1 Topic by Rocketman

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Topic: Useage and Cost of ABS Plastic. & .4mm nozzles.

I recently changed plastic and found that a new roll of green weighs 1,192 grams and the empty roll weighs 211 grams, and so the filament itself must weigh 981 grams. When printing is there any loss in plastic in the process? Maybe gas is released or something? Or if I use a certain weight worth of filament I will get back exactly that much in the final object? I am looking for a way to compute the cost if I were to start selling prints.

Recently SD started making the .4mm nozzle the standard, versus the old .3mm. The customer support I talked to claimed that the increase in size does not affect resolution and that the new nozzle's are "superior" because they are less clog prone. Now being less likely to clog is fine in my book, but wouldn't there absolutely need to be a loss in printable detail as the nozzle size is increased?

2 Reply by 2n2r5 (edited by 2n2r5 2013-08-29 16:39:54)

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Re: Useage and Cost of ABS Plastic. & .4mm nozzles.

Rocketman wrote:

I recently changed plastic and found that a new roll of green weighs 1,192 grams and the empty roll weighs 211 grams, and so the filament itself must weigh 981 grams. When printing is there any loss in plastic in the process? Maybe gas is released or something? Or if I use a certain weight worth of filament I will get back exactly that much in the final object? I am looking for a way to compute the cost if I were to start selling prints.

Recently SD started making the .4mm nozzle the standard, versus the old .3mm. The customer support I talked to claimed that the increase in size does not affect resolution and that the new nozzle's are "superior" because they are less clog prone. Now being less likely to clog is fine in my book, but wouldn't there absolutely need to be a loss in printable detail as the nozzle size is increased?

What resolution do you normally print at? Anything .1mm and above you should have no problem with a .4mm nozzle. I have successfully print .07 with a .4mm nozzle. A big nozzle also lets you print quicker since your can shove more plastic through it.

I have a couple .25mm nozzles that I rarely use but I throw them on when doing .1 to .05 or smaller layers.

As far as plastic costs, it comes out to around 3-4 cents per cubic centimeter. When you slice a model , slic3r gives you the estimated filament usage. Filament costs probably won't be the driving force behind your pricing. It will probably will be more closely related to the time it takes to print. Especially since .1mm layers  take a lot longer to print a model then .3mm layers, however, they will use pretty much the same amount of filament.

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3 Reply by IanJohnson

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Re: Useage and Cost of ABS Plastic. & .4mm nozzles.

There isn't a loss in Z resolution, but there is in XY.  Any corner turned is going to be a little more rounded, so the detail can't be as fine.  I doubt there is much difference between .35 and .4, there would probably be more difference between .35 and .5.  I'm using a .5 right now because I have some Laywood I'd like to try out.  I've noticed that there is more likely to be small gaps in solid fill in tight areas like sharp inside corners because it can't fit a .5mm thread all the way in to the point.

4 Reply by Rocketman

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Re: Useage and Cost of ABS Plastic. & .4mm nozzles.

2n2r5 wrote:
Rocketman wrote:

I recently changed plastic and found that a new roll of green weighs 1,192 grams and the empty roll weighs 211 grams, and so the filament itself must weigh 981 grams. When printing is there any loss in plastic in the process? Maybe gas is released or something? Or if I use a certain weight worth of filament I will get back exactly that much in the final object? I am looking for a way to compute the cost if I were to start selling prints.

Recently SD started making the .4mm nozzle the standard, versus the old .3mm. The customer support I talked to claimed that the increase in size does not affect resolution and that the new nozzle's are "superior" because they are less clog prone. Now being less likely to clog is fine in my book, but wouldn't there absolutely need to be a loss in printable detail as the nozzle size is increased?

What resolution do you normally print at? Anything .1mm and above you should have no problem with a .4mm nozzle. I have successfully print .07 with a .4mm nozzle. A big nozzle also lets you print quicker since your can shove more plastic through it.

I have a couple .25mm nozzles that I rarely use but I throw them on when doing .1 to .05 or smaller layers.

