1

Topic: Not as advertised.

"Out-of-the-box 3D Printing"

Right on the front page.  I received my 1K unit, went through the full software setup and driver install.
I did the heating procedure, testing of the motion, and feeding of the filament. There's a conflict in your instructions by the way for heating, one set says 195 and 95, and another says the default is 215 and 100 something.  I then imported the standard STL reference model provided by Solidoodle, sliced it as directed, and ran the G-Code.  in the first run, it got through maybe 5 or so passes and then started printing in a completely different position from front to back of the unit (negative y from front to back?, is this a Z up system with the upper right corner as you face the unit as zero?)
I then stopped the print, shut the unit down, redid all the import and slicing, and prior to that I made absolutely sure I homed all the axes.
Second run, it ran through seemingly good passes for about 3 minutes, then after about 10 minutes it was back printing half a part or more off of the center in the direction from front to back.  Looking at the print, it did seem to be a somewhat progressive offset, but there was a major jump at some point as well where no printing ocurred, but it's hard to tell if that is just because the height was offset enough not to see the transitions, or there was some sort of large slip during the process.

Needless to say this is NOT:

"Out-of-the-box 3D Printing"

So now I have a choice, take apart a thousand dollar piece of equipment to fix belts and/or potentially adjust potentiometers while spending time with tech support that I can't talk to during regular hours because I work all day every day, or return the damn thing.
I'm an engineer, odds are I can fix it, eventually, even to the point or replacing parts, however, how many people can say that?

2

Re: Not as advertised.

I feel ya. And I will reply before all the "you should have expected this" come in.

First, I agree. "Out o the box" is a load of crap. I have no idea if any of the other sub-$1000 machines can claim this truthfully either. As a fellow engineer, I do know that every piece of equipment I have ever purchased usually comes with some sort of calibration (especially the nature of this particular field). I do not believe that having to calibrate a 3D printer out of the box is excessive or demanding, and in my experience with other equipment (PCB routers and other such prototyping equipment from trusted companies) it is a good way to learn your machine before expecting it to perform flawlessly with a start button. Please do not mistake my words, I fully agree with your point of view. I am only adding what should be expected next.

So if we were to come to that conclusion that calibration is a necessity, where is our documentation? Paper? Nope. PDF? Nope. Oh, some pages on their website. How many models do they have? Did they give you any paperwork to tell you what machine you have? Is your nozzle 0.4 or 0.35? Which firmware do you have? This is another failing. On top of that, your best  bet is to go to these forums and ask for help. But now the problems can get worse, as the most experienced people do not have the latest hardware revisions. Actually, the best people on these forums will recommend to 'upgrade' and alter everything about your machine to fix all the problems. Their experience is immeasurably valuable, yet this is also a far cry from where we started which was "I just wanted to buy and print".

I can tell you that thier are two possible fixes to your Y shifting issue: Extrusion calibration or stepper current adjustment. If you have not performed all of the calibrations to make sure your extrusion is correct, you may be over-extruding causing your nozzle to bump into plastic that is building up over the layer hieght you are working with. Or, your stepper driver is not adjusted correctly for the torque of your motor and the stepper is skipping steps due to that. You will have to first calibrate your extrusion before adjusting current. The crappy part is that the different motherboards require different adjusting of the stepper drivers and hence there is another opportunity for someone to use the wrong guides/information that is quite literally poorly organize (should I use SD main website? Ask on these forums and probably get flamed for not searching? Or maybe the 2 separate Wikis that concentrate on only one machine version or the other, without expressiing which  version they are describing?).

Conclusion:
-rarely out of box printing.
-no included documentation.
-multiple sources of varied information poorly organized.

So, to get on with helping:

1. Find out which motherboard you have. Since you said your machine was $1K, I will assume the new SD4 that has built-in enclosure and a printrboard REV E electronics.
2. Follow the wiki here for calibrating EVERYTHING: http://wiki.solidoodle.com/solidoodle-1. Dont skip stuff. Your an engineer, you know better.
3. Calibrate your steps/mm for your extruder physically. Software wont work well unless you nail this down.
4. Level your bed.
5. Get your Z height set.
6. Calibrate your extrusion width by printing single walled object.
7. Adjust your Y stepper driver if it is still shifting.
8. Calibrate your circles using the belt calibration guide.

