1 (edited by geoffro 2017-05-05 12:21:08)

Topic: Not a great start

My filastruder 2.0 just arrived, and boy I'd love to build it.

I did expect a pretty rough DIY kit but was not prepared of roughness to this degree, and I am referring mostly to the instructions which seem to assume you have built one before.

First problem, not ground breaking but makes me reluctant to make any further purchase...
My 2.0 kit came with MDF cut parts? I was under the impression you had gone to Laser cut acrylic and my serial number denotes my machine should be inclusive of all the updates - I clearly have MDF cut out parts here but a serial number in the high 2800's
(EDIT Im an idiot, the black soot on the fingers and coverings/ look of MDF had me fooled, I do have acrylic)

Secondly, References to parts without images has you guessing every single step of the way what you are referring to and then we get to step 10 which makes no sense to me and thats why I am posting this.

Step 10 tells me to push the auger against the motor with one hand and then check the Hex adapter on the coupling can move 1-2mm.

Does it mean push sideways TOWARD the motor? or push down toward the gearbox?

No matter what I do nothing will slide anywhere because the fit of the hex adapter on the auger is so tight - and the hex adapter on the gearbox coupling is rattling around like an old car... sure it turns 1-2mm because it is so loose before the gearbox coupling actually catches it - but it aint sliding up and down like the picture suggests - and even if it did  - how can it even move if you are pushing down on the auger?

Is there some video or something I can watch because so far this has been a really dissapointing experience. Even the cheapest manufacturers can include a USB stick or brief instruction guide, instead I have to filter through  a tonne of them because I don't even know what kit I have.

If I had the laser cut parts I would know - but I dont.. so now I sort of have to back track through the updates to see what I got.

2

Re: Not a great start

Hi Geoff,

Based on your photo on Facebook, you do have lasercut acrylic parts. Have you peeled off the protective paper coating on the parts yet?

As for step 10, I've attached a video of what you're looking for. It is normal for the fit on the gear motor's shaft to be a bit loose, this allows for some minor misalignment during assembly. But the point of the 1-2mm of axial play is to ensure that there is no way thrust force can be transmitted to the gearbox. If you are confident of that it is OK to proceed. I welcome any suggestions for improvement of the instructions. I'm happy to answer questions as you assemble.

As for finding the instruction guides - they are listed by serial number with the latest versions right at the top. I'm sorry if that was confusing. We don't include a paper copy because we've found most customers look at them online and then the paper gets wasted.

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3

Re: Not a great start

Thanks,

Ok so I now see it is acrylic, sorry - the black soot that was rubbing off on my fingers from the coating i've only ever had with MDF, admittedly I jumped the gun on that one.

Thanks for posting the video, but there is no way in hell mine is sliding like that - I can barely fit it on the end of the auger (not without a hammer - im serious)

so I guess I have to file the crap out of the auger?

4 (edited by geoffro 2017-05-04 13:23:25)

Re: Not a great start

Here is an example of how poorly mine fits

Yes, I have filed it out and got it fitting, but I guess thats the sort of thing I was talking about in the instructions besides lack of diagrams.  I surely couldn't be the first person to have an il-fitting hex adaptor? gee that would be bad luck!

I understand the need for not wasting paper etc - and to be honest I read all my manuals on an Ipad or similar - it's not the format that I was referring to, more the content or lack of.

I understand making changes with every revisions can be challenging but I have learned more off googling other people's experiences in building theirs  (this has been the best one I've found in regards to actually showing pictures of what is being discussed.  http://32b.it/filastruder-lets-start-assemblying )

I am not an mechanic, the limits of my mechanical abilities is building Robots or 3D printers pretty much so when you say put the flange on the whatsi-do and then push that on the doo-dar, it doesn't make alot of sense. I am more electronically inclined so for me the problem that I see most people having here is the opposite. Alot of mechanics here but not electricians, I am the opposite.

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5

Re: Not a great start

It looks like you received an auger that has hex flats a hair on the large side, and a hex socket that is a hair on the small side. That won't affect anything in operation, though.

The sliding is just one way of checking the distances. You could either file the end of the auger (shouldn't take long, maybe a few minutes) or just check that the hex socket isn't bottoming out on the gearmotor shaft. If you're worried that it is close, there should be an extra set of 1/4" washers that can be installed between the chassis and gearbox to backspace the motor a bit.

6

Re: Not a great start

Thanks, I was actually editing my post as you replied.

I have spent a good 20 mins filing it carefully so that I don't go too far and make it loose, but it seems to be ok now.

