1

Topic: Help wanted with 3D printer selection

Hello everyone,

I work as a laboratory assistant in motor psychology, and our main goal is to make various and numerous
plastic stimuli for testing visuo-motor cognitive processes. For this reason, we know exactly what we would require
from a 3D printer, and I am hoping that you guys will be able to offer valuable feedback, or at least point us
to the right direction.

Not looking for :

-Anything that produces objects larger than 20x20x20 (cm)
-Colours (indifferent)
-Huge material range (indifferent)


Looking for : (preferences numbered in order of importance)

1. Quality of build (replication of an object must be identical in sizes, no inconsistencies)
2. Non-warping
3. We will be using force sensors inside the printer objects - a printer that can print hollow objects and close them sounds ideal
4. Possible ease of use (the printer itself, we don't mind about the design software, that can be learnt)

Other details :

Budget range : 2,000-3,000 (approximately, will consider flexible deviations from that price range)
Printer size : Desktop, or even larger (if desktop does not meet the above requirements)

Apologies for the amount of information, but that may actually help anyone willing to aid us in our selection.
We would also appreciate some information on what type of printer would best suit our needs (SLS, FDM etc)

Thanks and looking forward to any replies!

2

Re: Help wanted with 3D printer selection

More information is good. From my ownexperience printsover the 20cm range are going to face soem warpage due touneven cooling that 20cm range just fits in the sd3 range however if i were you youwill want larger build areas over and above that to accomadate slightly larger parts. I'd recomend you look at the medal max maybe that has a build area of 9 X 12 X 8 if i recall correctly but some assembly is required its on the lwo end of yoru budget then you can spend extra building an enclosure to help retain heat

also you might want to invest in a new hotend one that can go up to around 300 but if you do that you will want a holder thats not printed plastic as well the plastic could melt.

that will give you a range of printign options from 140c on up to 265 which is what nylon prints at

3

Re: Help wanted with 3D printer selection

Manx wrote:

More information is good. From my ownexperience printsover the 20cm range are going to face soem warpage due touneven cooling that 20cm range just fits in the sd3 range however if i were you youwill want larger build areas over and above that to accomadate slightly larger parts. I'd recomend you look at the medal max maybe that has a build area of 9 X 12 X 8 if i recall correctly but some assembly is required its on the lwo end of yoru budget then you can spend extra building an enclosure to help retain heat

also you might want to invest in a new hotend one that can go up to around 300 but if you do that you will want a holder thats not printed plastic as well the plastic could melt.

that will give you a range of printign options from 140c on up to 265 which is what nylon prints at


Great info, thanks! However, I am not that willing to go into engineering the parts myself to improve the product, a ready-made one would suffice. In all honesty, the objects we are looking into making will never be larger than 15x15x15 cm, so even a desktop printer would do. I would prefer if the model would not require tweaking (part-wise). My employer was thinking of the Replicator 2x, but after I read some pretty negative reviewes on its extruder(s) breaking down, I decided to ask if there is anything similar that is more reliable.

4

Re: Help wanted with 3D printer selection

every printer is going to require tweeking in all honesty. at 150 cm the sd3 is perfect and your budget would allow for 2-3 printers and enclosures that way youwould never be without a printer unless you broke everyone.

heh why am i haveing flashbacks to the original star wars mmo where you build a tool to make a better tool to make a better tool .... lol some peopel may get the refrence ...damn you sony for ruining it

5

Re: Help wanted with 3D printer selection

Manx wrote:

every printer is going to require tweeking in all honesty. at 150 cm the sd3 is perfect and your budget would allow for 2-3 printers and enclosures that way youwould never be without a printer unless you broke everyone.

heh why am i haveing flashbacks to the original star wars mmo where you build a tool to make a better tool to make a better tool .... lol some peopel may get the refrence ...damn you sony for ruining it

Hahahaa spot on!  smile (sony truly destroyed it to no end)

So in other words, the sd3 is what you are recommending for my application. Could I have your honest opinion on the CubeX by Cubify? My employer is somewhat keen on it, and I would like to inquire further if you have any feedback. Thanks again!

6

Re: Help wanted with 3D printer selection

As much as I've come to dislike the company, I think the maker bottom replicator 2 (not X) is right up your alley. It will be pretty much ready to go out of the box. It only uses pla but it is supposed to be pretty easy to get the same results every time. And with any FDM printer, you can put a pause in the g code insert whatever you want in the part, then finish the print.
Depending on print size, an sd2 expert might work. It's a lot less money. Can print abs or pla, and has a heated build platform and an enclosure. Software will be harder to use. But not something you couldn't overcome.
I'm not overly impressed with the cubify. Small build platform, proprietary (expensive!) filiment cartridge. But it does have very user friendly software.