That is the steps that should be advertised for proper setup of any printer. Period. Even if there is a printer that comes well adjusted out of the box, I would still advise to check all of these things.

Chuck Bittner is a quadriplegic gamer who is petitioning the major console developers to include internal button remapping in all console games. You can help.
Sign Chuck Bittners petition

3

Re: Not as advertised.

Redbeer wrote:

"Out-of-the-box 3D Printing"
There's a conflict in your instructions by the way for heating...

I also feel your pain, but be aware when you say *YOUR* that this is an independent forum of people who like the solidoodle despite some of its marketing overselling.  If you want to complain to Solidoodle, I suggest you to do so via the normal means (and perhaps wait).

4

Re: Not as advertised.

tealvince wrote:
Redbeer wrote:

"Out-of-the-box 3D Printing"
There's a conflict in your instructions by the way for heating...

I also feel your pain, but be aware when you say *YOUR* that this is an independent forum of people who like the solidoodle despite some of its marketing overselling.  If you want to complain to Solidoodle, I suggest you to do so via the normal means (and perhaps wait).

Sorry I was under the impression this forum was official or at least somewhat so, given that I was linked here directly by the Solidoodle site as part of clicking through their Tech Support link.

Thank you to Hazer for the information.
I'll certainly perform all the calibrations, but it makes me regret purchasing the more expensive version 4, given that the case work (which I do want to enclose the mess), makes it hard to fiddle with in many ways.

5

Re: Not as advertised.

No problemo.   We've ALL been there, where we were ready to throw the whole thing out the window.  I can recall on my second night with my SD2 having every print breaking away from the bed mid-print because I had it set to overextrude.

Also, I myself have posted numerous suggestions on how SD can vastly improve the customer experience (add a manual and quickstart guide, make hotends easily replaceable, include leveling knobs, etc)

However, if you take a deep breath and dig into it, as an engineer I think you'll soon get to a point where you fix anything that got tweaked during shipping,  everything becomes second nature, and actual problems are rare.  I've found my SD2 to be an excellent hacking platform and now rarely run into issues that I can't quickly solve.

6

Re: Not as advertised.

Redbeer wrote:
tealvince wrote:
Redbeer wrote:

"Out-of-the-box 3D Printing"
There's a conflict in your instructions by the way for heating...

I also feel your pain, but be aware when you say *YOUR* that this is an independent forum of people who like the solidoodle despite some of its marketing overselling.  If you want to complain to Solidoodle, I suggest you to do so via the normal means (and perhaps wait).

Sorry I was under the impression this forum was official or at least somewhat so, given that I was linked here directly by the Solidoodle site as part of clicking through their Tech Support link.

Thank you to Hazer for the information.
I'll certainly perform all the calibrations, but it makes me regret purchasing the more expensive version 4, given that the case work (which I do want to enclose the mess), makes it hard to fiddle with in many ways.

As one of the guys that Hazer referred to (usually recommend mods and upgrades).  I agree with you 100% about it not being ready to print "out of the box".  That being said I have now witnessed two SD printers that actually did print right out of the box. 
I would suggest as a time saver that you just take the time to remove the enclosure until you get through the calibration phase of things.  It might be a pain but it will be worth it in the end. 
I think it is important to acknowledge how much these things get banged around during shipping.

Just remember even though SD has dropped the ball with their documentation and lack any real instructions.
The users here on the forum are glad to help you with any problems you encounter. 
All you have to do is ask.

Printit Industries Model 8.10 fully enclosed CoreXY, Chamber heat
3-SD3's & a Workbench all fully enclosed, RH-Slic3r Win7pro, E3D V6, Volcano & Cyclops Hot End
SSR/500W AC Heated Glass Bed, Linear bearings on SS rods. Direct Drive Y-axis, BulldogXL
Thanks to all for your contributions

7

Re: Not as advertised.

Actually they are ready to print, they just don't mention that the only thing you can print "out of the box" is a wadded up ball of filament :-).

My kapton, in the right light, did show evidence of having printed the spool holder gadget, so I assume it was calibrated in the factory, but I suspect there is a direct correlation between shipping distance from Brooklyn and amount of re-calibration required.

8

Re: Not as advertised.

