1 Topic by Rincewind

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Topic: Shapeoko CNC 3 is out - should I buy it? Advice please!

Hello forum,

I'm writing here because I know you are all friendly and knowledgeable people, and I'm sure I can get some answers that I wouldn't get in the Shapeoko forum (there are similar threads there without many answers sad ).

So I would like to buy a CNC machine, and I was thinking about a Shapeoko. I heard great things about it. The point is that version 3 is coming out soon (now produced by Carbide3D), and the Shapeoko 2 is still sold by Inventables, and I would like some advice about whether it's worth buying the new one or not. My main goal is PCB milling, but general milling of wood and aluminum is also envisaged.

Here's a list of pros and cons that I can think of:

Shapeoko 2:
+ Total Price ~$1100 (including shipment to Europe) with NEMA23 motors (are they needed? I feel like it would be a nice thing, but I don't know for sure)
+ Tested design (but also with known flaws)
+ Clear and open license (european companies sell clones and spare parts)
- Smaller build area
- Less rigidity

Shapeoko 3:
+ Larger build area
+ Higher rigidity
- Total price ~$1500 with NEMA17 motors
- Weight (well not so critical, I wouldn't move it around much)
- New product (but from the same mind as the previous Shapeokos)
- Unclear (and maybe not open) license - this might make sourcing specific components/mods outside US more difficult.

What do you guys think? Would the extra $400 be justified? Did I miss something in my analysis?

Thanks!

2 Reply by wire10ga

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Re: Shapeoko CNC 3 is out - should I buy it? Advice please!

Personally, get the larger size if you can.  I don't think either one would be a bad deal.  The 2 looks like you could expand it without too much problem though.  I did see on the website that the 3 will be open source http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by- … deed.en_US
I have a cheap 3040 CNC from ebay and really enjoy it, but of course now I know what I can do, I want a bigger work size smile

SD2 - Glass Bed, Fans on PCB and Y motor, Custom enclosure
Slicer - Simplify3D

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3 Reply by Rincewind

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Re: Shapeoko CNC 3 is out - should I buy it? Advice please!

wire10ga wrote:

Personally, get the larger size if you can.  I don't think either one would be a bad deal.  The 2 looks like you could expand it without too much problem though.

Thanks, this is really precious advice! I've read that while it is possible to expand the SO2, due to the low rigidity of the makerslide profiles, you probably need to reinforce at least one axis... And then it probably gets a bit complicated and expensive, so the gap between the two narrows.

I did see on the website that the 3 will be open source http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by- … deed.en_US

Yes sorry, I chose my words wrong, I meant free license smile The NC clause would make it impossible for other vendors to independently source the components, also considering that the rail extrusion is proprietary.

I have a cheap 3040 CNC from ebay and really enjoy it, but of course now I know what I can do, I want a bigger work size smile

Eheh great to know! smile

4 Reply by IronMan

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Re: Shapeoko CNC 3 is out - should I buy it? Advice please!

Bigger and more rigidity is always better!  Also, upgrade to a real spindle versus a Dremel or trim router...

Stumbled across this which looks very interesting...

http://www.pocketnc.com/blog/

SD2 - Stock - Enclosure - Heated Bed - Glass Plate - Auto Fire Extinguisher
Ord Bot Hadron - RAMPS 1.4 - Bulldog XL - E3D v6 - 10" x 10" PCB Heated Build w/SSR - Glass Plate
Thanks for All of Your Help!

5 Reply by Rincewind

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Re: Shapeoko CNC 3 is out - should I buy it? Advice please!

IronMan wrote:

Bigger and more rigidity is always better!  Also, upgrade to a real spindle versus a Dremel or trim router...

Stumbled across this which looks very interesting...

http://www.pocketnc.com/blog/

5 Axis - really cool! Target price 3500USD... Kind of less cool smile

I was planning to use the Kress FME: http://bit.ly/1tFMoGP - easy to source here in Switzerland. What do you think?

6 Reply by IronMan

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Re: Shapeoko CNC 3 is out - should I buy it? Advice please!

Seems to have a nice front end bearing setup and speed control.  looks good!

SD2 - Stock - Enclosure - Heated Bed - Glass Plate - Auto Fire Extinguisher
Ord Bot Hadron - RAMPS 1.4 - Bulldog XL - E3D v6 - 10" x 10" PCB Heated Build w/SSR - Glass Plate
Thanks for All of Your Help!

7 Reply by rtrski

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Re: Shapeoko CNC 3 is out - should I buy it? Advice please!

Have you pulled the trigger on either yet?  I'm starting to look at the X-carve myself, Inventables' own 'sequel' to the Shapeoko 2, which they claim is also open source.

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8 Reply by Rincewind

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Re: Shapeoko CNC 3 is out - should I buy it? Advice please!

Yes I preordered in January and just fit in the first batch... They should start shipping in the next few weeks. There was a nice surprise because they eventually decided to ship NEMA23 motors by default for the same price. The controller board is also custom, and we will know the details in the next few days.

