1

Topic: Printing at 0.6 extrusion width

I've been doing a good amount of reading and thinking, and since the thinner, smaller parts seem so fragile, I decided to try bumping up the extrusion width.  I've seen quite a few topics saying the width should be about 1.5 times the layer height.  But so far, it seems to work better going 1.5 times the nozzle diameter.  I've printed a very durable single wall cylinder that holds water.  I've squished it flat with just minimal discoloration and no separation.

I'm sure its just as well going smaller, including the fact that i'm still dialing in things.  I would like to point out that for some, we could adjust the width in multiples of the dimensions we are trying to acquire. For example, when trying to print a 1 mm object, at .48 it would basically try to draw two .48 lines and fill in the .04 with the zig zagging.  Increasing the width to .5 would let it just do two solid and connected lines.

Even though this really won't help for the larger objects, I would like to hear your thoughts and experiences on it.

Bowden SD3, Rumba, E3D hotend, Mk5 with RtRyder changes, Direct drive Y axis and bearings, GT2 pulleys and braided fishing line, Lawsy linear bearing conversion, M3 Z screw.

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Re: Printing at 0.6 extrusion width

In your example if things were perfectly calibrated you'd end up with two lines that had a gap between them.  We know that in practice that wouldn't be true.  However, as the number of perimeters increase that gap becomes more difficult to eliminate throughout the entire print.  I have played with this concept a lot myself and have come to the conclusion that the zig/zag is a necessary evil if you truely want your prints soilid.  Now a better way to do this would be if Slicer could spiral it's way from the center of the print to the outer edge in one smooth action.  This would be a feature I would love to see added.  Most everything I print is solid and circular items like pulleys would be much quicker to print if Slicer didn't separate out inner and outer perimeters and then tie them together with solid zig/zag infill.  Instead it could just start in the center and spiral out like it does with the perimeters only keep working its way all the way to the outer perimeters.  Spiral is not really what is happening its one separate circle at a time you get the idea. 
All you can do is play around with it some until you come up with settings that work for you and your designs.

Printit Industries Model 8.10 fully enclosed CoreXY, Chamber heat
3-SD3's & a Workbench all fully enclosed, RH-Slic3r Win7pro, E3D V6, Volcano & Cyclops Hot End
SSR/500W AC Heated Glass Bed, Linear bearings on SS rods. Direct Drive Y-axis, BulldogXL
Thanks to all for your contributions

3

Re: Printing at 0.6 extrusion width

That shouldn't be right if it still has a gap and things are calibrated.  Would that not just be an error in the slicing software?   This interests me quite a bit, when i get back home later this afternoon I'll experiment some with it as well.

Bowden SD3, Rumba, E3D hotend, Mk5 with RtRyder changes, Direct drive Y axis and bearings, GT2 pulleys and braided fishing line, Lawsy linear bearing conversion, M3 Z screw.

4

Re: Printing at 0.6 extrusion width

accusedmonk wrote:

That shouldn't be right if it still has a gap and things are calibrated.  Would that not just be an error in the slicing software?   This interests me quite a bit, when i get back home later this afternoon I'll experiment some with it as well.

It would be right in a perfect world where the printer was calibrated to that .48 wall thickness.  Changing the nozzle diameter setting doesn't actually change the diameter of the nozzle. Just the distance between the paths the nozzle follows.  Of course we don't live in a perfect world so for certain things what your suggesting actually works for others it does not.  Keep us posted on your findings.  I used some extreme's for testing and slowly worked back to normal.

Printit Industries Model 8.10 fully enclosed CoreXY, Chamber heat
3-SD3's & a Workbench all fully enclosed, RH-Slic3r Win7pro, E3D V6, Volcano & Cyclops Hot End
SSR/500W AC Heated Glass Bed, Linear bearings on SS rods. Direct Drive Y-axis, BulldogXL
Thanks to all for your contributions

5

Re: Printing at 0.6 extrusion width

I don't mean the nozzle diameter, I mean just changing the extruded width.  On my single walls, instead of a .48 thickness, i am using .60.

Bowden SD3, Rumba, E3D hotend, Mk5 with RtRyder changes, Direct drive Y axis and bearings, GT2 pulleys and braided fishing line, Lawsy linear bearing conversion, M3 Z screw.

