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Topic: Having to start over?

I know I've been posting a lot, and I'm sorry about that, but I honestly have one main question before I purchase the solidoodle 3. The only 3d printer I've ever owned was the printrbot simple, and it was a nightmare at times because even after it was calibrated and would print some really nice prints at .2mm, it would still mess up half way during a print at times. Obviously this can happen, but it happened too often if you ask me. I'd like to know how often that happens with the solidoodle 3. I understand that it's not a top of the line printer, but this is something that got very frustrating for me. Thanks for any answers.

2 (edited by adrian 2014-08-03 01:59:10)

Re: Having to start over?

This is an honest answer. If you are easily frustrated, than really, the SD wont be for you. A large number of printers will be not really suited either. Dems da breaks at this end of the adoption curve.

As for the specific issue you raised - it is an issue with all FDM style printers that they A: take a long time to print and B: anything can happen during a print rendering it entirely a wasted effort.  You will never truly escape this issue. If you truly want to avoid that, maybe its time to explore using a CNC to make shot molds and doing some home injection molding.. and even *then*... it still screws up run to run and making the soft tooling is prone with issues as well. This is why production houses measure stuff in 'yield', not 'units made'... the two are often quite different and FDM at home is the same in this respect smile

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Re: Having to start over?

from what I understand the prinbot simple uses  fishing line to to move the axis if the drive pulley slips you lose steps. the soliddoodle uses timing belts for the xy and a screw for the z. a regular screw a better method would be an acme screw or even better a ball screw. so from that perspective IMHO much less likely to mess up.

That said no manufacturing process no machine will produce perfect parts every time. or even usable parts every time. every tool is only as good as the operator. the Hollywood iron man fantasy of computer make me this part and a part pops out is total BS. remember the old adage garbage in garbage out this applies to 3d printing.  there are hundreds of variables to control.  first the part must be designed properly. the part must be oriented properly. the machine must be adjusted and maintained. the program settings have to be set correctly.   
I have a buddy who is an engineer he has worked as an engineer and as an educator he is experienced with high end stratasys  3-d printers. His advice to me is you can not ell the printer what you want  you need to figure out what it thinks it wants and do that. Let it teach you.

do not think you can push a button and a part comes out. operating a 3d printer you are operating a cnc machine. it is an additive machine not a mill, lathe or grinder but it is still cnc. but there is more. you are also the programmer the designer, the purchasing agent the setup man the mechanic that fixes the machine, the engineer and the janitor.

if you expect to get everything right the first time and  make a dozen parts you are barking up the wrong tree. You need to look at 3-d printing like a college engineering lab. you need to read learn and study then you apply what you learned and then the the machine will show you what you still need to learn. expect to make a few practice pieces before you get it right
then when you get it right something will change and you learn some more.
In the early days of automobiles they needed a lot of tinkering and fixing. They were not always reliable.
Home shop level 3-d printing is relatively new. It is amazing but still needs lots of human input and the human still needs to think and serve the needs of the machine to get what the human wants out of it.
Tin

Soliddoodle 4 stock w glass bed------Folger Tech Prusa 2020 upgraded to and titan /aero extruder mirror bed
FT5 with titan/ E3D Aero------MP mini select w glass bed
MP Utimate maker pro-W bondtech extruder
Marlin/Repetier Host/ Slic3r and Cura

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Re: Having to start over?

I appreciate all the help.

5

Re: Having to start over?

From a slightly less abstract perspective:

It takes a relatively small amount of time to calibrate a SD properly. Once done, you should be able to avoid another calibration for months. I would still suggest monthly maintenance (clean, regrease, etc). What causes a pre-mature need for calibration is a crash or bump. The bed sits on top relatively long screws tensioned by springs. They wobble. If the printhead hits a curling edge, there is a chance this will knock the bed out of place from your last calibration, and things have to get calibrated again.

The real question here is what causes the bump in the first place. If you have alot of overhangs, or print solid objects that have no purposed voids to relieve the tension when it cools, and you do not have a gcode fan on your printhead then you are limited to what can be printed without causing a crash. This goes for any printer. Ask too much from the printer, something goes wrong. It is not a direct fault of the hardware. It takes a lot of practice to figure out what your printer is capable of and what it is capable of.

