1 Topic by roli

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Topic: Prints sticking (too much) to the print surface

I have a weird problem with my Solidoodle 2 printer and I can't figure out what is wrong. Basically I've had my printer for half a year now - it's a Soliddodle 2 with heated bed - nothing else has been modified. A while ago I forgot to turn off the extruder so some ABS clogged the damned thing. But before I noticed that, it started printing very thin first layer. I unclogged the damned thing and cleaned the bed with acetone. And then I continued printing...

And that is somewhat important since that is the first time that I noticed a strange problem. I couldn't get the prints off of the damned thing without using a knife. Before that, I could just let the bed cool down and around 40°C the thing simply poped off and I could just lift it off. But it doesn't do that anymore.

Since then I've replaced the Kapton (cheap Chinese one but it does its job) and leveled the print bed. First layer isn't squashed at all right now (it was before this problem started showing up) - it is basically set up as it should be. But the thing still doesn't want to come off. Even with new kapton, leveled bed, and completely cool bed.

Larger ABS prints still unstick during the print at some points though. Not as much as before but they still do. I run my extruder at 200°C and the print bed at 110°C.

Any ideas on what could be wrong?

2 Reply by pretenda

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Re: Prints sticking (too much) to the print surface

I know this isn't the answer to your question, I had the same problem as you. Prints would stick so much that I ended up pulling the kapton off the bed by trying to remove parts. I didn't end up fixing it, because I moved to a glass bed. It was the best change ive made to my printer. It sticks like glue above about 85 degrees C, and then when it cools down to about 40 degrees, you can just pick it up straight off the top of the bed. Im know this is super dodgey but ive even opened up the IP camera looking at my printer from remotely and pushed the part off to start a new one. There is plenty of information around on this forum about how to do it, but the basic idea is, buy 4 bulldog clips, a standard photo frame that takes pictures that are 150mm tall, and a can of hair spray. Pull the glass out of the photo frame and give it a good coating in hair spray, clip the glass onto your bed (making sure to miss the motor on the left of the printer if your glass is 200mm wide like mine), wind your Z screw at the back of your printer up so that your hot end doesnt ram into the glass, relevel the bed and print away.

There are plenty of people here who are more than willing to help out if you have any problems. Having said that, im sure others have gotten the kapton to work better than I did.

3 Reply by roli

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Re: Prints sticking (too much) to the print surface

Thanks for the reply. What I can't figure out is why this started happening after that extruder clogging thing. It is clearly not because of the Kapton since I replaced it, but I haven't changed any of the settings either.

I've heard about the glass bed before but I didn't know it was so simple. I may try it but I did hear about it not working so well for larger prints.

4 Reply by pretenda

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Re: Prints sticking (too much) to the print surface

S'all good. If I printed anything bigger than about 100mm x 100mm on the kapton, it'd take me hours to get it off, and the bed would almost definitely be thrown out of alignment. Hopefully someone else pipes up that can help you out. Have you done a search to see what info is already on the board? I'm sure someone else is in the same boat.

The good part about the glass bed is if it doesn't work, you can revert back to your old setup by just pulling the glass off and reset your alignment. No need to touch the existing setup at all. The only thing you've lost is $2.50 worth of picture frame and 3/4 bulldog clips. Both of which can be reused if you keep the rest of the picture frame wink

5 Reply by pretenda

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Re: Prints sticking (too much) to the print surface

Also, on the glass, I've found if you heat it up for longer, bring it up to a higher temp, and lather it in hairspray you don't have a heap of warping with large prints. I have less problems now than I did with my kapton setup. I have been printing boxes that are 152w x 101d x 78h mm with near to no warping.

6 Reply by neoblood3d

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Re: Prints sticking (too much) to the print surface

I just switched over to using cheap pieces of mirror from a local brink and mortar store who cut me (5) 8x8" out of their drops for almost nothing.  It's slightly under 1/8" thick.  I discovered I should have done it on day one.  You lay it down directly on top the Kapton and use clips and heat it to 85ish and all you need is the tiniest dusting of "Super Hold Aquanet" and your prints will stick like it was glued.  All you need to do to remove it is let the mirror cool for a few minutes to luke warm and run luke warm water over it.  The part pops right off without problem.

7 Reply by dkeeling728

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Re: Prints sticking (too much) to the print surface

glass + hairspray is hands down the only way to use any 3d printer. when anyone claims to have problems with it, they are either trolling, or doing something wrong in their workflow.