6 (edited by wardjr 2014-03-30 23:58:35)

Re: Printing at 0.6 extrusion width

accusedmonk wrote:

I don't mean the nozzle diameter, I mean just changing the extruded width.  On my single walls, instead of a .48 thickness, i am using .60.

I know what you mean.  Your changing these settings.
http://i.imgur.com/h4fMfBS.png
And to a certain degree that will work.  However,  if you set the extrusion width to 2mm what you will get is two lines that center out about 1mm apart and don't actually touch one another.  So you are limited by the actual diameter of your nozzle,  the amount of expansion and how wide you can squish it out to.  With a .40 Nozzle the widest I could ever achieve (in actual printed width) was about .9mm's  and that was only on the bed.  After that first layer there is some serious over extrusion that's going to happen.  Even that can be worked around but in the end I reverted back to the tried and true formulas everyone else uses.  Either way it is fun to experiment with and learn the affects of certain changes. smile

Printit Industries Model 8.10 fully enclosed CoreXY, Chamber heat
3-SD3's & a Workbench all fully enclosed, RH-Slic3r Win7pro, E3D V6, Volcano & Cyclops Hot End
SSR/500W AC Heated Glass Bed, Linear bearings on SS rods. Direct Drive Y-axis, BulldogXL
Thanks to all for your contributions

7

Re: Printing at 0.6 extrusion width

Maybe i'm misunderstanding the program, but if you have everything setup correctly, isn't the extrusion width the variable to change for how thick it makes each strand it lays down?  From your post it sounds like its supposed to be how far apart it makes each strand.

Are those the slicer settings you have been using in the picture you attached?

I made a test piece to test out what the slicer software would do with different width walls.  I made it just a 4 walled cube without a bottom.  Since I have my width set at .6mm I made the sides in those multiples.  One wall is .6mm, the next 1.2mm, the third is 1.8mm, and the 4th I threw in a curve at 1.0mm to see where it would take it.

The .6 wall is .62, the 1.2mm wall is 1.25mm, the 1.8mm came out a hair small at 1.65mm, and the 1.0mm wall it seems just rounded down and it is also just .6mm.  It was mentioned that using multiples like this would just result in the strands not touching, but I had to forcibly cut the double (1.2mm) wall with a utility knife.

Bowden SD3, Rumba, E3D hotend, Mk5 with RtRyder changes, Direct drive Y axis and bearings, GT2 pulleys and braided fishing line, Lawsy linear bearing conversion, M3 Z screw.

8

Re: Printing at 0.6 extrusion width

accusedmonk wrote:

Maybe i'm misunderstanding the program, but if you have everything setup correctly, isn't the extrusion width the variable to change for how thick it makes each strand it lays down?  From your post it sounds like its supposed to be how far apart it makes each strand.

Are those the slicer settings you have been using in the picture you attached?

I made a test piece to test out what the slicer software would do with different width walls.  I made it just a 4 walled cube without a bottom.  Since I have my width set at .6mm I made the sides in those multiples.  One wall is .6mm, the next 1.2mm, the third is 1.8mm, and the 4th I threw in a curve at 1.0mm to see where it would take it.

The .6 wall is .62, the 1.2mm wall is 1.25mm, the 1.8mm came out a hair small at 1.65mm, and the 1.0mm wall it seems just rounded down and it is also just .6mm.  It was mentioned that using multiples like this would just result in the strands not touching, but I had to forcibly cut the double (1.2mm) wall with a utility knife.

essentially we are saying the same thing other than there will be a physical limitation of the nozzle itself.  At some point (each nozzle will be slightly different) you will reach a point that the lines won't connect.  In the software you are really telling it two things.
1. how much filament it should push through
2. the tool path to follow
so by telling it that your nozzle is bigger than it actually is you are also telling it to follow the next path slightly farther apart.
I have also noticed that this all changes on the condition of the filament itself.  Filament that is full of moisture seems to expand quite a bit. Where as good dry filament will only expand roughly an additional 20%  which is where we get the .48 that you see used for a .4 nozzle.