Since this is a brand new printer that is skipping on Y, there is one thing to try before the others that might work.  Sometimes during shipping it get bumped a little out of alignment just enough to make it prone to jamming.  Try hitting the Motors Off button or simply shutting off power, then slide the extruder forward and back by hand a few times.  Sometimes this is enough to make it settle in.  If that doesn't work, then have a look at stepper current and extrusion. 

If it is over extruding enough to snag the nozzle, you will see a rough surface and nozzle tracks through the plastic.

9

Re: Not as advertised.

Hmm..funny mine ran perfectly right out of the box.  It has been running perfect for the last month now. all day everyday.

10

Re: Not as advertised.

I can tell you from my personal experience, my machine was far from calibrated. I also had the 'shadow' of the test piece on my kapton. I can also tell you my belts were so damn loose and the extrusion steps/mm so far off there was no way they could have printed that out without some major tweaking of slicer and flowrate.

Now, when I was shopping around, I had seen quite a few reviews of how the earlier shipments came with broken printed parts. Quite a few of them were Y brackets for the idlers. So when my unit came with floppy belts, I was curious. I have had the suspicion that at some point Solidoodle may have been purposely loosening belts before shipment to guarantee less broken parts during shipping. I am also befuddled as to why there are so many reports of the steps/mm being so far off. Mine shipped with an EEPROM value of 138, and I believe that is also the default in the official firmware. From what I have read from most reports on these forums, it seems people end up with values anywhere between 100-110. Seems pretty odd to me that the default as shipped is so far off the mark.

Another thing to state is that when Solidoodle was first in the game, I was under the impression that most other companies of the time were selling unassembled kits. So, in those terms, the Solidoodle is "out of the box" printing.

Chuck Bittner is a quadriplegic gamer who is petitioning the major console developers to include internal button remapping in all console games. You can help.
Sign Chuck Bittners petition

11

Re: Not as advertised.

Solidoodle ships with the extruder steps/mm at 138 which is too much, but their default Slic3r profile has the extrusion multiplier turn edway down to .7something to compensate.  You don't have to change the extruder steps/mm to print out of the box with their supplied profile. 

The flow rate depends on the combo of steps/mm, filament diameter, and extrusion multiplier.  Steps/mm and filament diameter can be measured directly, with extrusion multiplier as a fudge factor to compensate for how much the gear teeth cut into the plastic.  My feeling is that it's better to set what can be measured according to the measurements, and fudge only one of the settings rather than two.  That's more about principle, in practice any of those 3 settings can be anything you want so long as they combine to achieve the extrusion width specified in the slicer settings.

12

Re: Not as advertised.

Hazer wrote:

Mine shipped with an EEPROM value of 138, and I believe that is also the default in the official firmware. From what I have read from most reports on these forums, it seems people end up with values anywhere between 100-110. Seems pretty odd to me that the default as shipped is so far off the mark.

My guess is that perhaps at some point (on early units perhaps?) they had a different hobbed gear that was 20% smaller.  Since this would stay constant for any single machine and be taken into account into whatever fudge factor we entered into our slicing app after calibration, I can understand them not wanting to flash different settings into different machines.

13

Re: Not as advertised.

Every SD printer I have got has printed 'out of the box' with that said the factory settings for some things were a little less than desirable... I guess I have the benefit of knowledge that some people do not have since I have been building and repairing electronics and machinery for a good number of years smile and that helps me figure things out when they are not as they should be and fix the problem without making it worse... When I first got my printers I would always check out the mechanical systems before powering them up, on one of the printers there was a piece of tape with some debris stuck to the inside of one of the y belts... if I had not seen this beforehand and removed it there would have likely been problems that would have caused other issues and failures with either the belt or pulleys.

   On my second and third printers even though it was obvious that SD had done the standard test print of the spool holder that is printed on each and every printer that leaves their factory I had problems getting anything to stick to the build platform!!! so after a thorough cleaning with various solvents and such I finally got things to stick to the kapton tape... I figure it was mainly an environmental thing as humidity and temps were different than the first SD printer was set up... could also have been filament or a dozen other things including a different manufacturing run of kapton tape.