Hopefully the build will continue smoothly!

thanks again

7 (edited by geoffro 2017-05-04 15:03:47)

Re: Not a great start

Ok so have run into my next problem.

Step 15, my Auger sticks out 12.82mm, not the required 10mm

Im assuming this is bad as it tells me to contact support

There is no way I can make it shorter without cutting it more.

**

Edit
Never mind, found this one

"Don't worry too much about the nozzle to auger clearance, just measure how much of the auger sticks out of the barrel. The target is around 5, maybe 10mm. If you have longer than that sticking out, use the 4 extra acrylic spacers to move the gear motor backwards, by installing the spacers between the gearbox and chassis"


Edit
No screws provided for stall board, no M3 in pack and no larger ones to affix the stall board to the gearbox.

8

Re: Not a great start

12.82mm sounds like a lot. Could you post a photo or two of your setup so far? I'm thinking perhaps some spacers got left out of the assembly process or something.

Moving the gearmotor backwards won't help in this situation if you did step 1 fully (slide collar all the way onto the auger). That bit about acrylic spacers is for v2.1, not v2.1a. v2.1a should have resolved the need for that.

9 (edited by geoffro 2017-05-04 15:06:32)

Re: Not a great start

To resolve the 12mm problem I used the extra 4 spacers, so now there is 3 spacers between the block and the first piece of acrylic instead of 2 - I have just enough length on the 4 bolts to still attach the pipe and bolt it down. This leaves me with 5.2mm

I am slowly getting there - missing quite a few screws, notably the stall housing M3 and the other screws to fix the stall housing acrylic piece to the back of the motor.

10

Re: Not a great start

Well, im into my 3rd hour and still getting there...

After scavenging for the missing screws around the house, I came to the realisation that using 3 spacers to decrease the amount of auger sticking out the end of the pipe was not a good idea.

By doing this, it shifts the entire motor carriage backward and you now block the two left holes that are used to fix the acrylic together.

http://soliforum.com/i/?DlSovYu.jpg

11

Re: Not a great start

Would not recommend using the extra spacers but if you want to, put them between the lasercut part and the flange.

I'd recommend just the metal washers between the flange and lasercut part, that'd get you close to 10mm. 10mm isn't a hard limit, 11mm is fine.

Screws for attaching the stall protection board's bracket to the gearmotor are the same screws that were used to mount the gearmotor to the chassis. Should be 6 total.

Should be 2x M3 screws in the main mechanical bag and 2x M3 nuts in the stall protection board's ESD bag for attaching the stall protection board to the stall protection board bracket.

12 (edited by geoffro 2017-05-04 17:05:40)

Re: Not a great start

"Should be 2x M3 screws in the main mechanical bag and 2x M3 nuts in the stall protection board's ESD bag for attaching the stall protection board to the stall protection board bracket."

Yeah I figured there should be, but there isn't. I have a billion m3's thats not a prob, it was the 2 for the motor casing that were not there - there is no other m4 screws in the kit, or unless I am mistaking you and you mean put m3's through an M4 hole and just use a nut to fasten them.

13

Re: Not a great start

http://soliforum.com/i/?czS1JMf.png

M3 screws hold the stall protection board to the lasercut bracket. M5 screws hold the bracket to the gearmotor.

M5 screws are the same screws that were used to attach the gearmotor to the aluminum chassis.

14

Re: Not a great start

speaking of the distance I had the same distance  12mm or so extra showing.
I added  the  extra spacers to the motor moved the collar so it was close to 85 mm. "right up against the drill bit of the auger"
left plenty of space for the motor coupling to move 5-8 mm or so.
http://www.robotrebels.org/gallery/16_01_05_17_1_22_02.jpeg

I just need to  remember to slide that coupling over before closing up.

@geoffro when you added the barrel,auger and front plate, did you fix the side panels and the four long bolts  before tightening the  barrel and front panel, just a chance your alignment maybe off which would prevent you shoving all the case bolts through the casing.. thought I mention this as it got me 





"

15

Re: Not a great start

jinxycob, do you have a 2.1 or a 2.1a kit? Geoff has a 2.1a kit, which slides the shaft collar all the way onto the auger (until it can slide no more).

16

Re: Not a great start

Geoff has a 2.1a kit, which slides the shaft collar all the way onto the auger (until it can slide no more).

yea its the 2.1a  have to recheck but thought it stated 80 mm in the manual?.  i was rounding the 85 "until it can slide no more" is what I did thou

17 (edited by geoffro 2017-05-05 01:07:31)

Re: Not a great start

When the machine is lying normally on it's base, is the Auger meant to be able to move so far it leaves the hex adaptor? I never noticed it when it was standing upright, but once I put it back down I noticed not only does my hex adapter cleanly have 1-2mm of play now - but the auger can actually be pushed completely out of the hex adaptor before it is stopped by the nozzle.

