1 Topic by w_smith (edited by w_smith 2015-05-01 23:30:43)

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Topic: Calibrated for cube with 0.48 wall, now solids look like sieves

So I'm printing off calibration cubes (50mm cube with 3 bottom layers, no top layers, 1 perimeter) on my SD4 with E3DV6 hot-end, and I'm pretty close to 0.48mm width on all sides of the cube.

But the solid layers of my prints look like sieves:

http://geekho.com/push/UnderExtruding.jpg

Clearly I'm doing something wrong, but what?

I originally had all Extrusion Width settings in Slic3r set to 0.48, and tried setting them to 0 (default) to no avail.

Layer height is 0.2mm, if that matters.

Thanks!

2 Reply by carl_m1968

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Re: Calibrated for cube with 0.48 wall, now solids look like sieves

If that is just your first layer, let it print several more layers. Your bed could be too low and you are not getting the proper squish. The next layer should get the proper squish and fill in properly. I'm going by the pic, if you have printed multiple layers already and they all look like this then you do have an issue. Ideally you want your layer to be about half its height. The first layer could even be a third for better adhesion.

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3 Reply by w_smith

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Re: Calibrated for cube with 0.48 wall, now solids look like sieves

Additional layers look the same (though in the other diagonal), which makes the whole thing look like a sieve.

4 Reply by AZERATE

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Re: Calibrated for cube with 0.48 wall, now solids look like sieves

You need to adjust your bed height.

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5 Reply by carl_m1968

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Re: Calibrated for cube with 0.48 wall, now solids look like sieves

AZERATE wrote:

You need to adjust your bed height.

If the next layer also looks the same I'm not sure it would be a bed height thing.

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6 Reply by jagowilson (edited by jagowilson 2015-05-02 01:12:35)

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Re: Calibrated for cube with 0.48 wall, now solids look like sieves

Looks like a pretty common bed height issue to me. You are printing too far away and/or under extruding. Adjust the z stop until the first layer makes a nice flat ribbon. What is your extrusion multiplier, filament diameter, and steps per mm on e?

If the first layer lacks squish, the following layers will also. The z stop sets the constant point from which the bed moves down, so if it's too far away to start at say c, it will still be too far away at 0.3mm + c

7 Reply by carl_m1968 (edited by carl_m1968 2015-05-02 03:16:33)

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Re: Calibrated for cube with 0.48 wall, now solids look like sieves

I was looking back at your settings in the first post and found what could be the issue but I would expect it to have the opposite affect.
First let me ask when you calibrated for a .48 wall did you use a .3 layer thickness? The .48 is based on the assumption you are using a .3 layer.

If you used another layer thickness then your wall should be 60% more than that layer. So at a .2 layer your wall should be .32 or there about.

When you calibrate your bed height there is no real magic number that is good for all. Ideally your bed should be calibrated so that your first layer is roughly half of your desired layer height. Usuall around .15 to .20mm should work for most heights unless you use a .5 nozzle then you would need to move to .25 on your clearance. I use real feeler gauges when I calibrate my beds.

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8 Reply by carl_m1968

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Re: Calibrated for cube with 0.48 wall, now solids look like sieves

jagowilson wrote:

Looks like a pretty common bed height issue to me. You are printing too far away and/or under extruding. Adjust the z stop until the first layer makes a nice flat ribbon. What is your extrusion multiplier, filament diameter, and steps per mm on e?

If the first layer lacks squish, the following layers will also. The z stop sets the constant point from which the bed moves down, so if it's too far away to start at say c, it will still be too far away at 0.3mm + c

Actually as long as the bed is with in his layer thickness of the nozzle, the first layer will fill that gap just not be squished as much as it should. Then the next layer will actually be squished more than it should and then the third layer should be at the correct layer height and and position.

The only time you would get that layer one plus effect is if the nozzle was actually higher than his layer height and there was no squish at all. Plus it would not stick either.

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9 Reply by w_smith (edited by w_smith 2015-05-02 12:30:43)

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Re: Calibrated for cube with 0.48 wall, now solids look like sieves

I don't think it's the first layer height, here's the back side of the first layer, looks like plenty of squish:

http://geekho.com/push/FirstLayer.jpg

And then the second layer:

http://geekho.com/push/SecondLayer.jpg

Kinda looks like the perimeter is OK and the infill is way too low?

