1

Topic: A great use for all of the plastics!

[video]

Ralph

2

Re: A great use for all of the plastics!

nice video...
is anyone going to kickstart that machine any time soon?

Solidoodle2 with Ceramic tile heated bed http://www.soliforum.com/topic/2544/my- … eated-bed/
"1kg should last for an while" is a lie!

3

Re: A great use for all of the plastics!

Could you imagine having a home machine, maybe one for the neighborhood.

I imagine the initial oil produced would probable run in a diesel, you would not have to do any refining, and then as a heat source I'd go with a solar prismatic lens.

Ralph

4

Re: A great use for all of the plastics!

nice. heat, pressure, and plastic. Seem like they could make it even more environmentally friendly and use solar heat.

5

Re: A great use for all of the plastics!

i was imagine a factory ship, and pumping gal of oil from floating plastics....

Solidoodle2 with Ceramic tile heated bed http://www.soliforum.com/topic/2544/my- … eated-bed/
"1kg should last for an while" is a lie!

6

Re: A great use for all of the plastics!

+1

Really makes you think doesn't it!!!

Masterbatch, ABS and PLA Pellets available for UK and Europe.
http://www.emakershop.com/Seller=1324

7

Re: A great use for all of the plastics!

Japanese guy, invented a few years ago if I remember.
Bought up by a huge Japanese company if I remember correctly.
Theres certainly nothing about this here unfortunately sad

Just like Shell bought the rights to the engine that could run on water.

8

Re: A great use for all of the plastics!

They are actually being sold!! Here is the US distributor!!!

http://e-n-ergy.com/

Ralph

9 (edited by reesy 2013-08-19 01:55:39)

Re: A great use for all of the plastics!

Interesting, Ive never heard anything more about this from here, only that the guy was nominated for a Nobel prize.
Theres  a catch though...

Prices for these machines begin at under $200,000 for the B-240

10

Re: A great use for all of the plastics!

reesy wrote:

Interesting, Ive never heard anything more about this from here, only that the guy was nominated for a Nobel prize.
Theres  a catch though...

Prices for these machines begin at under $200,000 for the B-240

Yeah, that's expected. Has anyone seen the smaller machine prices?

I really love the concept, I'd love to convert all of my plastics from my home and I could also hit up the neighbors to contribute.

Hope competition will set in to lower the prices.

Ralph

11

Re: A great use for all of the plastics!

It probably costs more to run the thing than the value of whatever comes out of the back end.  If there was any kind of reasonable ROI on these, I think you would be hearing more about them.

An efficient burner with a scrubber to remove remaining toxins from the exhaust would make more sense for energy reclamation from waste plastics.  You can't run a tractor with something like this, but there are plenty of other useful applications.

If you want to get rid of your waste filament, find someone who does plastic fabrication and uses a hot air welder.  They'd probably be happy to take it off your hands

12

Re: A great use for all of the plastics!

From what I have seen they run on 100V, and theres a massive ROI.
The guy that invented it toured Africa for a while with a desktop machine demonstrating it etc.

13

Re: A great use for all of the plastics!

reesy wrote:

From what I have seen they run on 100V, and theres a massive ROI.
The guy that invented it toured Africa for a while with a desktop machine demonstrating it etc.

But how many watts?  It's curious that there doesn't seem to be much easily obtainable information for the amount of energy required to produce 1 liter of usable fuel.  Or how much energy is required to pre-process the materials.  Or what happens to the waste byproducts which are possibly very toxic and concentrated, thereby likely requiring costly disposal.

The general rule is: If they don't openly volunteer this type of information, there's probably a good reason.  There's no such thing as a free lunch.  Converting one type of matter to another is always an energy loss proposition.  It remains to be seen as to whether the losses are higher than the gains in reclaiming the material.  My guess is that it ends up being a "wash" in that regard, which is why I suggested that simply burning it would be a better approach.

14

Re: A great use for all of the plastics!

The information is on their website e-n-ergy.com/products (sorry can't link yet)
Be-h   
2- 3 lbs /batch   
.3 gal / batch   
1 kw/hr   
2 -2 1/2 hrs/batch   
24"w x 13"d x 20"h    110 lbs
.... so 2.5Kwh or in my area  $0.225 so that's $0.75/gal unrefined oil
looks like it gets more efficient as you size up though.
I don't know how to refine this into gasoline so there are other costs. How much do you lose? How much does refining cost?
75 cents is a good start though.

15

Re: A great use for all of the plastics!

So in essence, after paying the .75 (assuming these numbers are first factual, typical, and not best case), and waiting 2 1/2 hours, you end up with a liquid that has most of the nasty stuff which was present in the original compound, and which likely burns no cleaner than just igniting the plastic itself, with some sort of residual which requires disposal.  And then there is machine cleaning and maintenance, operator costs, transportation costs of raw materials and the resulting liquid to refinerys, etc.  And then there is the question as to how toxified the water becomes as a result of the process.

