I said, I understand not wanting to offer the replacement parts for everything in the store. Just as this forum continues to be diluted by the same half dozen questions being asked over and over, I can only imagine the Solidoodle support backlog of the same issue repeatedly being asked. I am pretty convinced it would be invaluable if a pdf manual of first steps, descriptions of printer parts, major things to avoid, common troubleshooting, and then a set of instructions on mods from most necessary to completely optional. If this was created, the wait for the printer could be eased, and then very novice or hackers alike could read and then reference the manuals s be much more comfortable by the time their printer came. It would increase the productive discussion here, push forward interesting developments, save support time, etc....

20

Re: Too much troubleshooting

That's why I went with the very high quality CNC cable for the carriage wiring...If this cable breaks...the world is probably over anyway...I need to post a picture of this stuff...no doubt it is used in tanks, etc....

21

Re: Too much troubleshooting

jooshs wrote:

Elmoret...  The wire failed halfway between the back and the extruder...  However, at the time, I was in a rush and didn't put the replacement wire into the bundle, so I wasn't shocked to find it failing...  I am still pretty convinced that I will continue to use the jumpers. I use them for so many applications and have constantly been surprised by their performance. This is what I think I will try.

https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10376

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8044/8398839568_744698c21f.jpg


John, as I said, I understand not wanting to offer the replacement parts for everything in the store. Just as this forum continues to be diluted by the same half dozen questions being asked over and over, I can only imagine the Solidoodle support backlog of the same issue repeatedly being asked. I am pretty convinced it would be invaluable if a pdf manual of first steps, descriptions of printer parts, major things to avoid, common troubleshooting, and then a set of instructions on mods from most necessary to completely optional. If this was created, the wait for the printer could be eased, and then very novice or hackers alike could read and then reference the manuals s be much more comfortable by the time their printer came. It would increase the productive discussion here, push forward interesting developments, save support time, etc....

We are working on some documentation at wiki.solidoodle.com. This will start to form the core of what you'd call the manual. As you might imagine, printing out physical manuals can be expensive over time, but it is something that has been on our mind, as a large number of users have a hard time finding on line support.
It has been slow going, as things move fast here at Solidoodle, and few of us have hours that can be dedicated to writing. The videos have been our attempt to stem the tide of tech support requests (over basic issues at least.) We are also working on public friendly technical drawing, and refinements to our print communications.

That said, we're open to suggestions.

Regards,
John

Former Solidoodle employee, no longer associated with the company.

22

Re: Too much troubleshooting

Ian, have you found out what happened with your Azteeg?  Anything to avoid?  Any new suggestions to make the process easier?  After a pretty thorough rewiring and overhaul, I am going to do the upgrade over the next few days and attempt the Bowden.  Just want to make sure there isn't something that is easy to miss.

23 (edited by Irish 2013-01-21 01:54:26)

Re: Too much troubleshooting

Fellas, you need to post links to these second source websites. Some did, THANKS. It would help the rest of us to rather than having to search by part name. If the wires are twisted wire rather than solid they should be able to take the flexing for a lot longer than being indicated.

24

Re: Too much troubleshooting

Irish wrote:

Fellas, you need to post links to these second source websites.

Who didn't?

25 (edited by elmoret 2013-01-21 02:52:17)

Re: Too much troubleshooting

elmoret wrote:

I feel your pain.

I came home to a 4 hour print that stopped after about an hour, because the filament snapped. I'd been using a piece of acrylic right on top of the steel frame, and the 90 degree turn was too much for the filament. It cooked in the nozzle for 3 hours until I got home, which surprisingly didn't clog immediately, but a hour or so later.

I swapped nozzles to clear the clog, but I did it with the Solidoodle power up, so I had the white LED lights. This ended up being a poor choice, as the +12v side of the hotend is always powered even if the extruder is off in software. I ended up shorting +12v into the 5v bus, which seems to have fried the ADCs on the 644 - they read very close to the same temperatures, 37deg on the hotend, 92 deg on the bed.

So, I've ordered a new Sanguinololu, with AVR chip, as I didn't want to roll the dice with other parts of the board being possibly damaged.

I just want it to work reliably!

Fixed this without a new AVR, by piping the A6 and A7 pins to the A0 and A1 pins, and making the requisite changes in pins.h, then updating firmware. I had (incorrectly) assumed that if two channels were reading incorrectly, that the whole port (all channels) were fried, since I (correctly) assumed they used a single ADC with a mux block. I did not realize that the failure could be in the mux block, only destroying two channels, instead of all of them. That led me to desolder the filtering capacitor on the extruder thermister, thinking (incorrectly) that it had failed. Finally, I realized the failure was in the mux block internal to the ATMega, and did this:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1786359/Photo%20Jan%2020%2C%209%2021%2027%20PM.jpg
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1786359/Photo%20Jan%2020%2C%209%2024%2008%20PM.jpg