As far as plastic costs, it comes out to around 3-4 cents per cubic centimeter. When you slice a model , slic3r gives you the estimated filament usage. Filament costs probably won't be the driving force behind your pricing. It will probably will be more closely related to the time it takes to print. Especially since .1mm layers  take a lot longer to print a model then .3mm layers, however, they will use pretty much the same amount of filament.

Yes I know it will tell me the cubic use of plastic after slicing it, but assuming the machine uses more or less than it says it does I'd like to merely weigh the object itself and know how much the plastic costs. That I will treat as the cost of the object since I think the electricity is neglectable, and the future of things that can break down are importable to predict. lol. Do I get out in plastic exactly what I put in?

5 Reply by Rocketman

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Re: Useage and Cost of ABS Plastic. & .4mm nozzles.

IanJohnson wrote:

There isn't a loss in Z resolution, but there is in XY.  Any corner turned is going to be a little more rounded, so the detail can't be as fine.  I doubt there is much difference between .35 and .4, there would probably be more difference between .35 and .5.  I'm using a .5 right now because I have some Laywood I'd like to try out.  I've noticed that there is more likely to be small gaps in solid fill in tight areas like sharp inside corners because it can't fit a .5mm thread all the way in to the point.

So with a larger nozzle the layers can be just as small by perhaps pushing the plastic in at a slower pass and dragging the plastic along a portion of the nozzle opening? I am trying to play around with lithoplanes as well, and all their important detail is on the top. A large nozzle would cause harm to that type of detail? Perhaps "inferior" with XY details?

6 Reply by IanJohnson

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Re: Useage and Cost of ABS Plastic. & .4mm nozzles.

The default thread width with the .35 nozzle is .42mm, and with a .4 nozzle you can still use that same thread width so the detail is the same.  The rule is that you shouldn't set the thread width smaller than the nozzle.  With the .35 you could go with a thinner thread if you want.  If it is smaller than the nozzle size, then it is harder to control where the thread is going to land.  By going a little larger than the nozzle, you get some leeway in case there is some inconsistency in extrusion.

Layer height is only a function of the distance between the nozzle and the previous layer.  Slic3r takes into account the layer height, nozzle size, and filament width to figure out how much plastic to push to achieve the desired thread width at a given layer height and speed.

The difference in detail should still be pretty slight.  At the distance you would be viewing the piece, I doubt you would notice.

7 Reply by Rocketman

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Re: Useage and Cost of ABS Plastic. & .4mm nozzles.

Is anything lost in the printing process? Same weight of plastic in as I get out?

8 Reply by ronsii

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Re: Useage and Cost of ABS Plastic. & .4mm nozzles.

Rocketman wrote:

Is anything lost in the printing process? Same weight of plastic in as I get out?


Energy is lost of course wink

Also if there is any moisture in the filament it will be outgassed along with any other materials that have a boiling point less than the maximum temp the hot end hits while you are printing, if the filament is dry and of good quality without a bunch of impurities the loss of weight after printing should be negligible.

9 Reply by Rocketman

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Re: Useage and Cost of ABS Plastic. & .4mm nozzles.

ronsii wrote:
Rocketman wrote:

Is anything lost in the printing process? Same weight of plastic in as I get out?


Energy is lost of course wink

Also if there is any moisture in the filament it will be outgassed along with any other materials that have a boiling point less than the maximum temp the hot end hits while you are printing, if the filament is dry and of good quality without a bunch of impurities the loss of weight after printing should be negligible.

Thank you. smile

10 Reply by dkeeling728

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Re: Useage and Cost of ABS Plastic. & .4mm nozzles.

dont forget skirt/brim/support/raft, as well as any nozzle priming like anchor points.

and if your planning to sell prints, factor in your print time. and there will be R&D prints in there while you fine tune your settings for each object to give you best quality for the time spent, etc. along with vapor bath accidents that ruin finished prints. there are a lot of factors to take into account.

if you want to have a business selling mass produced 3d parts, your probably better off using the printer to print a master pattern, and taking silicone molds of it, and casting them in resin or plaster. thats a much less time intensive operation with quicker RoI. can make multiple molds and cast many at once, vs 1 at a time prints that take 5-6 hours.

unless your doing something like small scale rapid prototyping for low volume clients. then i can see using the printer for everything.