As far as the settings above... Yes those are what I use but I have a .60 nozzle and change sizes routinely depending on the job.  With the bigger nozzle you can really start to see the effects of changing those settings.  Notice I have it at .70 and it really should calculate out to .72.  That just doesn't work with out some serious over extrusion problems.
I say have fun with it and learn some things along the way.  Maybe you can teach the rest of us a thing or two. smile

Printit Industries Model 8.10 fully enclosed CoreXY, Chamber heat
3-SD3's & a Workbench all fully enclosed, RH-Slic3r Win7pro, E3D V6, Volcano & Cyclops Hot End
SSR/500W AC Heated Glass Bed, Linear bearings on SS rods. Direct Drive Y-axis, BulldogXL
Thanks to all for your contributions

9

Re: Printing at 0.6 extrusion width

Just for the purpose of understanding here is a screenshot using a way over exaggerated extrusion width of 3mm.  This shows the path of the tool there is no way a .4 nozzle would be able to create a 3mm extrusion to connect the walls.
http://i.imgur.com/NeqaA6A.png
And here is the same object sliced with a more standard extrusion width.
Both are zoomed to the same level.
http://i.imgur.com/wHpsQR5.png
Hope this helps.

Printit Industries Model 8.10 fully enclosed CoreXY, Chamber heat
3-SD3's & a Workbench all fully enclosed, RH-Slic3r Win7pro, E3D V6, Volcano & Cyclops Hot End
SSR/500W AC Heated Glass Bed, Linear bearings on SS rods. Direct Drive Y-axis, BulldogXL
Thanks to all for your contributions

10

Re: Printing at 0.6 extrusion width

Hmmm, it definitely doesn't need to go that extreme on width ha.  What i was concluding is that making the width just 1.5 times the nozzle diameter gives it an extra footprint of squish throughout the print.

My theory is that at .48, with the .4 nozzle, since you only are squishing the sides out .04 it doesn't get that as good of contact.

Leaving the nozzle diameter the same at .4, change the extrusion width to .6.  Since it now has .1 squished on each side, I would think the extra plastic its being told to extrude should put more down force from the center out to better help layer adhesion.

Bowden SD3, Rumba, E3D hotend, Mk5 with RtRyder changes, Direct drive Y axis and bearings, GT2 pulleys and braided fishing line, Lawsy linear bearing conversion, M3 Z screw.

11

Re: Printing at 0.6 extrusion width

You are absolutely correct the only problem will come when you start doing solid infill.  Then you will have to manipulate the extrusion multiplier to prevent over extrusion.  So to accomplish what you want it would be easier to just increase your multiplier slightly and put the width back to .48?  I say do what works for you and what your printing. 
I just think this conversation will help others better understand what is really going on with their profile changes.  A lot of users are fearful to change these things with the fear that they might mess something up.

Printit Industries Model 8.10 fully enclosed CoreXY, Chamber heat
3-SD3's & a Workbench all fully enclosed, RH-Slic3r Win7pro, E3D V6, Volcano & Cyclops Hot End
SSR/500W AC Heated Glass Bed, Linear bearings on SS rods. Direct Drive Y-axis, BulldogXL
Thanks to all for your contributions

12

Re: Printing at 0.6 extrusion width

I agree, there's so much to just the program itself.  I'm having an awesome time trying different things and trying to figure out what actually changed and why.  I really appreciate the input ward!

I'm really glad there's such a great community for bouncing and sharing ideas.  I'll keep playing with it and testing some more.

Bowden SD3, Rumba, E3D hotend, Mk5 with RtRyder changes, Direct drive Y axis and bearings, GT2 pulleys and braided fishing line, Lawsy linear bearing conversion, M3 Z screw.

13 (edited by n2ri 2014-11-05 03:42:14)

Re: Printing at 0.6 extrusion width

from my experiences with the old SD2 hotend it simply cant melt ABS fast enough to fill wider gaps or walls. an E3D likey can.

or just print at way slower speeds or .1mm like I do for solid prints. as I notice on .3mm profiles the head temp drops faster than it recovers on even just 60mm speed passes

Solidoodle 2 with Deluxe kit cover & glass bed with heater. and 2nd board SD2 used not 3rd and alum platform not installed yet still wood. also need cooling fan installed to board. use Repetier Host couple vers. Slic3r also have all free ware STL programs