7

Re: Help wanted with 3D printer selection

Perhaps you could stick to PLA printing only? Then you won't need to worry about warpage so much

+1 for Makerbot extruders being unreliable.

8

Re: Help wanted with 3D printer selection

Look at Ultimaker as well, since it is in your price range.  They have a reputation for being best in quality and reliability.  Avoid the cube, they use the printer ink model, with very expensive filament in chipped cartridges.  Also I've heard that there is far less control which is great for simplicity and usability, but settings are not one size fits all.

9

Re: Help wanted with 3D printer selection

I have an Aluminatus on order from Trinity Labs.  It is just above $2,000, and can handle ABS, PLA, and Nylon (as can the Solidoodles).  In theory, you'll get a more reliable printer for the money, but the industry is young.  If you were to buy 3 SD3 printers, you would have backup, redundancy, and plenty of build space.  But you will have to fiddle.

10

Re: Help wanted with 3D printer selection

Also, Makergear's Mosaic has a great reputation. I only know that I've liked their groovemount hot ends & plastic supplies.

Don: Folger Tech 2020 Kossel Rev A + Borosilicate + Snow Effector
        Davinci 1.0 + Repetier : Filastruder
        SD3 + RAMPS + Lawsy Carriages + E3D + Borosilicate + ... : Cupcake

11

Re: Help wanted with 3D printer selection

If you have the budget, and are mostly concerned about accurate production, then you really should be looking at either

formlab, or, b9creator. Those are the two viable resin-curing printers. Be aware they are fairly substantially weaker than ABS.  They also have noticeably higher material costs, especially compared to the cheap ABS suppliers.  But the material is still not insanely expensive.


They do however make beautiful "prints." In some ways they're mechanically simpler, so you should not have to deal with something like a clogged nozzle (as you do in the solidoodle sometimes.)

12 (edited by nickythegreek 2013-03-08 01:41:36)

Re: Help wanted with 3D printer selection

Makergear's M2 is a great machine and has a fully assembled option at $1750. The ultimaker is good machine, but outside the USA (if the is a concern of yours).  It is also only available in kit form.  So the M2 wins there.

But I also second the idea of having multiple Solidoodle 3's if you are going to need to pump out a bunch of prototypes (prints can take longer then you might think) and you can have the peace of mind of a backup machine if one goes down (don't undervalue this if you have deadlines to keep). 

If you MUST print different colors at the same time, the Makerbot Replicator 2 or 2X are the most viable options for you.

An ABS capable printer might serve your needs well, as you can print your designs in parts and weld them together using a variety of methods (this can satisfy your sensor needs). Plus it can be easily polished and cleaned up using different acetone techniques.

But no matter what 3d printer you get, someone is going to end up learning more about the mechanical nuisances of the machine than they might currently think.  Make sure someone is up to that job or you could have some expensive paperweights or sub-quality prints on your hands.

13

Re: Help wanted with 3D printer selection

helagak wrote:

I'm not overly impressed with the cubify. Small build platform, proprietary (expensive!) filiment cartridge. But it does have very user friendly software.

Indeed expensive filaments, and I unfortunately saw some inconsistencies in some sample images on-line, looked like slight warpage (nothing that cannot be fixed with a cutter, but I also saw some niches, which I think will be harder to fill in after the job's done).

lawsy wrote:

Perhaps you could stick to PLA printing only? Then you won't need to worry about warpage so much

So using PLA instead of ABS reduces the chances of warping?

Tomek wrote:

formlab, or, b9creator. Those are the two viable resin-curing printers. Be aware they are fairly substantially weaker than ABS.

When you are saying "weaker", do you mean the durability of the final product? If yes, could you humor me and imagine a hollow cube with 0.5cm side thickness? If one grasps it to lift it up, could it easily break? (your best guestimation will be appreciated)

Thanks again to everyone who is taking the time!

14

Re: Help wanted with 3D printer selection

Do you really need to print the whole object all at once?
Can you assemble the printed objects from smaller pieces?

You could, for example, create the objects so they interlock as alignment for gluing together.

Danger: 'Addams Family' sense of humor.

15

Re: Help wanted with 3D printer selection

jerseydevil wrote:

Do you really need to print the whole object all at once?
Can you assemble the printed objects from smaller pieces?