I have the E3DV6 hot-end with an 0.40 nozzle, and am printing at 240C as per E3D recommendations, bed at 100C
My settings are (defaults where not specified):

Slic3r 1.2.6
Layer height: 0.1976
First Layer Height: 100%  <---- Default 0.35
perimeters: 3
Horizontal Shells: 4 Top, 4 Bottom   <--- Default 3
Extra Perimeters if needed: Disabled <--- default enabled
Seam Position: Aligned

Infill: 100%, both patterns Rectilinear

Skirt: 1 @ 3mm, height 1, minimum 10mm of filament

Brim: No
Support: No
Speed: untouched Solidoodle defaults (not Slic3r defaults)

Advanced:
Defaults:
First Layer 200%, all others 0 for defaults.  Same thing happens when everything set to 0.48
Threads 9 (8 core CPU)


Filament Settings:
I'm using Monoprice Orange, if that matters
Diameter 1.70
Extrusion Multiplier: 0.923  (Note that this gives 0.48

Printer Settings:
Nozzle Diameter: 0.4 mm

Printer:
Steps per unit:
M92 X88.00 Y88.00 Z2268.00 E97.00  <---- Originally E138, way overextruding

Clearly I screwed something up when I rebuilt the printer and changed the stock SD head for the E3DV6, but exactly what is wrong?

Thanks All!

10 Reply by heartless (edited by heartless 2015-05-02 12:39:33)

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Re: Calibrated for cube with 0.48 wall, now solids look like sieves

the E steps/mm seems kinda low to me...

most are around the 105 mark

mine can run as low as 103, depending on the filament used.

97 just seems awfully low

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11 Reply by w_smith

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Re: Calibrated for cube with 0.48 wall, now solids look like sieves

FWIW:  The sides of the calibration cube look really nice:
http://geekho.com/push/CaliCubeSide.jpg

But the bottom looks like a sieve:
http://geekho.com/push/CaliCubeBottom.jpg

12 Reply by w_smith

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Re: Calibrated for cube with 0.48 wall, now solids look like sieves

heartless wrote:

the E steps/mm seems kinda low to me...

most are around the 105 mark

mine can run as low as 103, depending on the filament used.

97 just seems awfully low

Measured extrusion was 142mm when 100 commanded at the original setting of 138, so we need to use 138*(100/142) or 97 instead.  And measured extrusion at a setting of 97 was right on 100mm.

And my calibration cube wall width was around 0.75mm before, and it's 0.48mm now, so something's right...

13 Reply by heartless

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Re: Calibrated for cube with 0.48 wall, now solids look like sieves

Okey dokey then - just seemed a bit odd being that low, but hey, if it works... smile

looking at that last pic you posted...
Looks like outer part of it is filling/squishing good, but the center part isnt?

what surface are you printing on? the aluminum bed? or glass, or what?

Looks like you may have some bed level issues there - as in the center portion is too low.
the stock aluminum beds are known to have warping issues.

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14 Reply by wardjr

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Re: Calibrated for cube with 0.48 wall, now solids look like sieves

You have done everything right and if you are getting walls that nice than its calibrated.
So what could be the cause?
It's either a mechanical issue or a filament issue.
If you have checked all the belts and things are snug and running smoothly with minimal backlash.   Look at your extruder assembly for wobble or play, it should all be solid.
Next thing would be try some different filament,  that stuff may be inconsistent.  This would explain your steps being lower than they really should be.  Then pay close attention to the temp chart it should be flat lined at your set temp.  Watch your filament as it feeds for slippage.

Some notes:
E steps should be closer to 105
Extrusion multiplier seems high (these two balance out)
This info leads to inconsistent filament, a partial clog or a slipping extruder gear.
I am guessing your filament has an oval cross section and is having trouble feeding consistently.

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15 Reply by madfalcon81

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Re: Calibrated for cube with 0.48 wall, now solids look like sieves

I use 98 step/mm E. And it seems fine..so far..

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16 Reply by pirvan

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Re: Calibrated for cube with 0.48 wall, now solids look like sieves

OK, let me throw my 2 cents into this.  Here are a couple of settings I would look into:

Speed:
Solid Infill & Top Solid Infill. 
Slow them down a bit. 
Usually, the infill speed is faster than the perimeters.  And that's fine for normal infill, but for the bottom and top infill slow it down.
First Layer Speed. 
Should be slower than the subsequent layers, to promote adhesion, about 75% of normal speed is a good number

Advanced:
Default extrusion
For your .40mm nozzle should be .48mm.  THis is what gives you the correct wall thickness, and dimensional accuracy.
First Layer
should be a thicker extrusion.  I use .55mm again, promotes good adhesion and a solid bottom surface
Solid infill & Top Solid Infill
I use a heavier extrusion .52mm.  This doesn't have any effect on dimensional accuracy, so you can play with it as much as you want.

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