Chuck Bittner is a quadriplegic gamer who is petitioning the major console developers to include internal button remapping in all console games. You can help.
Sign Chuck Bittners petition

6

Re: Having to start over?

I wouldn't say my answer was all that abstract. Just a lot more 'direct' tongue smile

7

Re: Having to start over?

I understand that every printer will have problems during a print here and there, but I'm wanting something that can complete a print 95% of the time. The printrbot would take about 3 failed prints for every 1 good print. That's what I meant by getting frustrated with it.

8 (edited by Tin Falcon 2014-08-03 14:35:13)

Re: Having to start over?

IMHO fishing line is for catching fish not motion control  ! what else can I say.
I expect an sd  , danvinci ,plastic scribbler robo 3d will all perform much better .
95 % success rate probably optimist maybe after a month or so of experience.
I have not been at this long enough to give odds.
I agree 25% success rate would be frustrating.
Were you able  to troubleshoot the issue and find out why it failed .
My SD dos a lot of dance steps on the infill I can not imagine fish line not slipping  I suspect that was the the issue. can you confirm that the old printer used fish line.
Tin

Soliddoodle 4 stock w glass bed------Folger Tech Prusa 2020 upgraded to and titan /aero extruder mirror bed
FT5 with titan/ E3D Aero------MP mini select w glass bed
MP Utimate maker pro-W bondtech extruder
Marlin/Repetier Host/ Slic3r and Cura

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Re: Having to start over?

adrian wrote:

This is an honest answer. If you are easily frustrated, than really, the SD wont be for you. A large number of printers will be not really suited either. Dems da breaks at this end of the adoption curve.

As for the specific issue you raised - it is an issue with all FDM style printers that they A: take a long time to print and B: anything can happen during a print rendering it entirely a wasted effort.  You will never truly escape this issue. If you truly want to avoid that, maybe its time to explore using a CNC to make shot molds and doing some home injection molding.. and even *then*... it still screws up run to run and making the soft tooling is prone with issues as well. This is why production houses measure stuff in 'yield', not 'units made'... the two are often quite different and FDM at home is the same in this respect smile

+1 this seems like the answer you don't want to hear.  Pay close attention to your original post, re-read it a couple of times (I have). All of the things that you find frustrating will exist at some level with all FDM printers.
So if your real question is can you print reliably 95% of the time with an SD?
Well.... Myself, Adrian and Hazer can along with many others that have the knowledge and desire to learn, tinker and the understanding to make an FDM printer work.  So I guess it is up to you.

Printit Industries Model 8.10 fully enclosed CoreXY, Chamber heat
3-SD3's & a Workbench all fully enclosed, RH-Slic3r Win7pro, E3D V6, Volcano & Cyclops Hot End
SSR/500W AC Heated Glass Bed, Linear bearings on SS rods. Direct Drive Y-axis, BulldogXL
Thanks to all for your contributions

10

Re: Having to start over?

Dare I say it the machine will only be as smart as the person telling it what to do. As with most hobby ventures that are worth while, patience perseverance and a little perspiration are often the most valuable tools. 
let the work speak for it selfand look at what others have done with the SD.
Tin

Soliddoodle 4 stock w glass bed------Folger Tech Prusa 2020 upgraded to and titan /aero extruder mirror bed
FT5 with titan/ E3D Aero------MP mini select w glass bed
MP Utimate maker pro-W bondtech extruder
Marlin/Repetier Host/ Slic3r and Cura

11

Re: Having to start over?