The X-Carve seems really nice as well. The GCode-controlled spindle is nice and I definitely like the ACME z-axis. But I'm a bit concerned about the 1m long makerslides... Many people that modded the SO2 to such length found problems in rigidity and had to put two extrusions.

I am anyway planning to implement a PID control for my spindle (DIY rather than SuperPID), and hopefully the board will be able to interface with that. I already bought the components, it doesn't seem too complicated to make.

9 Reply by wire10ga

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Re: Shapeoko CNC 3 is out - should I buy it? Advice please!

Post some pics when you get it and let us know what you think about it.

SD2 - Glass Bed, Fans on PCB and Y motor, Custom enclosure
Slicer - Simplify3D

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10 Reply by Rincewind

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Re: Shapeoko CNC 3 is out - should I buy it? Advice please!

Will do smile

11 Reply by rtrski

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Re: Shapeoko CNC 3 is out - should I buy it? Advice please!

I pulled the trigger on an X-carve pre-order a while back.  Sounds like they're on schedule for 30 April delivery starts.  Went with the 1m machine size and most all the options (drag chain, stops, their wasteboard, Nema 23, etc). 

Have a worktable built for it in the garage and a list of projects (small things to start out and dial it in).  Need to start on a hinged-cover box for chip containment if I want to do metal but figured that can wait until the unit is actually delivered and assembled. 

Now researching all the software options.  Crap, CNC CAM is a whole new can of worms ain't it?

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12 Reply by Rincewind

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Re: Shapeoko CNC 3 is out - should I buy it? Advice please!

Well done rtrski! Mine will be shipped in the next couple of weeks. We will definitely share experiences afterwards!

Yeah it looks like software for CNC is a bit different, even though I'm quire relieved to see that it's generally more simple than the 3D printing software. I'm also looking around, but not too actively, at the beginning I guess I'll use printrun or something similar. I'll be happy just to get the d..n thing assembled smile

13 Reply by rtrski

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Re: Shapeoko CNC 3 is out - should I buy it? Advice please!

Not exhaustive by any means, but here's what I've come up with so far at the CAM end.  Already have CAD that can produce STLs thanks to 3d printing.  (I use Creo Direct Modeling Express...think I'm still on v4 although v6 is out; haven't seen need to update.)

And of course you'll need the right flavor of G-code sending capability.

CAM:

http://www.deskproto.com/products/entry-ed.php ($150ish)
http://www.grzsoftware.com/ (MeshCAM - also on Inventables site $250).  Fairly highly regarded for ease of use.
Bobcad - bad reviews, poor customer treatment stories about, but $250ish seems like starting price.
http://www.artcam.com/express/index.asp $194 - might be a bit too limited.  Next edition leaps to stratospheric $1500ish
http://sites.fastspring.com/hexray/product/cambam $150
Autodesk Fusion 360 - supposedly 'free' 1 year for student/hobby non-commercial use, some question if that's still true
Several options exist for CAM integration out of Solidworks if someone already has that
...and if I really want to hurt myself, Skeinforge slicer has Mill modules....no idea how finished/functional. ;-)

Machine control:
http://www.machsupport.com/software/mach3/ $175 ouch
"Universal G-code Sender" - freeware??



For doodling/testing perhaps:
http://www.simplecnc.com/
http://openscam.com/

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14 Reply by Revolve3D (edited by Revolve3D 2015-04-17 22:30:39)

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Re: Shapeoko CNC 3 is out - should I buy it? Advice please!

Rtrski-

While you may want to build a full enclosure what you really need is a dust shoe. I have a shapeoko 1 with all the upgrades. When cutting metal you will probably use .2mm-.25mm depth per pass. The metal shavings that are produced can be picked up with a dust shoe vac normally. You also want to keep the rails clear of metal shavings so this helps more then a case. With my larger industrial style CNC I do passes of 1.5mm with a 1/4" roughing bit and it sprays metal everywhere(due mainly to the mist coolant system), way worse then my shapeoko ever was.

Control Software- I have used Universal Gcode sender with my shapeoko. It works well most of the time. I have a dedicated Mach3 computer for my other CNC and it does cost money but its worth it if you intend to use the machine a lot.

CAM software depends on the type of machining you intend to do. I do a lot of 2.5D cutting and use Cambam. Cambam can accept .stl files also. I have read about better programs for 3D milling though but all cost money. I only have Cambam for now.

OpenSCAM is a free gcode simulator that has worked great for me.

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15 Reply by TheBaron

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Re: Shapeoko CNC 3 is out - should I buy it? Advice please!

Revolve3D wrote:

The metal shavings that are produced can be picked up with a dust shoe vac normally.

I will be the first to admit that i don't know about the Shapeoko / hobby mill department (my shapeoko 2 has never worked and is still just mechanically functional. Want to build an enclosure for the electronics and got distracted a year and a half ago when I bought the thing), but I used to work on CNC routers and we always cautioned customers to not use a dust collector for aluminum chips unless you were using it exclusively for aluminum chips. If your hopper is full of MDF, wood, and plastic dust, the hot chips from metal cutting could start a fire.

At the very least I'd make sure to double check that you've emptied your vac before switching to metal. Better safe than sorry!