You could, for example, create the objects so they interlock as alignment for gluing together.

Absolutely I could, I am now just worrying that the material might break if grasped with slightly more force, as Tomek suggested. That could be a significant drawback.

16 (edited by jerseydevil 2013-03-09 16:32:38)

Re: Help wanted with 3D printer selection

Diterpenoid wrote:
jerseydevil wrote:

Do you really need to print the whole object all at once?
Can you assemble the printed objects from smaller pieces?

You could, for example, create the objects so they interlock as alignment for gluing together.

Absolutely I could, I am now just worrying that the material might break if grasped with slightly more force, as Tomek suggested. That could be a significant drawback.

If you print something out of ABS, nylon or PLA it'll be plenty strong enough to grasp as long as it's not hollow and thin wall and the temperatures involved do not weaken it.  Keep in mind how strong an egg is and it's both basically hollow and thin walled.

Though it is out of your price range as a purchase, laser sintering could produce metal objects plenty strong enough (you can have this done for you online).  So you could start with 3D printing to verify the design and then send it off to be made.

However, let us think outside the 3D printing cube (pun intended).  You might be able to sculpt the objects from ShapeLock, InstaMorph (whatever we call it this week) pellets after you boil them down and let them solidify a bit.  Then you end up with an entirely solid mass unless you introduce air bubbles or voids yourself.  If you want to say make a hollow ball, make 2 pieces press the hollow into both and then assemble them with whatever you want in the middle.  This has the advantage of not requiring more skill than playing with clay and you don't even require a kiln.  Plus you can easily melt it down and reform it any time you like.  Want more of them?  Stick the end result in a 3D scanner and there you go.

Just to give you an idea.  I've seen robots that weigh 100+ lbs drive around on 3D printed gears.  The question of strength can come down to the mechnical knowledge of the designer of the printed object.

Also if you really need strength and you design strange shapes you could pour it yourself out of aluminum using some homebrew casting.  For anyone that's never handled liquid metal though, that's probably very trial and error.  (Yes I realize that this environment he's describing does not lend itself to operating a forge, but you can melt aluminum on a barbeque).

Danger: 'Addams Family' sense of humor.

17

Re: Help wanted with 3D printer selection

jerseydevil wrote:
Diterpenoid wrote:
jerseydevil wrote:

Do you really need to print the whole object all at once?
Can you assemble the printed objects from smaller pieces?

You could, for example, create the objects so they interlock as alignment for gluing together.

Absolutely I could, I am now just worrying that the material might break if grasped with slightly more force, as Tomek suggested. That could be a significant drawback.

If you print something out of ABS, nylon or PLA it'll be plenty strong enough to grasp as long as it's not hollow and thin wall and the temperatures involved do not weaken it.  Keep in mind how strong an egg is and it's both basically hollow and thin walled.

Though it is out of your price range as a purchase, laser sintering could produce metal objects plenty strong enough (you can have this done for you online).  So you could start with 3D printing to verify the design and then send it off to be made.

However, let us think outside the 3D printing cube (pun intended).  You might be able to sculpt the objects from ShapeLock, InstaMorph (whatever we call it this week) pellets after you boil them down and let them solidify a bit.  Then you end up with an entirely solid mass unless you introduce air bubbles or voids yourself.  If you want to say make a hollow ball, make 2 pieces press the hollow into both and then assemble them with whatever you want in the middle.  This has the advantage of not requiring more skill than playing with clay and you don't even require a kiln.  Plus you can easily melt it down and reform it any time you like.  Want more of them?  Stick the end result in a 3D scanner and there you go.

Just to give you an idea.  I've seen robots that weigh 100+ lbs drive around on 3D printed gears.  The question of strength can come down to the mechnical knowledge of the designer of the printed object.

Also if you really need strength and you design strange shapes you could pour it yourself out of aluminum using some homebrew casting.  For anyone that's never handled liquid metal though, that's probably very trial and error.  (Yes I realize that this environment he's describing does not lend itself to operating a forge, but you can melt aluminum on a barbeque).


Great suggestions, even though they are more targeted to a hobbyist, or someone who wants to make in career in 3D printing technologies. For my purpose, production of scientific stimuli, to feel like I am handling clay is a no-no. I need mechanically superior production, with great detail. The strength is not so much a requirement, as long as a SIMPLE grasp will not break the material. Ferrous metals (and metals in general) are unfortuantely a no-no as well, they interfere with the rest of the lab's equipment (magnetic motion trackers).

Still, thanks for the response, was very fun imagining what I could potentially do to explore that possibility!