Tin Falcon wrote:

let the work speak for it selfand look at what others have done with the SD.
Tin

Sold them in frustration ? lol

(I;m being a tad cynical.. but only a tad..... there is a fair few people on this forum that dumped and ran wink )

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Re: Having to start over?

well Adrian I have been here two days and have read some horror stories. so I can  sat to myself WHAT have I gotten myself into. on the other hand I am having fun and IMHO getting reasonable result with my SD4 . And I am tempted to offer to buy a broken machine for cheap to tinker with .
Tin

Soliddoodle 4 stock w glass bed------Folger Tech Prusa 2020 upgraded to and titan /aero extruder mirror bed
FT5 with titan/ E3D Aero------MP mini select w glass bed
MP Utimate maker pro-W bondtech extruder
Marlin/Repetier Host/ Slic3r and Cura

13

Re: Having to start over?

Tin Falcon wrote:

IMHO fishing line is for catching fish not motion control  ! what else can I say.
I expect an sd  , danvinci ,plastic scribbler robo 3d will all perform much better .
95 % success rate probably optimist maybe after a month or so of experience.
I have not been at this long enough to give odds.
I agree 25% success rate would be frustrating.
Were you able  to troubleshoot the issue and find out why it failed .
My SD dos a lot of dance steps on the infill I can not imagine fish line not slipping  I suspect that was the the issue. can you confirm that the old printer used fish line.
Tin

Guess again.... The type of line that is being used (digital braid synthetic) was not originally developed as fishing line.  I have been slamming a Bulldog XL around for quite a while now at speeds and acceleration numbers beyond what most would think possible.  I can assure you if installed properly it will not slip even a little.  In fact myself and several others would consider it a serious upgrade.

Printit Industries Model 8.10 fully enclosed CoreXY, Chamber heat
3-SD3's & a Workbench all fully enclosed, RH-Slic3r Win7pro, E3D V6, Volcano & Cyclops Hot End
SSR/500W AC Heated Glass Bed, Linear bearings on SS rods. Direct Drive Y-axis, BulldogXL
Thanks to all for your contributions

14

Re: Having to start over?

wardjr wrote:
Tin Falcon wrote:

IMHO fishing line is for catching fish not motion control  ! what else can I say.
I expect an sd  , danvinci ,plastic scribbler robo 3d will all perform much better .
95 % success rate probably optimist maybe after a month or so of experience.
I have not been at this long enough to give odds.
I agree 25% success rate would be frustrating.
Were you able  to troubleshoot the issue and find out why it failed .
My SD dos a lot of dance steps on the infill I can not imagine fish line not slipping  I suspect that was the the issue. can you confirm that the old printer used fish line.
Tin

Guess again.... The type of line that is being used (digital braid synthetic) was not originally developed as fishing line.  I have been slamming a Bulldog XL around for quite a while now at speeds and acceleration numbers beyond what most would think possible.  I can assure you if installed properly it will not slip even a little.  In fact myself and several others would consider it a serious upgrade.

+1.

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Re: Having to start over?

Yeah...

Observation... I know its easy to get excited in this hobby... But its important to slow down and pump the brakes before launching in with difinitive statements on subjects.

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Re: Having to start over?

Note taken. I do know I have a lot to learn about 3-d printing. so how does the braid keep registration.
Tin

Soliddoodle 4 stock w glass bed------Folger Tech Prusa 2020 upgraded to and titan /aero extruder mirror bed
FT5 with titan/ E3D Aero------MP mini select w glass bed
MP Utimate maker pro-W bondtech extruder
Marlin/Repetier Host/ Slic3r and Cura

17

Re: Having to start over?

well I know from fishing with all types line, equipment. Braided eats up anything it rubs on as its very abrasive. it will eat through any material used as guide eyes long b4 the line needs replaced so likely it does that to the spools on printers. I have been using my SD2 for over 18 months now. (wish I had this kind of feedback b4 buying a 3D printer). but all these guys are right. I have been frustrated to the point many would have tossed the printer out in traffic just to watch it get beat to pieces LOL. but after sticking to it (some times 247 for many days) and help from others like on here (cant say much for factory tech support anywhere) I have weeks when my salable prints do maybe better than 90% then days when nobody wants to get within ear shot of my printing room for the fits it gives me just to get 1 good print for my 3Dhub site. like I told my wife and son yesterday. "these 3D printers are amazing 'when they work right' but trash when they dont" ;^P

