1 Topic by Rocketman

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Topic: Trouble Shooting. Extruder won't heat up.

As I've done many times in the past I started the printbed heating up because it takes a while, and then started the extruder heating up. I saw it as hot as 90 degrees at one point, but then when I wasn't looking it apparently started cooling back down, and the light in the software that tells you it should still be heating was still on. It just kept cooling about .1 to .2 degrees at a time until it was more or less room temperature again. I am not sure if this will be an on going issue as it only happened just now, but in case something broke I'd like pointer to figure out what might be wrong.

2 Reply by elmoret

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Re: Trouble Shooting. Extruder won't heat up.

It's been covered many times. I mean, there's even a sticky for it:

http://www.soliforum.com/topic/636/hot- … to-repair/

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3 Reply by Rocketman

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Re: Trouble Shooting. Extruder won't heat up.

elmoret wrote:

It's been covered many times. I mean, there's even a sticky for it:

http://www.soliforum.com/topic/636/hot- … to-repair/


It looks like a really painful process to finding out what is wrong, and I'm worried that afterwards the only thing I might be able to do is replace something that will be costly. I mean I don't even have a multimeter, which will cost me something. I've only had the printer for maybe 2 months and it already looks like the equipment needed to keep it running will cost me more than the machine itself cost. sad I wish there was a technician that I could hire to take care of this business for me because I don't have the technical know-how for this type of thing.

4 Reply by elmoret

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Re: Trouble Shooting. Extruder won't heat up.

It's about a 95% certainty it's the hot end. Solidoodle will probably make you send it in, then they'll send you one.

If technical isn't your cup of tea, you need a makerbot with support contract or objet.

Cheap, easy, exists today. Choose any two.

Filastruder - the robust, inexpensive filament extruder
E3Dv6 All Metal Hotend - the premier 3D printing hotend

5 Reply by Rocketman

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Re: Trouble Shooting. Extruder won't heat up.

elmoret wrote:

It's about a 95% certainty it's the hot end. Solidoodle will probably make you send it in, then they'll send you one.

If technical isn't your cup of tea, you need a makerbot with support contract or objet.

Cheap, easy, exists today. Choose any two.

Well I think makerbot is owned by the same company, and Objet is well out of my budget. But still $750 is not small change, and I seriously was hoping this was something that could pay for itself before it started fucking up. I already found someone very interested in selling objects I've shown samples of in their store. Now what exactly is the "hot end?" Is that the nozzle or the whole extruder or what? Does this type of problem happen pretty often as you mentioned, how to fix it has been well covered, and even has a "sticky?"

6 Reply by Gordym

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Re: Trouble Shooting. Extruder won't heat up.

The Hot end assembly is from the black thing (Peek) in your acrylic "jigsaw" (Where your filament goes) to the nozzle (Where the filament exists). This assembly is sold on the Solidoodle store for $59. The assembly is fairly easy to remove if you follow the video on the Solidoodle Wiki. Be careful not to break the acrylic Jigsaw when removing the hot end. The components of the hot end include the Peek (Black thing), clear acrylic spacer, wood spacer block, Brass threaded barrel, heater assembly (aluminum block where the wires go), heater resistor (In the aluminum block), Thermister( reads the temprature of the hot end and is located under the gold colored kapton tape), a black round piece if insulation, some kapton tape, and the nozzle. This assembly can come completely apart and each component can be replaced seperately. One thing Solidoodle does not recommend is taking the brass barrel out of the Peek. Be careful disconnecting the two wire connectors near the jigsaw. One set is for the Thermister to send temp readings back to the control board, the other is for the heater resistor. If the problem is the heater or thermister, either of these can be replaced seperately. The problem with disassembling the hot end is that plastic will usually harden in the barrel so to disassemble you need to heat the hot end first. Some here have recommended heating the nozzle with a torch to disassemble and/or clean the nozzle. This would be one method for disassembly when working with an unheatable hot end.