SD3 w/ RUMBA (8825s), merlin hot end (in pieces). Ender3 w/ silent board for PLA printing. Ender5 w/ silent board, e3d v6, new z lead screw, and glass bed. DiY Kossel w/ smoothieboard (in pieces). Vellman Vertex (in pieces)
Shapeoko2 router in process of being converted to laser engraver (in pieces)
Multicam 5000 series CNC Router w/ 11HP spindle, 5x10' table, and auto tool changer (in pieces)

16 Reply by rtrski

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Re: Shapeoko CNC 3 is out - should I buy it? Advice please!

Just got the Xcarve parts. Gotta get my desk project out of the way in the garage before I can start assembly.

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17 Reply by Revolve3D

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Re: Shapeoko CNC 3 is out - should I buy it? Advice please!

TheBaron wrote:
Revolve3D wrote:

The metal shavings that are produced can be picked up with a dust shoe vac normally.

I will be the first to admit that i don't know about the Shapeoko / hobby mill department (my shapeoko 2 has never worked and is still just mechanically functional. Want to build an enclosure for the electronics and got distracted a year and a half ago when I bought the thing), but I used to work on CNC routers and we always cautioned customers to not use a dust collector for aluminum chips unless you were using it exclusively for aluminum chips. If your hopper is full of MDF, wood, and plastic dust, the hot chips from metal cutting could start a fire.

At the very least I'd make sure to double check that you've emptied your vac before switching to metal. Better safe than sorry!


I agree to the better safe then sorry comment. Why risk starting a fire when a simple emptying of the vac can prevent this. To be honest it didn't even cross my mind so thats just 1 more think I now know to make machining safer so thank you.  I could see this being a problem with commercial machines. The chips from my Velox CNC can be quite warm. This isn't really the case with the shapeoko in my experience at least. At .2mm DOC it produces aluminum dust not chips which doesn't really pull heat away from the tool as much as larger chips do. When I used my shapeoko I would also spray a bit of WD 40.

You are correct though and a cyclonic separator should also be used when vacuuming metal to extend the life of the filter.

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18 Reply by TheBaron

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Re: Shapeoko CNC 3 is out - should I buy it? Advice please!

Most of the aluminium cutting shops I would be in (mostly sign companies) would just let the chips fly wherever and then sweep them up eventually. I had to deal with so many destroyed rack/pinion systems or electrical shorts because of it... it would make me angry because I couldn't afford an $80,000 router and there they are breaking it sad

SD3 w/ RUMBA (8825s), merlin hot end (in pieces). Ender3 w/ silent board for PLA printing. Ender5 w/ silent board, e3d v6, new z lead screw, and glass bed. DiY Kossel w/ smoothieboard (in pieces). Vellman Vertex (in pieces)
Shapeoko2 router in process of being converted to laser engraver (in pieces)
Multicam 5000 series CNC Router w/ 11HP spindle, 5x10' table, and auto tool changer (in pieces)

19 Reply by tonyno

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Re: Shapeoko CNC 3 is out - should I buy it? Advice please!

FWIW, X-carve here, also. Just got it done the other day,

20 Reply by Rincewind

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Re: Shapeoko CNC 3 is out - should I buy it? Advice please!

I received my Shapeoko 3... Had to modify it a bit to use the Kress spindle that I bought and... well it's awesome. I only milled some wood so far, going to start PCBs soon.

I made a small writeup with pictures on the Shapeoko forum, if anybody is interested: http://www.shapeoko.com/forum/viewtopic … a2dccc491f

Milling is much more different from 3D printing than I expected... The things you can do are very different, it's bigger, it's louder, it's messier... And also faster and in a way more satisfying.

I feel bad because I've been neglecting my Solidoodle though smile

21 Reply by rtrski (edited by rtrski 2015-10-17 16:41:09)

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Re: Shapeoko CNC 3 is out - should I buy it? Advice please!

Sorry I never checked back in.  Finally got mine assembled about a month ago, ran 2-3 jobs, and ran into an issue.  Either dead grbl board driver path or weak motor - but from all the Inventable forum posts their customer service is excellent so I expect to be up and running again soon.

Got my Solidoodle Antique back up and running with a new PSU and borosilicate glass bed recently (also bought the E3D v6 but wanted to wait before swapping into it, make sure everything was right with the new PSU and that I had all needed parts printed before gutting the current extruder assy), plan to use it to print several Xcarve addons (dust shoe, maybe pulley and vwheel covers and the like) but holding off for a) my fix to whatever is currently ailing it and b) upgrade from the 24v stock spindle to the Dewalt 611.

FWIW my review of the Xcarve would actually be excellent despite my startup trouble.  The kit parts -- shipping and organization -- are great.  The instructions thorough with a very active enthusiastic community adding further support on their forums.  There have been issues with the 24V spindles that they've been very proactive about replacing for customers, and have switched their new default to the DW611 to avoid that problem altogether.  They're also prototyping a much stronger controller assembly that gets away from some of the grbl issues but it's pricey.  I don't think I'll be working at a level to justify that myself.

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