On-site refining and reclaiming on a massive scale may provide cost benefit, but it's very unlikely at a smaller scale.  I see nothing which indicates the "massive ROI" claimed in an earlier post.  If it takes 100 years to pay for itself, it's not a good solution.

16

Re: A great use for all of the plastics!

carbon + heat + pressure = diamonds.
I don't claim to know what the heat and pressure are doing to the chemical composition of the plastic but it does change and it therefore burns different.
You may be quite correct in the ROI not being good though (if any).
Not to mention that the .75 came from coal...... tongue
Now a solar concentrator on a pressure vessel with a release valve..... that's at least more environmental

17

Re: A great use for all of the plastics!

gr1f1th wrote:

carbon + heat + pressure = diamonds.
I don't claim to know what the heat and pressure are doing to the chemical composition of the plastic but it does change and it therefore burns different.

Maybe, but those extra bonders, stabilzers, etc. have to end up somewhere.  There doesn't seem to be anything in the system to separate these from the resulting oil, so it's probably safe to assume they are part of it.  Maybe broken down to the point that they no longer perform the function they were intended to perform when added, but probably not less nasty in the end.  One thing that is glaringly absent from the videos is the maintenance of the machine, showing what is left in the hopper after the process, etc...  But they do show some poor old guy with some scissors cutting up stuff to fill the heating chamber.

Maybe they should use virgin pellets (like they probably did when getting those efficiency figures) tongue

18

Re: A great use for all of the plastics!

lol yeah..... greaaaat roll

19

Re: A great use for all of the plastics!

I love the immediately dismissive attitude of some.
How many millions of tons of plastic are there filling landfill sites in every country/sea of the world?

Unbelievable.

20 (edited by Orb 2013-08-22 16:32:27)

Re: A great use for all of the plastics!

reesy wrote:

I love the immediately dismissive attitude of some.
How many millions of tons of plastic are there filling landfill sites in every country/sea of the world?

Unbelievable.


You completely miss the point.  If you want those "millions of tons of plastic" to disappear, then whatever process is used to reclaim should be as efficient and as cost-effective as possible.  Otherwise, A) it won't happen, and B) you might just be trading one issue for another.

It's just how the world works.

21

Re: A great use for all of the plastics!

I do not miss the point your trying to make about things being cost effective and all processes, electricity, wages, etc etc etc that need to be taken into consideration for it to be a realistic proposition.

I think it is yourself that totally misses the point.

If you dont have the technology in place in the first place it doesnt matter how cost effective anything is if you cant do it.

Regarding your 2 points
A) In Japan there are 4 collections of rubbish a week, for burnable, unburnable, card board boxes, PET bottles, Cans, and Glass (not all at once obviously). This is a clear demonstration of the point your trying to make, that yes its inefficient, yes it costs a lot, and the further recycling that takes place after even less efficient and even less cost effective.
But A) It happends and yes B) They just trade one issue for another but I think its better to try than to just say sod it chuck it away its cheaper to make new.

Perhaps the world is different over here than it is wherever you live.

22 (edited by Orb 2013-08-23 17:16:56)

Re: A great use for all of the plastics!

reesy wrote:

They just trade one issue for another but I think its better to try than to just say sod it chuck it away its cheaper to make new.

Perhaps the world is different over here than it is wherever you live.


Yes, you are correct.  I do not live on an overpopulated island where every square inch of land is precious.  In that circumstance, I can certainly understand the need to do whatever needs to be done, regardless of the cost.  But I did not once  state what you wrote above.  Converting materials, which can be incinerated directly (scrubbing the resulting burnoff) and utilizing the resulting thermal energy for some useful purpose, into fuel which costs exponentially more than traditional sources of same, and which will be used in the end for essentially the same purposes, does not make sense, no matter how the argument is framed.

Again, any approach to reclamation must make financial sense for it to become widely adopted.  Traditional recycling (reclaiming certain plastic and paper products to be turned into new products) is what you are referring to, and makes more financial sense.  Processing is minimal, and yields are quite high.  There is also commercial demand for the resulting material, as it is less expensive than virgin product.  It is true recycling.   The conversion approach creates no commercial value, and therefore no real incentive for adoption on a large enough scale to make an appreciable difference in the current situation.

23

Re: A great use for all of the plastics!

I don't think cost should be such a factor.  We are talking about cleaning up the plastics that are littering the world.  I agree that it should be done in such a way that you are not exchanging one type of disaster for another and they do not give enough specifics to know if this machine can achieve that.  My question when I saw the machine in action was, what about the leftover material that doesn't turn to gas?

There are plasma burners that reduce tires to create energy cleanly.  ADM uses them to power their plants.  Although they have a blackish dirt material leftover.  It takes less room than a bunch of tires but I don't know what they do with that dirt stuff either or how harmful it is.  But if it is about space....and you have a limited amount of it like Japan, then I hope they figure it all out.

I've been to many third world countries and the trash is everywhere.

If it's worth doing, get a proffessional, if it's worth doing right, get me.