   My last printer had a wire come loose on the printhead and was causing intermittent problems within 10 minutes of powering it on... did I let this stop me? NO, I took a few minutes to troubleshoot it and found that either in packing or shipping one of the wires that use the IDC connections had been pulled partially out of it's crimp and therefore was not at 100 percent... so I repunched it and has been going strong ever since smile

   So from what I see this is a 'print out of the box' printer... sure it has some things I would design differently/better wink but then again I could say that about pretty much everything I buy... maybe I 'm just too picky... nah. A very good amount of the issues I see with people not being able to just open the box and print is software... and most of that is OS related problems, another big thing is faulty hardware... things break!!!  sometimes the broken part is caused by the user sometimes it is caused by freight companies handling and sometimes parts just fail because the design isn't so great... or sometimes things just go south for no apparent reason... that's just the nature of the beast with an emerging technology.

   One other thought on the subject of problems with the SD printers.... I also frequent a few other 3D printing forums and see the same sorts of posts about issues with several other well known brands in fact some of the posts are almost word for word the same... you would think they had an SD printer and were posting on the wrong forum!!! but no these issues are common to pretty much all of the different platforms of FDM printers in the consumer market.

   Anyways, just my ramblings on the matter smile

14

Re: Not as advertised.

The odd thing is that this was true for the Solidoodle 1.  It had a gearbox stepper and the extruder steps/mm was in the 700 range.  When I first did the steps/mm calibration, the default was 20% too much.  The steps/mm had to be different for the SD2 since there is no gearbox, and I was baffled when I found that they had calculated the new default to a number that was still 20% too much.  I think they must have been using some kind of calculation to reach that number, which was wrong, rather than empirical measurement.

15

Re: Not as advertised.

One thing to keep in mind that 3d printing is a paradigm shift that is going to impact many facets of people's home and work lives. This was the same when pc's started to get popular. You could by a PC from IBM that was mass produced and relatively high quality or buy one from the "garage builders" and have to tweek things. We can spend thousands to buy a near perfect printer or get a good printer that needs a little tlc. Eventually these printers will be appliances but we are not there yet. Bumps and bangs are going to knock these out of alignment. Even an ink yet printer still needs to go through an alignment cycle. For being a startup, solidoodle is doing a decent job. The fact that they do a test print prior to shipping on each printer rather than a random print for qc show they are trying to make sure every printer is ready "out of the box" . They cannot control the carriers tossing them around. They are also stuck between a rock and a hard place. Do they use resources to improve the web site and docs or do they put the resources on getting the back log of printers out the door and maintain quality? Thankfully, we have several very dedicated people here that take their time and help people through the tweeks. Everyone here owes these guys a big thank you. Like wise, solidoodle owes them lots of gratitude for being their front line support. BTW, I am in no way affiliated with solidoodle.

16

Re: Not as advertised.

Funny you should mention inkjet printers gtennefoss smile

Like most people I have several inkjets and I know a ton of people that have them along with other types of printers.... but I can honestly say that whenever someone hands me a printout from an inkjet at least 50 percent of the time there are missing lines in the print.... obvious signs of guess what..... a clogged printhead!!!! so how long have they been around??? I had one of the first consumer color inkjets available from canon the pj1080a and that was quite a while back!!! wink so even with all this technology advancing in the last 20+ years they still can't make a printer that does not clog....?

anyways I just thought it was kind of funny smile

17

Re: Not as advertised.

My very first print was one of my most detailed ever, and somehow it turned out well with less than an hour of setup and calibration.  My second print, however, was not so great, and Soliforum has helped me through it all!  Out of the box printing: I would say it's true, but I wouldn't expect good quality from the "out of the box" settings.

18

Re: Not as advertised.

Second run, it ran through seemingly good passes for about 3 minutes, then after about 10 minutes it was back printing half a part or more off of the center in the direction from front to back.

It may sound stupid, but it's happened to me just like this when I get a tangle in the filament.
Just a thought.

19

Re: Not as advertised.

I would consider my SD4 purchase to have been an "out of the box" printing experience.  I printed a calibration cube without making any changes to settings (just to test the "out of the box" claim), and it was quite accurate.

To optimize settings, I afterward went through the calibration process; the only significant adjustment being extruder calibration.  I print directly to the kapton, and rarely have sticking problems.  Twice I have used blue painter's tape to print a cat from Thingiverse, because the paws didn't have enough surface area to stick well.