In my opinion to disassemble a non-working hot end you would:
1. Disconnect the wire connections near the acrylic jigsaw.
2. remove the entire hot end assembly from the printer using the Solidoodle Wiki instructions.
3. slide the black insulation off the hot end near the nozzle.
4. carefully remove the gold kapton tape from the nozzle. (This is where the thermister is. Do not damage the thermister). I usually slice the kapton on the opposite side of the nozzle, then remove the tape.
5. set the thermister aside in a container.
6. Hold the hot end by the threads between the peek and heater assembly with pliers tightly.
7. heat the hot end (nozzle side) with a torch just enough to loosen the nozzle.
8. Unscrew the nozzle from the hot end.
9. let the hot end cool down, then unscrew the heater assembly from the barrel.
10. replace the failing heater and/or thermister and reassemble. After I put the nozzle back on, I make sure the heater is snug against the nozzle so it heats properly.

There are similar instructions on the Wiki's that explain this as well.

Good luck and don't give up! Printing is a lot of fun but requires patience to keep everything running smoothly. I have an extra hot end assembly so if one fails, i can easilly swap it out then fix my bad one.

SD2
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7 Reply by solijohn

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Re: Trouble Shooting. Extruder won't heat up.

Rocketman wrote:
elmoret wrote:

It's been covered many times. I mean, there's even a sticky for it:

http://www.soliforum.com/topic/636/hot- … to-repair/


It looks like a really painful process to finding out what is wrong, and I'm worried that afterwards the only thing I might be able to do is replace something that will be costly. I mean I don't even have a multimeter, which will cost me something. I've only had the printer for maybe 2 months and it already looks like the equipment needed to keep it running will cost me more than the machine itself cost. sad I wish there was a technician that I could hire to take care of this business for me because I don't have the technical know-how for this type of thing.

Having a multimeter would just make it certain that what the error was. We get a decent number of hot-ends that can be fixed on the spot. With the multimeter we can check on weather the heating element itself has died.

Former Solidoodle employee, no longer associated with the company.

8 Reply by Rocketman

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Re: Trouble Shooting. Extruder won't heat up.

Gordym wrote:

The Hot end assembly is from the black thing (Peek) in your acrylic "jigsaw" (Where your filament goes) to the nozzle (Where the filament exists). This assembly is sold on the Solidoodle store for $59. The assembly is fairly easy to remove if you follow the video on the Solidoodle Wiki. Be careful not to break the acrylic Jigsaw when removing the hot end. The components of the hot end include the Peek (Black thing), clear acrylic spacer, wood spacer block, Brass threaded barrel, heater assembly (aluminum block where the wires go), heater resistor (In the aluminum block), Thermister( reads the temprature of the hot end and is located under the gold colored kapton tape), a black round piece if insulation, some kapton tape, and the nozzle. This assembly can come completely apart and each component can be replaced seperately....

Thanks for all those instructions. However I don't own a torch nor feel comfortable using one. Any plans that would not require playing with fire?

9 Reply by Rocketman

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Re: Trouble Shooting. Extruder won't heat up.

solidoodlesupport wrote:
Rocketman wrote:
elmoret wrote:

It's been covered many times. I mean, there's even a sticky for it:

http://www.soliforum.com/topic/636/hot- … to-repair/


It looks like a really painful process to finding out what is wrong, and I'm worried that afterwards the only thing I might be able to do is replace something that will be costly. I mean I don't even have a multimeter, which will cost me something. I've only had the printer for maybe 2 months and it already looks like the equipment needed to keep it running will cost me more than the machine itself cost. sad I wish there was a technician that I could hire to take care of this business for me because I don't have the technical know-how for this type of thing.

Having a multimeter would just make it certain that what the error was. We get a decent number of hot-ends that can be fixed on the spot. With the multimeter we can check on weather the heating element itself has died.

What brand and model of multimeter should I invest in getting? And assuming it is the "hot end" as was previously said to be the problem 95% of the time, what causes this type of failer? The only real changes I've made was putting in a plexglas ceiling and walls and releveling the platforum, and in doing so needed to put the thermometer back in place under Kapton tape that I needed to order online.

10 Reply by elmoret

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Re: Trouble Shooting. Extruder won't heat up.

http://www.harborfreight.com/7-function … 98025.html

The hotend fails because it's not a great design. It's been covered here on the forums already.

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11 Reply by Rocketman

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Re: Trouble Shooting. Extruder won't heat up.

elmoret wrote:

http://www.harborfreight.com/7-function … 98025.html

The hotend fails because it's not a great design. It's been covered here on the forums already.


Well shoot. I wish I would have known that before. lol. I hope they design it better next time I'm in the market for a 3D printer. But seeing as that this one is hemoraging money from me I can't be sure when that will be. sad

12 Reply by Rocketman

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Re: Trouble Shooting. Extruder won't heat up.