ABS or PLA, glass + hairspray is the answer to what ails ya. lol

one very common mistake is to start the print before the whole heated bed + glass assembly has come up to temp. remember that its going to take a bit longer for the bed heater to heat the glass as well. and take this into account. i simply added the M190 command to my start Gcode so that the printer wont even start moving into position to heat the extruder until the bed is up to temp. seems to totally solve that problem.

also, experiment with several types of hairspray. the cheaper the better IMO (you don't want "organic" or any crap like that, you want the sticky icky stuff that makes your hair fall out.) if one doesn't work, make a note of it and move on. thinned down white glue (elmers) can also be painted over the bed, then to remove the part you can just run the cooled glass/part under water to dissolve the glue. i haven't tried this yet, but i will be experimenting, because i had one large PLA print stick so well the other day that the glass shattered as i was trying to pry it off. so some caution is in order! lol

8 Reply by IanJohnson

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Re: Prints sticking (too much) to the print surface

Here is the original source of the hairspray idea, with a little more info on what to look for -

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:28787

9 Reply by Charles_Xavier

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Re: Prints sticking (too much) to the print surface

dkeeling728 wrote:

i had one large PLA print stick so well the other day that the glass shattered as i was trying to pry it off. so some caution is in order! lol

I agree with your post on glass+hairspray, but the one thing I didn't hear you say that would have saved your glass plate:

Put the plate directly in the freezer with the print. The glass will cool much faster than the PLA and the difference in temperature will cause contraction, and the PLA will pop RIGHT off, no problem, in under 10 minutes. Zero chance for breakage, or scraping the glass.

The only way this could not be preferable is if you only have one piece of glass and your bed takes a looooong time to heat.

10 Reply by GoolGaul

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Re: Prints sticking (too much) to the print surface

I've been printing thinks with large flat bottoms, and removal has been hit-or-miss.  One thing that helps is putting a few inverted bumps on the bottom of the model, to create small air pockets.  then I just tap the side of the model low, close to the glass, and then watching where the part releases from the glass - you can see a slight color change when it lets go.

I have also had great results with cooling the glass - initially during the winter by placing the glass near a slightly open window for a few minutes - and now, just by setting the glass on a re-purposed PC fan.  I also tried using a 2"x2" Peltier plate (left over from my laser-fun days) with decent results, but one piece of glass cracked during cooling - perhaps from the uneven cooling pattern.

Considering most of my parts aren't even visible in many of my models, and the bottom of the print is usually the bottom of my model, I did happen upon a nice method.  I erroneously bought 100mm wide kapton tape.  Set it up so that the seam between the 2 pieces of tape was right down the center of the glass, and the super-slight gap does help to remove the prints.  I did experiment with a small 2nd layer of kapton as well, when I was printing a dozen of the same big part, and that helped too, but was an annoyance to manage.

good luck.

11 Reply by adrian (edited by adrian 2013-07-03 15:27:43)

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Re: Prints sticking (too much) to the print surface

I just switch off the bed and it drops 10°C in a quick bit and the parts usually come right off... if they don't, i hit them with some freezer spray on the bed (not the top of the part, that will cause delamination), and they pop right off of their own accord. An upside down can of dust-off would achieve the same result I guess inlieu of freezer spray

12 Reply by roli

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Re: Prints sticking (too much) to the print surface

Ok, I've just tried the glass method with mixed results. One smaller print went OK although I did notice a bit of warping - which is not something that you would want on such a small print because I didn't get warping on a broken kapton with this model. But it did pop just off as soon as I removed the glass from the heated bed. The other print is a different story - it is a bit more difficult print and it unstuck mid-print (at around 60%).

13 Reply by pretenda

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Re: Prints sticking (too much) to the print surface

How hot did you get the bed to? If its too cold nothing sticks. If all else fails as well, more hairspray!

14 Reply by roli (edited by roli 2013-07-04 00:18:18)

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Re: Prints sticking (too much) to the print surface

As suggested above - 85°C (well actually I set it to 87 so it has a bit of room to fluctuate).

I tried the same print (attached in this post) again and it unstuck at about 80%. It is a tricky print since it doesn't have a lot of surface to stick but it printed fine with kapton.

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15 Reply by Staffordknot

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Re: Prints sticking (too much) to the print surface

At 110 the glass gets poorly!

16 Reply by MeshMoth

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Re: Prints sticking (too much) to the print surface

So i didn't read all of the posts, but i just wanted to let you guys know what has worked for me. I use the hairspray method and works great. But right after printing parts i set the glass aside for 10 - 15 minutes to let it cool down (cool enough that it doesn't burn your hand or crack under running water). Put on a second sheet of glass with hairspray if you have a second part to print to heat up. Then I run the first sheet of glass (with the part) under cool running water and at the same time it removes the hairspray and it releases the part. Then wash off the rest of the gunk left behind. Everything usually comes off just by using my finger nails and you have a fresh glass to start the cycle again.

For people that are just using kapton, i use a can of compressed air duster. Just spray it on the bottom of the part and it releases right away. For stubborn parts you can turn the duster can over and have it spray the liquid and works better, though this cools down your bed a lot a may cause the bed to warp due to the quick change in temperature. Ive also used a compressor but its a bit strong and blows stuff all over the place. Blowing on the parts with your mouth works too but i get really light headed after a while. If you are using clear filament you can actually see the parts releasing from the glass/bed.

The duster cans are a bit expensive so i find that the glass/water method is the cheapest and works most efficiently.
Hope this helps someone.