"@geoffro when you added the barrel,auger and front plate, did you fix the side panels and the four long bolts  before tightening the  barrel and front panel, just a chance your alignment maybe off which would prevent you shoving all the case bolts through the casing.. thought I mention this as it got me 

I will give that a go thanks, easier than undoing the entire thing again!

elmoret wrote:

http://soliforum.com/i/?czS1JMf.png

M3 screws hold the stall protection board to the lasercut bracket. M5 screws hold the bracket to the gearmotor.

M5 screws are the same screws that were used to attach the gearmotor to the aluminum chassis.

I have 8x  M5 screws

4 x that hold the alum bracket on the gearbox
4 that fix the acrylic panels to eachother (long black ones)

I have no other M5 screws.

But if you are saying use the existing M5's to fix the board on, the photo shows you are attaching them to the end of the block - the opposite end of the motor, the two holes we did not use screws for.

I have found some screws but really, I don't want to spend any more time discussing why they were not there - that's all I was stating, they were not in the kit. They didnt fall out, the bag was intact but as I said, missing M3's and the extra M5's for the board.

But I blame myself, you did say check all components were there before commencing, I just assumed they would be.

As for the 3rd spacer being used, I am confused because "Would not recommend using the extra spacers "  conflicts with advice you gave in another thread:

elmoret wrote:

You're definitely not an idiot! If anything I am for not explaining this better in the instructions. Noted and I'll revise accordingly.

There are extra spacers provided to help with this situation. This stems from the fact that there's a lot of tolerances all stacking together - how long the auger is cut, how far the barrel goes into the auger before it bottoms out, how long the barrel is, etc.

In your situation I would recommend setting the shaft collar at 90mm, and using one set of spacers between the motor and the chassis.

The main bolts are the correct length, the ones in the photos were during the prototyping phase when I was still working out how much length was needed. By the way even if the bolts were longer you couldn't just put more spacers on, as that would shift the whole enclosure over 6.5mm.

18

Re: Not a great start

geoffro wrote:

When the machine is lying normally on it's base, is the Auger meant to be able to move so far it leaves the hex adaptor? I never noticed it when it was standing upright, but once I put it back down I noticed not only does my hex adapter cleanly have 1-2mm of play now - but the auger can actually be pushed completely out of the hex adaptor before it is stopped by the nozzle.

That's normal. All of the force during extrusion drives the auger towards the gearmotor. Once plastics has been run through the machine once, the auger can't move back and forth anymore. This is described in Step 15.

geoffro wrote:

As for the 3rd spacer being used, I am confused because "Would not recommend using the extra spacers "  conflicts with advice you gave in another thread

That's for a previous version.

19 (edited by genesat1 2017-05-05 02:49:36)

Re: Not a great start

When you put plastic in what happens is it actually wants to push your augur backwards and TOWARDS the gearbox (like it's trying to push the augur out of the barrel).  The reason this is bad is because inside the gearbox is a gear, and when forces are pushing on that gear it gets shoved back and starts rubbing on the metal casing - eats your gear up, makes you stall from the friction of that, etc.)

That's what the the whole shaft collar is for - and what testing for movement is for.  What you are doing is trying to simulate the plastic trying to push the augur towards the gearbox/motor by pushing on it (just like the plastic will do when it's loaded in and trying to push the augur backwards towards the motor), and at the same time you're trying to make sure the hex socket can move back and forth (not up and down, but back and forth towards and away from the motor).  The idea being if the shaft collar and everything is in the right place you will be able to move that hex socket even when the augur is pushed out to the point that the bearing is up against the frame.  Once you have plastic in it the whole thing becomes a much greater affair, so that's why the instructions say to test it before putting any plastic in.

Different version of the kit include augurs of different lengths - that's why what is recommended for one is not for another.  The whole goal is just to make sure it isn't pushing backwards against the motor/gearbox tightly while you're actively trying to push it that direction (that the thrust bearing and collar are stopping it from doing so), and that it's not sticking out of the barrel too far either.

20 (edited by geoffro 2017-05-05 13:28:16)

Re: Not a great start

Ahh i get ya, thanks. Thats ok as long as its not being pushed toward the nozzle im ok, otherwise she would fall out.

Well, Im stuffed anyway now .. got to the point of the electronics install and the thermocoupler is broken at the sensor end - seems nothing wants to go right with this, a 1-2 hour build has been triple that so far and I havent even turned the dang thing on. 

