1

Topic: Walls Breaking

This is the 4th try and breaks at the same transition, without much effort.
The rest of the object is strong.
Model is clam shell enclosure. 2 halfs.
6:30 hr print/ea.
Used 2 diff PLA, 2 diff ABS. 2 diff slicers.
Avg speed is 40mm/s. Start print is 35mm/s
25% infill. Last one, blue ABS at 50%.
Upright walls are 2mm thick, .8 shell thickness, 15% infill overlap, .3mm layer ht.
All prints come out flawless.

Ive run out of solutions.

ABS 50% infill. Print stopped due to power outage.
http://soliforum.com/i/?nTc1Z5Y.jpg

http://soliforum.com/i/?glkNcuX.jpg

PLA 25% infill. Glue marks where wall breaks.
http://soliforum.com/i/?PTEThd7.jpg

DaV1.0  10/13
Repetier FW 0.92, Solidify3D

2

Re: Walls Breaking

Maybe the problem is the actual design. Try making it so the over hang is part of the wall bay making the wall the tickness of the overhang and the remove the area below the overhang instead of the wall and overhang being seperate parts.

Printing since 2009 and still love it!
Anycubic 4MAX best $225 ever invested.
Voxelabs Proxima SLA. 6 inch 2k Mono LCD.
Anycubic Predator, massive Delta machine. 450 x 370 print envelope.

3

Re: Walls Breaking

^What Carl said...

You also might want to try something like this:

http://soliforum.com/i/?kBizv8T.png

SD2 - Stock - Enclosure - Heated Bed - Glass Plate - Auto Fire Extinguisher
Ord Bot Hadron - RAMPS 1.4 - Bulldog XL - E3D v6 - 10" x 10" PCB Heated Build w/SSR - Glass Plate
Thanks for All of Your Help!

4

Re: Walls Breaking

After the 2nd print , it did come to mind, reinforcing the wall.

But, what bothers me, is that the wall itself is not easy to crack.
It could bend about 20 deg or so in half, before it breaks at a layer.
Also, printed only the 2mm wall. No prob.
So, I dont think its a temperature prob.  or maybe...?

ABS -255  PLA 230
Going to ck hotend temp w/ thermocouple thermometer.
Using an ole Simpson 388 analog.

Also, may try re-orienting on the bed 90 deg or 45 ? Maybe, its the slicer.
dunno.

DaV1.0  10/13
Repetier FW 0.92, Solidify3D

5

Re: Walls Breaking

The problem is your design.. You want to eliminate interfaces by making the part with as many solid pieces as possible. Instead of making a vertical wall then adding a horizontal piece to make the overhang. You should make a wall that is the width of the overhang as well. The cut away the section under the overhang leaving a wall in your desired shape with an integral overhang. That way there is no interface.. Your slicer is probably seeing it as two parts just touching rather than one piece and the only reason they stick at all is due to the previous layer still being hot. You could also try to overlap the wall and overhang by at least a millimeter or more so the slicer sees them as one piece.

Printing since 2009 and still love it!
Anycubic 4MAX best $225 ever invested.
Voxelabs Proxima SLA. 6 inch 2k Mono LCD.
Anycubic Predator, massive Delta machine. 450 x 370 print envelope.

6

Re: Walls Breaking

"Your slicer is probably seeing it as two parts just touching rather than one piece"

Sounds logical. On the inside of the wall, where the transition starts(breaks), has this faint line.

In the modeling prog, I make sure that the extruded piece is merged.

But not following.
Poor design for 3d printing, or just a poor design ?
http://soliforum.com/i/?baj7QBP.jpg
http://soliforum.com/i/?grxknV4.jpg

DaV1.0  10/13
Repetier FW 0.92, Solidify3D

7 (edited by mark.burton 2016-03-08 02:10:16)

Re: Walls Breaking

I don't think he is trying to have a overhang its supposed to be a vertical wall. it just looks like where it broke its laying on the side.  and he just left them there for the photo. its just the walls are delaminating due to the lateral force


Once you get past the bottom portion of the tray where all 4 sides are printed and you just have the two vertical walls and this is where he is having issues. However due to the way it is layered its going to be weak to lateral forces left to right and strong to front to back.

You could reorientate the piece so that the shells print front to back. this would make it more resistant to left to right lateral forces and while it would be weaker front to back it would still be stronger over all then the way it is currently printed.  however you would need to print with supports as the front wall of the tray would be the bottom and the back wall of the tray would be the top as far as the print is concerned

8

Re: Walls Breaking

How many perimeter walls are you using? I would never use less than three for anything that needed to be structural.

