1 Topic by MLA

  • MLA
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2013-10-01
  • Posts: 64

Topic: Need help. warping and separation

I was hoping I could get some advice from the experts. I'm using push plastic ABS on my solidoodle press and anything over about 3" in any direction is warping badly. I'm printing on pet tape using an abs/acetone slurry. Bed temp at 110 and hot end at 240 with the door closed. I have to keep the lid open or the extruder overheats and I get the thump of death....

Here's an attempt at a print that's about 7" x 6" x 1.5" my extruder steps per mm have been calculated and fixed but using an extrusion multiplier over 0.9 results in over extruding. I'm using soli print and an infill of 40%

Any suggestions?

Post's attachments

20150302_070428.jpg
20150302_070428.jpg 1.56 mb, file has never been downloaded. 

20150302_070428.jpg
20150302_070428.jpg 1.56 mb, file has never been downloaded. 

You don't have the permssions to download the attachments of this post.

2 Reply by MLA

  • MLA
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2013-10-01
  • Posts: 64

Re: Need help. warping and separation

Forgot to mention I'm using 0.3mm layers.

3 Reply by android78

  • android78
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Melbourne, Australia
  • Registered: 2015-02-01
  • Posts: 110

Re: Need help. warping and separation

When you're printing, do you see the plastic peeling away from the build platform?
I would try using hair spray or glue stick to see if it sticks any better.
One other thing that I find is that I get layer separation (not as much as you) when I don't manually feed the filament through.  It seems that the print carriage design is such that the tug of the filament from the spool is enough to lift the head about .2mm or so, which causes poor adhesion to the previous layer.  I'm going to try using some PTFE tube for feeding the filament and see if that helps.

4 Reply by pshcims (edited by pshcims 2015-03-03 05:09:37)

  • pshcims
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2015-02-27
  • Posts: 84

Re: Need help. warping and separation

I found that I needed to do these things to get acceptable prints

- use hairspray which almost completely reduced warping.

- installed the missing screws, 2 for the bed itself, and 2 under the bottom of the unit.

- reverse direction of the extruder fan, blow air into the extruder instead of out

- print with lid open (easier to inspect and watch anyway)

5 Reply by IronMan

  • IronMan
  • IronMan
  • PRINTiT
  • Offline
  • From: SC
  • Registered: 2012-09-14
  • Posts: 1,269

Re: Need help. warping and separation

Be aware that for ABS you want to keep your build chamber pretty warm to help avoid the print lifting from the bed due to uneven cooling...leaving the lid open will not help this.

SD2 - Stock - Enclosure - Heated Bed - Glass Plate - Auto Fire Extinguisher
Ord Bot Hadron - RAMPS 1.4 - Bulldog XL - E3D v6 - 10" x 10" PCB Heated Build w/SSR - Glass Plate
Thanks for All of Your Help!

6 Reply by pshcims (edited by pshcims 2015-03-03 15:02:47)

  • pshcims
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2015-02-27
  • Posts: 84

Re: Need help. warping and separation

IronMan wrote:

Be aware that for ABS you want to keep your build chamber pretty warm to help avoid the print lifting from the bed due to uneven cooling...leaving the lid open will not help this.

Heat buildup can also affect the extruder and shut it down.

I increased the bed temperature to 110, and began using hairspray. So far, the lifting problem has not returned. I imagine that an open lid allows a consistent temperature for the length of the print, and avoids the build up over time.

7 Reply by IronMan

  • IronMan
  • IronMan
  • PRINTiT
  • Offline
  • From: SC
  • Registered: 2012-09-14
  • Posts: 1,269

Re: Need help. warping and separation

If it's working, then great! big_smile

SD2 - Stock - Enclosure - Heated Bed - Glass Plate - Auto Fire Extinguisher
Ord Bot Hadron - RAMPS 1.4 - Bulldog XL - E3D v6 - 10" x 10" PCB Heated Build w/SSR - Glass Plate
Thanks for All of Your Help!

8 Reply by MLA

  • MLA
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2013-10-01
  • Posts: 64

Re: Need help. warping and separation

For those of you that use hairspray, have you ever tried using abs/acetone slurry and does the hairspray actually work better? I've only tried using hairspray once and it didn't work, but I've had a lot of success using the slurry and PET tape on other printers. Maybe I should give hairspray another shot... I also think that better adhesion wouldn't do anything for the layer separation problem.

I have flipped the fan on the extruder and removed the plastic cover. If I keep the lid closed, hot end at 230 and bed at 100 I can print for about an hour before the hot end gets too hot. The only filament I have to test with is the green ABS from push plastic and the natural ABS that came with the printer. I know some warp is expected an a part of this size in ABS, but could the filament be the issue?

9 Reply by rickitytick

  • rickitytick
  • Newbie
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2015-01-15
  • Posts: 6

Re: Need help. warping and separation

I was getting warping and layer separation, but not quite as bad after i put down a BuildTak sheet.  Once I got the z-offset calibration dialed it, I haven't had a problem since.  i did the initial calibration with the sheet on and then fine tuned it until the layers stuck nicely.

10 Reply by IronMan

  • IronMan
  • IronMan
  • PRINTiT
  • Offline
  • From: SC
  • Registered: 2012-09-14
  • Posts: 1,269

Re: Need help. warping and separation

@rickitytick,

Are you printing in PLA or ABS?  I tried BulidTak a few months ago and it was a horrific FAIL for me with ABS.  I understand it is the Cat's meow with PLA.