1 thing I do is only single prints, not multi items at same time as if ya have to kill print job for any reason you only loose the 1 partial item not 8. and loss comes out of your pocket/profits. I had to adjust my costs on 3D hubs for this and the fact they do the calculating based on zero support material and only 20% infill like powder printers do. also setup fee includes if ya have to swap filament types/color which costs filament purging head too. most owners of these printers use them for items they been making with other methods or couldnt do with other methods. resale just helps recoup some investment.

wish I could get somebody to solder connections on my board for cooling fans for left side motor and at extruder tip for bridges. I made parts for them and have fans.
the new board has micro SD slot too for better flow of G-code without skipping while doing other stuff on puter. I use laptop but gonna update battery in my UPS for printer so power fails wont loose print for at least an hour.

anyway like others said if your good at things they said and can stay with it to see things through. if 6x6x6 inches is big enough for your prints the SD2 will be best choice for 3D printer type under $10,000 where powder type start. or under $1-3K for this type.

Solidoodle 2 with Deluxe kit cover & glass bed with heater. and 2nd board SD2 used not 3rd and alum platform not installed yet still wood. also need cooling fan installed to board. use Repetier Host couple vers. Slic3r also have all free ware STL programs

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Re: Having to start over?

I guess the point I was trying to make was that what you expect from your printer depends alot on what you are printing, not just what you are printing with.

If your printer cannot reliably print a simple 2 perimeter 20% infill cube over and over again, then your printer needs work. A calibrated SD3 can print cubes all day long without any noticeable variance.

If you get clog problems, or inconsistent infills, then you are looking at filament/material problems.

If simple prints are easy, but more intricate prints are problematic, then the print file itself is the problem. There are tons of stls that were designed with a bunch of support material and PLA. Some print jobs have too much mass to them and all the bed heating and fans will not eliminate curling. But placing a void near the edges will change that dramatically. I have had some really big structural parts that I had made thin already, but would keep curling up on the corners. I remade the part to have internal voids and the curling went away.

The point being, not everything depends on just the printer. It depends on the printer, the filament, the print job, and finally the user. If there is consistency on all four of those, there will be consistent prints .

Chuck Bittner is a quadriplegic gamer who is petitioning the major console developers to include internal button remapping in all console games. You can help.
Sign Chuck Bittners petition

19

Re: Having to start over?

Tin Falcon wrote:

Note taken. I do know I have a lot to learn about 3-d printing. so how does the braid keep registration.
Tin

I'm not sure I understand the question... If your asking how it stays indexed?  I would answer with another question.  Why would it need to be indexed?  If it doesn't slip (which it doesn't) and it starts at zero, so long as the steps per mm are calibrated it doesn't matter.  My thought is you should try it and see for yourself.

Printit Industries Model 8.10 fully enclosed CoreXY, Chamber heat
3-SD3's & a Workbench all fully enclosed, RH-Slic3r Win7pro, E3D V6, Volcano & Cyclops Hot End
SSR/500W AC Heated Glass Bed, Linear bearings on SS rods. Direct Drive Y-axis, BulldogXL
Thanks to all for your contributions

20 (edited by wardjr 2014-08-04 22:54:34)

Re: Having to start over?

n2ri wrote:

well I know from fishing with all types line, equipment. Braided eats up anything it rubs on as its very abrasive. it will eat through any material used as guide eyes long b4 the line needs replaced so likely it does that to the spools on printers. I have been using my SD2 for over 18 months now. (wish I had this kind of feedback b4 buying a 3D printer). but all these guys are right.

As this may be true it is only an issue if it is dragging over a surface.  In this situation it rolls nicely over the pulleys.  Hundreds of printing hours and no visible wear on the pulleys or the line.

Printit Industries Model 8.10 fully enclosed CoreXY, Chamber heat
3-SD3's & a Workbench all fully enclosed, RH-Slic3r Win7pro, E3D V6, Volcano & Cyclops Hot End
SSR/500W AC Heated Glass Bed, Linear bearings on SS rods. Direct Drive Y-axis, BulldogXL
Thanks to all for your contributions