Printing since 2009 and still love it!
Anycubic 4MAX best $225 ever invested.
Voxelabs Proxima SLA. 6 inch 2k Mono LCD.
Anycubic Predator, massive Delta machine. 450 x 370 print envelope.

9 (edited by knucklbustr 2016-03-08 03:09:41)

Re: Walls Breaking

.8, so that 2. (.4 nozzle)
1.2 would be 3

Before I go insane, need to eliminate possible hardware issues.
This could be classic de-lamination. Slowing speeds doesnt change anything.
So that leaves the bonding melt temp. Feedback reports 255c .
Before the E3D, I never went over 230c w/ ABS, so it seems suspicious.
My 60yo Simpson thermometer wont zero. DOA.
Ill have to do temperature test prints.

DaV1.0  10/13
Repetier FW 0.92, Solidify3D

10

Re: Walls Breaking

I currently don't print abs over 230
what thermistor table are you using. it should be table 5

11 (edited by knucklbustr 2016-03-09 02:13:20)

Re: Walls Breaking

mark.burton wrote:

I currently don't print abs over 230
what thermistor table are you using. it should be table 5

Is this it, in configuration.h ?


Extruder configuration 

// What type of sensor is used?
// 1 is 100k thermistor (Epcos B57560G0107F000 - RepRap-Fab.org and many other)
// 2 is 200k thermistor
// 3 is mendel-parts thermistor (EPCOS G550)
// 4 is 10k thermistor
// 8 is ATC Semitec 104GT-2
// 5 is userdefined thermistor table 0
// 6 is userdefined thermistor table 1
// 7 is userdefined thermistor table 2
// 50 is userdefined thermistor table 0 for PTC thermistors
// 51 is userdefined thermistor table 0 for PTC thermistors
// 52 is userdefined thermistor table 0 for PTC thermistors
// 60 is AD8494, AD8495, AD8496 or AD8497 (5mV/degC and 1/4 the price of AD595 but only MSOT_08 package)
// 97 Generic thermistor table 1
// 98 Generic thermistor table 2
// 99 Generic thermistor table 3
// 100 is AD595
// 101 is MAX6675
// 102 is MAX31855
#define EXT0_TEMPSENSOR_TYPE 5
// Analog input pin for reading temperatures or pin enabling SS for MAX6675
#define EXT0_TEMPSENSOR_PIN TEMP_0_PIN
// Which pin enables the heater

DaV1.0  10/13
Repetier FW 0.92, Solidify3D

12 (edited by jagowilson 2016-03-09 04:46:02)

Re: Walls Breaking

knucklbustr wrote:

.8, so that 2. (.4 nozzle)
1.2 would be 3

Before I go insane, need to eliminate possible hardware issues.
This could be classic de-lamination. Slowing speeds doesnt change anything.
So that leaves the bonding melt temp. Feedback reports 255c .
Before the E3D, I never went over 230c w/ ABS, so it seems suspicious.
My 60yo Simpson thermometer wont zero. DOA.
Ill have to do temperature test prints.

You should definitely fix that, you should be able to print ABS as low as 230c on an E3D, if not lower.

BUT, even if you do fix this, it will not solve your problem. As others have pointed out, this is entirely an issue with your design. FYI, even if you were injection molding this thing, it would still be incredibly flimsy and break easily, because the design is not suitable for plastic.

You only have a few ways you can resolve this.

1) Use ribs, as IronMan suggested
2) Fillet the walls on the inside or the outside. It doesn't matter which you choose, it's entirely dependent on your application.
3) Print the parts as separate pieces and acetone them together or bolt them together. Acetone will create a chemical bond between the two parts that is much stronger than a printed part by itself. Bolts will do the same. Acetone is the ideal glue for ABS, there's no need to use any other material for bonding ABS together.

This isn't a problem with your machine. You're simply not designing for the materials you intend to use. In general, with printed plastics, you should avoid sharp 90 degree angles where there are thin walls and/or no internal material. Additionally you should avoid harsh 90 degree angles between the XY plane and Z. When I was first starting out I found it very useful to observe how plastic things around the house were designed. One thing you will notice almost universally is that there are no harsh angles in most plastic products. They're simply too easy to break.

Here is a guide I found useful when I was first learning to design for 3D printing:
https://www.stratasysdirect.com/resourc … -modeling/

13

Re: Walls Breaking

yes that is where you define the table

14

Re: Walls Breaking

Did some wall test prints.
Model - .093"x 3" x2"

Extrude temp 255c - 40mm/s speed- .3 layer-.8 shell thickness- 50% infill- measured part thickness .093"
Hard to break
Extrude temp 260c - 40mm/s speed- .3 layer-.8 shell thickness- 50% infill- measured part thickness .094"
Harder to break
Extrude temp 255c - 40mm/s speed- .3 layer- 50% infill- 1.2 shell thickness- - measured part thickness .1010"
Can not break. Thickness out of spec. Oozing or too hot at ends.
http://soliforum.com/i/?dGBQtvp.jpg

DaV1.0  10/13
Repetier FW 0.92, Solidify3D

15

Re: Walls Breaking

Can you upload the original stl model?