SD2 - Stock - Enclosure - Heated Bed - Glass Plate - Auto Fire Extinguisher
Ord Bot Hadron - RAMPS 1.4 - Bulldog XL - E3D v6 - 10" x 10" PCB Heated Build w/SSR - Glass Plate
Thanks for All of Your Help!

11 Reply by IronMan

  • IronMan
  • IronMan
  • PRINTiT
  • Offline
  • From: SC
  • Registered: 2012-09-14
  • Posts: 1,269

Re: Need help. warping and separation

MLA wrote:

Maybe I should give hairspray another shot... I also think that better adhesion wouldn't do anything for the layer separation problem.

You should!  Make sure that it is Aquanet!

Also, I have noticed in my evaluations of past failed prints (due to bad adhesion), that the lifting is progressive and that continued lift during the print job has a very direct effect on de-lamination of layers.

SD2 - Stock - Enclosure - Heated Bed - Glass Plate - Auto Fire Extinguisher
Ord Bot Hadron - RAMPS 1.4 - Bulldog XL - E3D v6 - 10" x 10" PCB Heated Build w/SSR - Glass Plate
Thanks for All of Your Help!

12 Reply by MLA

  • MLA
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2013-10-01
  • Posts: 64

Re: Need help. warping and separation

I'll add aquanet to the next shopping list and give it another try. Does it work better on bare glass or am I ok to put it over the PET tape?

13 Reply by IronMan

  • IronMan
  • IronMan
  • PRINTiT
  • Offline
  • From: SC
  • Registered: 2012-09-14
  • Posts: 1,269

Re: Need help. warping and separation

Bare glass!!  Clean any tape residue off with acetone and spray a fine mist before heating up.

SD2 - Stock - Enclosure - Heated Bed - Glass Plate - Auto Fire Extinguisher
Ord Bot Hadron - RAMPS 1.4 - Bulldog XL - E3D v6 - 10" x 10" PCB Heated Build w/SSR - Glass Plate
Thanks for All of Your Help!

14 Reply by android78

  • android78
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Melbourne, Australia
  • Registered: 2015-02-01
  • Posts: 110

Re: Need help. warping and separation

@MLA - I think that the main issue people have with hair spray is that there are only a few that will work.  In Australia, I have tried several different types and the only one that I found to work is an expensive Redken 28 (about $25 a can), but it works really well and you don't need too much anyway.  In the US, I believe that Aquanet is the bees knees AND CHEAP!

15 Reply by MLA

  • MLA
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2013-10-01
  • Posts: 64

Re: Need help. warping and separation

Good to hear! Thanks for the advice and I will let everyone know how it turns out when I get some aquanet. The kind I tried first was an aussie brand from the wife's cabinet...

16 Reply by android78

  • android78
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Melbourne, Australia
  • Registered: 2015-02-01
  • Posts: 110

Re: Need help. warping and separation

@MLA - If you're an aussie and find a cheap local supplier of aquanet, please let me know.  The redken makes printing a little less economical then it should be.

17 Reply by IronMan

  • IronMan
  • IronMan
  • PRINTiT
  • Offline
  • From: SC
  • Registered: 2012-09-14
  • Posts: 1,269

Re: Need help. warping and separation

I believe the necessary ingredient you need is Acrylate Copolymer...

SD2 - Stock - Enclosure - Heated Bed - Glass Plate - Auto Fire Extinguisher
Ord Bot Hadron - RAMPS 1.4 - Bulldog XL - E3D v6 - 10" x 10" PCB Heated Build w/SSR - Glass Plate
Thanks for All of Your Help!

18 Reply by MLA

  • MLA
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2013-10-01
  • Posts: 64

Re: Need help. warping and separation

android78 wrote:

@MLA - If you're an aussie and find a cheap local supplier of aquanet, please let me know.  The redken makes printing a little less economical then it should be.

Sry... Not an aussie, but aussie was the brand of hairspray that I tried to use...

19 Reply by carl_m1968

  • carl_m1968
  • carl_m1968
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Far North almost not Dallas
  • Registered: 2014-10-17
  • Posts: 6,512

Re: Need help. warping and separation

Best hairspray is Finalnet. It is a buck a can and is as old as hairspray. It can keep your in place during a tornado. It is good for bed adhesion as well.

Printing since 2009 and still love it!
Anycubic 4MAX best $225 ever invested.
Voxelabs Proxima SLA. 6 inch 2k Mono LCD.
Anycubic Predator, massive Delta machine. 450 x 370 print envelope.

20 Reply by rickitytick

  • rickitytick
  • Newbie
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2015-01-15
  • Posts: 6

Re: Need help. warping and separation

IronMan wrote:

@rickitytick,

Are you printing in PLA or ABS?  I tried BulidTak a few months ago and it was a horrific FAIL for me with ABS.  I understand it is the Cat's meow with PLA.

I'm printing in ABS.  Once you get the z offset right, it sticks pretty good.  As good if not better than the glue stick or hairspray I tried previously (admittedly, I haven't tried Aquanet though)  The first print I did, my offset was waay too small and I ended up ripping the sheet off the bed before the part came loose.

One of the only things that sucks about it is when you do Soliprint's z-offset calibration.  The lines that have the smallest offsets are really hard to get off of the sheet and will probably not come off all the way.  But I've printed over those areas on the bed and it still stuck fine.