Will repairs of the "hot end" require a torch, because I really don't want to deal with that. I'd rather get new parts or see if I can't send the parts back and have them fix whatever needs fixing.

13 Reply by Gordym

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Re: Trouble Shooting. Extruder won't heat up.

If your hot end is not getting hot any more, you may have to apply some heat. That is why I suggested using a torch. Normally to take apart your hot end to clean it, you just heat it up, then unscrew the nozzle from the hot end while it is still hot. The problem is that the plastic gets hard when it cools and acts like a glue inside the hot end. the only way I've been able to take apart my hot end to clean it is to apply heat otherwise I run the risk of breaking the barrel when unscrewing the nozzle. I haven't needed to use a torch yet because My hot end hasn't stopped heating. You could also try to take the hot end out of the machine and soak it in acetone to free up the hardened plastic to disassemble.

SD2
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MK5 V6

14 Reply by MeshMoth

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Re: Trouble Shooting. Extruder won't heat up.

Can someone tell me what the clay stuff is that they put around the nozzle inside the black sleeve? Also it looks like they glued the sleeve to the peek on mine, or the ABS oozed out the side and stuck everything together. Where can i buy new sleeves?... Better yet where can i buy the ones with just the metal block and no clay looking stuff?

15 Reply by IanJohnson

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Re: Trouble Shooting. Extruder won't heat up.

They sell them at the solidoodle store, though I recommend this one - https://www.hotends.com/index.php?route … duct_id=83

You might need to print a new extruder for it though, I think it might be about .5mm too big for the acrylic.

16 Reply by Rocketman

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Re: Trouble Shooting. Extruder won't heat up.

IanJohnson wrote:

They sell them at the solidoodle store, though I recommend this one - https://www.hotends.com/index.php?route … duct_id=83

You might need to print a new extruder for it though, I think it might be about .5mm too big for the acrylic.


I still can't get a good answer on which multi meter I should invest my money in to see what the problem is. Someone on here suggested a $4 one, and when I e-mailed support they suggested staying away from one that cheap and instead suggested a radioshack model and a high end $120ish model. I can't find the model they mentioned for radioshack, but I suspect it is pricy and of low quality just from knowing we're talking about radioshack. Could someone tell me exactly what the multimeter must be able to do, the degree of percision it requires, and why their suggested model fits the bill?

17 Reply by adrian (edited by adrian 2013-04-17 14:07:29)

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Re: Trouble Shooting. Extruder won't heat up.

A 'good - for what you need here and hobbyist electronics' multimeter would be I'd suggest a 2000 count one (4000 count+ is better though) that does current and AC/DC Voltage. For ease of use auto-ranging. More than anything, you want it to have quality test-leads (often neglected as a big contributor to quality readings on any meter) and ideally be Cat IV protected to be safe around mains AC.. Everything else is a bonus from that point - Multimeters in engineering are a bit like Television Size - Everyone sure would like a 110" one, but the picture isn't that different from a 47" one wink

The one I use day to day for my hacking around with PCB's and microcontrollers etc is this one http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=QM1571 and a cheap chinese 'tweezer' SMD ones..

Have a read of this semi-salesy type but otherwise informative document from Fluke; a brand many consider the Ferrari of modern multimeters; http://support.fluke.com/find-sales/Dow … NG_M_W.PDF

Then really it comes down to 'will you use this more than once?' and if the answer is 'no', get a $30 one... If its 'yes, i can see it will be used about three times a year on the printer alone', then stretch it to a $100 one. If you did this professionally - then you could potentially drop close to a grand for a top quality fluke...

Regardless - be wary of 'cheap' ones on eBay and the low-low-cost RadioShack ones - there is a lot to be said for ensuring if you are trying to measure something to test/calibrate it, then you want to be damn sure you're ruler is accurate! smile

18 Reply by elmoret (edited by elmoret 2013-04-17 13:59:23)

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Re: Trouble Shooting. Extruder won't heat up.

Rocketman wrote:
IanJohnson wrote:

They sell them at the solidoodle store, though I recommend this one - https://www.hotends.com/index.php?route … duct_id=83

You might need to print a new extruder for it though, I think it might be about .5mm too big for the acrylic.