16

Re: Walls Breaking

mark.burton wrote:

yes that is where you define the table

Does this show it is using table 5 ?  Where is it defined ?
#define EXT0_TEMPSENSOR_TYPE 5

Probably no reason I should get involved unless I have an accurate way of reading the hot end.

DaV1.0  10/13
Repetier FW 0.92, Solidify3D

17

Re: Walls Breaking

evanalmighty wrote:

Can you upload the original stl model?

Test prints are only a thin wall  .093" x 3"L x2"W

Is there something in particular ?

DaV1.0  10/13
Repetier FW 0.92, Solidify3D

18

Re: Walls Breaking

knucklbustr wrote:
mark.burton wrote:

yes that is where you define the table

Does this show it is using table 5 ?  Where is it defined ?
#define EXT0_TEMPSENSOR_TYPE 5

Probably no reason I should get involved unless I have an accurate way of reading the hot end.


yes that is correct...

I would try a print like yours but I am in the middle of a 10 hour .02mm layer 20mm cal cube to see if my machine can do it. Also I would probably make my model different as I would make a a cube that is 76mm by 50.8mm then take away from the inside to achieve the 2.4mm walls.

Honestly it is much easier to use the metric system since most gcode is written based on it in the first place and most printer software is made for it as well. I live in in Dallas Texas and personally do everything now in metric as it is so much easier to scale and manage prints.

Most of us here are used to using it and can relate to dimensions based on it better than imperial measurements. Just saying it would be easier for you.. Only reason I knew your measurements was I used my calipers that can switch between the two.

Printing since 2009 and still love it!
Anycubic 4MAX best $225 ever invested.
Voxelabs Proxima SLA. 6 inch 2k Mono LCD.
Anycubic Predator, massive Delta machine. 450 x 370 print envelope.

19

Re: Walls Breaking

Thats an interesting and different approach. Extrude cut, rather than Extrude boss.
Does the slicer translate the model differently ?

I export STL w/ a somewhat high deviation and tolerance so any round object is smooth.

I have products that are listed combo metric/standard. 76mm w/ a 1.050" bore.
And some customers that send drawings in fractions !
Thought about changing all to metric the other day.
But my inbox would be full from customers ques.
For personal use, try to adjust.

DaV1.0  10/13
Repetier FW 0.92, Solidify3D

20

Re: Walls Breaking

knucklbustr wrote:

Thats an interesting and different approach. Extrude cut, rather than Extrude boss.
Does the slicer translate the model differently ?

I export STL w/ a somewhat high deviation and tolerance so any round object is smooth.

I have products that are listed combo metric/standard. 76mm w/ a 1.050" bore.
And some customers that send drawings in fractions !
Thought about changing all to metric the other day.
But my inbox would be full from customers ques.
For personal use, try to adjust.


If you make a model by making a base then adding walls for the sides the slicer will see those as individual parts and may not slice the interface as structuraly solid as it could be. On wsy around this is to actually sink the walls into the base by a millimeter or more and then the slicer should see them as all one part and not make an interface or weak point between them. The other way is in your cad program is to start solid and remove what you dont need. Tinkercad calls it additive and subtractive modeling.

Printing since 2009 and still love it!
Anycubic 4MAX best $225 ever invested.
Voxelabs Proxima SLA. 6 inch 2k Mono LCD.
Anycubic Predator, massive Delta machine. 450 x 370 print envelope.

21

Re: Walls Breaking

Model of the failed part, not the test walls

22

Re: Walls Breaking

carl_m1968 wrote:

On wsy around this is to actually sink the walls into the base by a millimeter or more and then the slicer should see them as all one part and not make an interface or weak point between them.

Thats how I design my models, for 3D print.

Referring to the above green pics, post 6, all the interfaces are extruded into each other in the modeling prog.
In SW there is also a checkbox, Merge. If unchecked, the model looks like separate pieces.
Ive ran into that prob. in the past and it does make a diff after export and printing. Slicer sees it as diff pieces.

The 1st pic, where that cross brace is, thats where the wall breaks very easily. In modeling, the brace extends into both walls and merged.
Im still thinking this is a slicer prob w/ Cura.  Trying Slic3r see if makes a diff.

DaV1.0  10/13
Repetier FW 0.92, Solidify3D