From what im reading any K-type -50c-250c should be ok for it?

http://soliforum.com/i/?SyKFQp8.jpg

I think the electronics part of the manual is fine, the wording is easy to follow - but there is nothing about being careful about the PID squishing the wires up against the spinning auger... or besides a finished photo, the best way to actually assembly the acrylic section without putting it together all crooked.. it really does feel like a blind build to some extent and only compacted now by a bad part. I really have never had this much bad luck with any kit sad

Also my PID is practically touching the auger when you slide it underneath.. is it meant to be that close?

21 (edited by jinxycob 2017-05-05 13:44:42)

Re: Not a great start

but there is nothing about being careful about the PID squishing the wires up against the spinning auger

   just doesnt have to happen, yea it looks tight in there! use an external terminal block kept the wires to a minimum inside for me
      http://www.robotrebels.org/gallery/16_28_04_17_5_23_35.jpeg
     you could run the filament fan leads outside/ around the chassis just fine.

bad luck with the K sensor.

22

Re: Not a great start

Yeah good idea with the terminal block. Since I have to undo everything to put the new thermocouple on I am going to rewire everything to the outside, it's just too squishy for my liking in there.

The Aluminium block really could do with a hole in the bottom of it too smile

23 (edited by XmodAlloy 2017-05-05 16:07:37)

Re: Not a great start

Question, are there two lasercut spacers behind your lasercut face-plate or three? Behind the four-bolt flange.

EDIT: I need to read more fully into these things...

First, did you put the grey-black plastic spacer behind the thrust bearing (the thing with little rollers)? If so, remove that. That might get you close to the 10mm mark without the extra lasercut spacers behind the flange.

Second, make doubly sure that the collar (the one that's tightened around the auger shaft with a hex key) is butted up as far to the front of the auger as possible when it's loose. Tighten it there. This will also help alleviate that problem. If this and the spacer removal are done and the shaft still sticks out too much (when you're pushing on it to compress the thrust bearing), then put the lasercut spacers back in right behind the flange and between the front face-plate.

Third, the hex-shaft on the auger can be pretty darn loose on the hex-coupler that connects it to the motor. Make sure it can slide easily.

24 (edited by geoffro 2017-05-05 17:15:58)

Re: Not a great start

XmodAlloy wrote:

Question, are there two lasercut spacers behind your lasercut face-plate or three? Behind the four-bolt flange.

EDIT: I need to read more fully into these things...

First, did you put the grey-black plastic spacer behind the thrust bearing (the thing with little rollers)? If so, remove that. That might get you close to the 10mm mark without the extra lasercut spacers behind the flange.

Second, make doubly sure that the collar (the one that's tightened around the auger shaft with a hex key) is butted up as far to the front of the auger as possible when it's loose. Tighten it there. This will also help alleviate that problem. If this and the spacer removal are done and the shaft still sticks out too much (when you're pushing on it to compress the thrust bearing), then put the lasercut spacers back in right behind the flange and between the front face-plate.

Third, the hex-shaft on the auger can be pretty darn loose on the hex-coupler that connects it to the motor. Make sure it can slide easily.

Well, thats a small issue with the auger sticking out too far, I can fiddle around with spacers/washers etc and eventually get it to 10mm fine - its the acrylic that doesn't fit properly after that.

My acrylic wants to twist a little and won't let me put the 4 x m5 long black screws through the side panels, the aluminium block is always in the way of one side and blocks the bolts exit.

I might actually redesign a new housing for this thing, I really don't like the way it's coming together and I don't see why I couldn't print one that is both large enough to fit the PID comfortably without squishing everything and also will allow me to get all the spacing correct without having to do all this stuffing around. I am not sure why at 2.1version of the kit it is still so rough in it's build state? I was sort of hoping that by waiting this long most of the problems were ironed out but I seem to be getting kicked in the butt.

If you scroll up you will see my hex adapter was way too tight and had to be filed down, but even still its not as loose as I would like so I am going to have to re-do that again as it's getting stuck/jammed on the auger and wont budge on the odd occasion.

25

Re: Not a great start

geoffro wrote:

I might actually redesign a new housing for this thing, I really don't like the way it's coming together and I don't see why I couldn't print one that is both large enough to fit the PID comfortably without squishing everything and also will allow me to get all the spacing correct without having to do all this stuffing around.

For the laser cut part sure - that's just cosmetics and you can do whatever you want for that (or not even use it at all if you didn't want to).  For the actual metal part though you'll want to still use that - the motor would rip apart a plastic piece (all those forces it's using to push the plastic out are also trying to twist the motor the other direction).