I only have two minor problems that I feel I can solve myself:  slightly imperfect circles - I'm going to install the pillow block and bearing mod on the Y-axis rod...and overhangs tend to curl up somewhat, which I blame on slight overextruding.  I'm confident I'll have perfect printing shortly.

20

Re: Not as advertised.

It's the weekend, so I'm going to attempt to tackle getting this thing calibrated.
Thanks for all the information. big_smile

21

Re: Not as advertised.

Redbeer wrote:

It's the weekend, so I'm going to attempt to tackle getting this thing calibrated.
Thanks for all the information. big_smile

Good on ya!

When you get the chance, come visit the hacks and mods section - many more fun-time weekends are ahead of you!

-SD3, E3Dv5, boz's E3D extruder, ABS from Sainsmart, mirror bed + dried hairspray + ABS slurry
-KevlarGorilla's 8x bearing threadless ball screw, 2n2r5's spring'd bed stabilizer
-fts_ltx's x-carriage, lawsy's v5 y-axis carriages, 2n2r5's beltless drive
-Overhead filament holder on 8mm rod, custom fillament feed, paeltz's simple enclosure, mini heater (opt)

22

Re: Not as advertised.

I got it working reasonably well.
Overall, the entire process, moving slow and meticulously mind you, took me about 5 hours.

First of all, the z depth was off.  The extrusion was quite a bit more flat than it should have been.
The y belt alignment was off and at some points I could hear the clunking.  The x-axis was also off as the circles were long and thin.
Adjusting the x/y was the most fiddly.  It seems in the need to make this "as adjustable as possible", and apparently a great fear of over constraining anything, there's entirely too much play in the design IMHO. 
The directions to move the motor back and forth and the pulleys will align is not really true.  I had to hold the shaft at the rear in place on the left and right and then move the motor front to back to align the pulleys.
I used a straight edge to align the y motor pulleys at the end as doing it by eyeball seemed like it wouldn't be precise enough, and hard to see given it's position the assembly.
The heated bed was also not leveled as well as it could be from left to right (and inevitably from front to back after adjustment, so I had some problems with the part not sticking as well.

After getting all that done, I printed the sample part from Solidoodle reasonably well, there was a small flat spot at the front of the center hole and the holes at the flange base corners were a bit off center.

Then I printed a squirrel I downloaded from one of the sites listed here.  That printed pretty well from start to finish.

Then I tried the bunny model...and I had to readjust the machine.

Does anyone find that the machine goes out of adjustment after a single run?
I'm very sure I tightened everything properly, but does the process of running loosen the leveling and/or the zero for the z axis since the switch rubs on the nob for many of the first layers and the motion of the heated bed in x and y could conceivably throw it off level with the relatively loose wing nuts and the springs not being compressed evenly.

23

Re: Not as advertised.

Hi.  I am glad you got your printer up and running again, but honestly I practically never have to recalibrate it except when I make changes to a component.  I suspect you still have something loose or some other issue like a falling cable bundle or rocking xaxis carriage that needs tweaking.  I've never had to touch any of my belt mechanisms, so that would suggest that once it is set up properly it should stay that way.

24

Re: Not as advertised.

Redbeer wrote:

I got it working reasonably well.
Overall, the entire process, moving slow and meticulously mind you, took me about 5 hours.

First of all, the z depth was off.  The extrusion was quite a bit more flat than it should have been.
The y belt alignment was off and at some points I could hear the clunking.  The x-axis was also off as the circles were long and thin.
Adjusting the x/y was the most fiddly.  It seems in the need to make this "as adjustable as possible", and apparently a great fear of over constraining anything, there's entirely too much play in the design IMHO. 
The directions to move the motor back and forth and the pulleys will align is not really true.  I had to hold the shaft at the rear in place on the left and right and then move the motor front to back to align the pulleys.
I used a straight edge to align the y motor pulleys at the end as doing it by eyeball seemed like it wouldn't be precise enough, and hard to see given it's position the assembly.
The heated bed was also not leveled as well as it could be from left to right (and inevitably from front to back after adjustment, so I had some problems with the part not sticking as well.

After getting all that done, I printed the sample part from Solidoodle reasonably well, there was a small flat spot at the front of the center hole and the holes at the flange base corners were a bit off center.

Then I printed a squirrel I downloaded from one of the sites listed here.  That printed pretty well from start to finish.

Then I tried the bunny model...and I had to readjust the machine.