I still can't get a good answer on which multi meter I should invest my money in to see what the problem is. Someone on here suggested a $4 one, and when I e-mailed support they suggested staying away from one that cheap and instead suggested a radioshack model and a high end $120ish model. I can't find the model they mentioned for radioshack, but I suspect it is pricy and of low quality just from knowing we're talking about radioshack. Could someone tell me exactly what the multimeter must be able to do, the degree of percision it requires, and why their suggested model fits the bill?

That $4 one reads within 1% of my $230 Fluke 179...

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19 Reply by adrian (edited by adrian 2013-04-17 14:11:29)

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Re: Trouble Shooting. Extruder won't heat up.

On voltage maybe, but I'd be really surprised on Current or Resistance if that still holds true - particularly on lower amperages in the ma range or resistance values at either end of the sprectrum.. I'm also guessing the $4 one is 2000 count versus the 6000 count of the 179 .. so its a bit like comparing apples and elephants  in terms of accuracy (since +/- 1% accuracy plus 3 counts on 6000 count is very different to +/- 1% plus 1 count on a 2000 count).. oh and true RMS versus averaged reading...

And there is a world of difference between safety ratings.. I have a heap of cheapy DMM's that are fine for benchtop work with low accuracy but I wouldn't be caught dead putting them near anything >12V smile There is a big difference between sticking a Cat IV 600V label on a DMM and it actually *being* Cat IV 600V smile

But hey.. maybe its a really amazing $4 DMM and I'm just talking out my backside - it happens quite regularly smile ... you got a link you can share ?

20 Reply by elmoret

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Re: Trouble Shooting. Extruder won't heat up.

adrian wrote:

On voltage maybe, but I'd be really surprised on Current or Resistance if that still holds true - particularly on lower amperages in the ma range.. I'm also guessing the $4 one is 2000 count versus the 6000 count of the 179 .. so its a bit like comparing apples and elephants  in terms of accuracy (since +/- 1% accuracy plus 3 counts on 6000 count is very different to +/- 1% plus 1 count on a 2000 count).. oh and true RMS versus averaged reading...

And there is a world of difference between safety ratings.. I have a heap of cheapy DMM's that are fine for benchtop work with low accuracy but I wouldn't be caught dead putting them near anything >12V smile There is a big difference between sticking a Cat IV 600V label on a DMM and it actually *being* Cat IV 600V smile

But hey.. maybe its a really amazing $4 DMM and I'm just talking out my backside - it happens quite regularly smile ... you got a link you can share ?

http://www.harborfreight.com/7-function … 98025.html

You're only putting it near 12v - the whole Solidoodle runs on 12v.

The only measurements that need to be accurate are the trim pot voltages. There's no need to measure current anywhere, and measuring heater resistance can be off 10% and still be fine - you're really just looking for ~5 ohms or open circuit. There's no AC, so RMS doesn't matter

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21 Reply by adrian (edited by adrian 2013-04-17 14:36:18)

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Re: Trouble Shooting. Extruder won't heat up.

elmoret wrote:

You're only putting it near 12v - the whole Solidoodle runs on 12v.

The only measurements that need to be accurate are the trim pot voltages. There's no need to measure current anywhere, and measuring heater resistance can be off 10% and still be fine - you're really just looking for ~5 ohms or open circuit. There's no AC, so RMS doesn't matter


Fair call... But I still think that doesn't make it a 'good' DMM, just an 'adequate one' - and I was responding to the question in terms of whats 'a good DMM'. I also was make an assumption that it was better to get something that could be used elsewhere than the Solidoodle without concerns.....

So yeah, happy to concede that the HF job is 'a DMM' and one that will achieve the currently desired goals.. but isn't what one would normally refer to elsewhere as good/great/sound investment in respect to a DMM... at least if I was recommending it myself anyway smile

22 Reply by danny

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Re: Trouble Shooting. Extruder won't heat up.

go get the $4 one!

you're not measure high precision components.

with regard cost, the last time I needed a 9v box battery, I drove to a supermarket and bought 2 for £5 (GBP)

then I bought a multimeter online for £4 GBP from china, it was shipped, and delivered to my door, it had a battery installed and came with a battery... I'm still trying to figure out how they could get two batteries delivered to my door with a tool included cheaper that I could walk into a supermarket and get it.

basically, most of the solidoodle trouble shooting will be, does this have voltage, what is that voltage, does this have continuity, or no continuity/a break.
is this roughly near to that resistance. high precision tools are just not needed!