18 (edited by jerseydevil 2013-03-11 20:51:05)

Re: Help wanted with 3D printer selection

Diterpenoid wrote:

Great suggestions, even though they are more targeted to a hobbyist, or someone who wants to make in career in 3D printing technologies. For my purpose, production of scientific stimuli, to feel like I am handling clay is a no-no. I need mechanically superior production, with great detail. The strength is not so much a requirement, as long as a SIMPLE grasp will not break the material. Ferrous metals (and metals in general) are unfortuantely a no-no as well, they interfere with the rest of the lab's equipment (magnetic motion trackers).

Still, thanks for the response, was very fun imagining what I could potentially do to explore that possibility!

The problem I see from working with a variety of printers is that most things that print ABS, PLA, or nylon in your price range will likely produce a surface texture that is characteristic of 3D printing.  You could use acetone to help with that but that's a subtractive process and again depending on how you do it will impact your ability to reproduce dimensionally identical models.

As others have suggested the closest solutions will be stereolithography or machines that use a clay base.  A stereolithographic machine (even the cheapest which are in KickStarter now) is out of your price range.  The price for that accuracy is durability.  If your object is mechanically designed properly you can alter the structural durability.  I have plenty of examples that were printed using either process that will withstand basic handling but are not suited for making gears or other wearing parts.

Again I see little stopping anyone from starting with a basic printer and then after verifying the design sending out the files for production.  Initially I would recommend making a few samples to get an idea of the durability of the process.  Start with truss and voids.  I am very confident that you will find a way to produce what you desire though it might not appreciate being dropped or being submerged in liquid.

Another option I can offer instead of removing material to smooth the printed surface with a solvent like acetone.  You could cover the surface in a building primer, an autobody glaze or rubber like paint (bedliner, PlastiDip, that stuff they show on TV, or LiquidLatex).  Any of these would fill the voids between the layers on the surface of a printed object and at the same time add resistance to liquid intrusion.  The impact on the dimensional accuracy would only be limited by your control on the process unlike removing material with acetone in which you will have the impact of the material you printed to consider.

I know what you want is possible to save you time and money perhaps my most useful suggestion is get samples till you find one that appears to suit your needs.

As an aside, casting in copper or bronze is just as easy as aluminum and given the amount of copper floating about I would be surprised if it interfered with your magnetic sensors.  If it did there would be no way to put the printer or anything else with electricity in the room.

Danger: 'Addams Family' sense of humor.

19

Re: Help wanted with 3D printer selection

Stereolithography is exactly what I will go after then. The miicraft is around $2500 and even the most expnsive upcoming Form 1, will be $3300, both well within my price range. Considering the promises they made of affordable resin ($150 per liter), that will be the way to go.

Thanks for all the help, dearly appreciated!!

20 (edited by jerseydevil 2013-03-11 21:18:56)

Re: Help wanted with 3D printer selection

Diterpenoid wrote:

Stereolithography is exactly what I will go after then. The miicraft is around $2500 and even the most expnsive upcoming Form 1, will be $3300, both well within my price range. Considering the promises they made of affordable resin ($150 per liter), that will be the way to go.

Thanks for all the help, dearly appreciated!!

Thanks for the reference to Miicraft.  I hadn't seen that one yet.  It's got kind of a tiny build area however.
Build size (footprint): 43 mm (X) x 27 mm (Y) x 180 mm (Z)

Where as the Form1 is about 100mm x 100mm x 165mm.

Above you mentioned that your average print will typically be about 150mm x 150mm x 150mm obviously you can break things up into pieces but still that's something to consider.  You may want to inquire with these companies if they can offer you any solutions to how to part your models down.  I can see parting down solid geometric objects in the slicing process, but more complicated shapes might require some tinkering on a part by part basis.

Also this is something to consider.  FormLabs hit a hiccup with 3D Systems suing them for patent infringement.  As far as I know the early orders are slotted to go out sometime in April 2013.  So you might want to consider that it could be an issue for you or not.

The last SLA system I worked on was definitely not something for the home user and it was not cheap to operate.  I've noticed that these projects have been clever to avoid addressing some questions about the output they can produce.  I hope that when they hit the shelves they really present the market competition they appear to be.

Danger: 'Addams Family' sense of humor.

21

Re: Help wanted with 3D printer selection

the b9creator's build area is 102 x 77 mm at 100um resolution and can slice as thin as 6.4 microns.

b9creator dot com 

I think they are doing a second batch now on kikstarter.

jb