Does anyone find that the machine goes out of adjustment after a single run?
I'm very sure I tightened everything properly, but does the process of running loosen the leveling and/or the zero for the z axis since the switch rubs on the nob for many of the first layers and the motion of the heated bed in x and y could conceivably throw it off level with the relatively loose wing nuts and the springs not being compressed evenly.

Thats because the bed is leveled by 3 1" long screws on springs. If your print hits anywhere during a print, the entire bed will shift. It can twist, slide, and whatever. Most people will tell you this a good thing as a nozzle crash would be so terrible (like the stepper is actually strong enough which it is not) so having this 'sloppyness' is better. Anyway, once your bed gets disturbed even slightly, your are going to go back to leveling and Z tab. Get used to it.

Now, once you get glass, an enclsoure, and a fan for your extruder then you will avoid having the issues that cause a nozzle crash in the first place, and have much less instances of adjusting your bed.

Chuck Bittner is a quadriplegic gamer who is petitioning the major console developers to include internal button remapping in all console games. You can help.
Sign Chuck Bittners petition

25

Re: Not as advertised.

Hazer wrote:
Redbeer wrote:

I got it working reasonably well.
Overall, the entire process, moving slow and meticulously mind you, took me about 5 hours.

First of all, the z depth was off.  The extrusion was quite a bit more flat than it should have been.
The y belt alignment was off and at some points I could hear the clunking.  The x-axis was also off as the circles were long and thin.
Adjusting the x/y was the most fiddly.  It seems in the need to make this "as adjustable as possible", and apparently a great fear of over constraining anything, there's entirely too much play in the design IMHO. 
The directions to move the motor back and forth and the pulleys will align is not really true.  I had to hold the shaft at the rear in place on the left and right and then move the motor front to back to align the pulleys.
I used a straight edge to align the y motor pulleys at the end as doing it by eyeball seemed like it wouldn't be precise enough, and hard to see given it's position the assembly.
The heated bed was also not leveled as well as it could be from left to right (and inevitably from front to back after adjustment, so I had some problems with the part not sticking as well.

After getting all that done, I printed the sample part from Solidoodle reasonably well, there was a small flat spot at the front of the center hole and the holes at the flange base corners were a bit off center.

Then I printed a squirrel I downloaded from one of the sites listed here.  That printed pretty well from start to finish.

Then I tried the bunny model...and I had to readjust the machine.

Does anyone find that the machine goes out of adjustment after a single run?
I'm very sure I tightened everything properly, but does the process of running loosen the leveling and/or the zero for the z axis since the switch rubs on the nob for many of the first layers and the motion of the heated bed in x and y could conceivably throw it off level with the relatively loose wing nuts and the springs not being compressed evenly.

Thats because the bed is leveled by 3 1" long screws on springs. If your print hits anywhere during a print, the entire bed will shift. It can twist, slide, and whatever. Most people will tell you this a good thing as a nozzle crash would be so terrible (like the stepper is actually strong enough which it is not) so having this 'sloppyness' is better. Anyway, once your bed gets disturbed even slightly, your are going to go back to leveling and Z tab. Get used to it.

Now, once you get glass, an enclsoure, and a fan for your extruder then you will avoid having the issues that cause a nozzle crash in the first place, and have much less instances of adjusting your bed.

+1...I find I need to re-level after about every 3 runs; mostly, it's because I'm impatient to wait for my glass to cool and I end up prying and hitting the prints with a wooden hammer to get them off!

But you will get to the point where these once arduous tasks (leveling, extrusion modifiers, clogs, etc) become second nature and you'll be printing a ton.  I am very happy with the machine overall.  I do, however, agree with your initial post in that there can be a SIGNIFICANT improvement on SD's part to ensure that the unit functions out of the box...how about a CD or memory stick with the drivers?  I had to poke around on google and go to the Arduino site and get the drivers from there.  Or, how about running a 5-10 minute print of a standard calibration cube and packing it in the envelope?  Very frustrating.

SD2 - Stock - Enclosure - Heated Bed - Glass Plate - Auto Fire Extinguisher
Ord Bot Hadron - RAMPS 1.4 - Bulldog XL - E3D v6 - 10" x 10" PCB Heated Build w/SSR - Glass Plate
Thanks for All of Your Help!