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Topic: Going to back a way for awhile

Getting very frustrated with the SD2, not it's fault, but the fact that these low cost units can't put out the quality I need. The other factor is consistant output quality.

I ran a gear that had straight teeth and it came out with teeth at 45 degrees??? The drawing shows the teeth at 90 degrees to the plain. Is it shrink, heat, who knows? I've tried a few other items and they also didn't turn out correctly. As I'm a manufacture and not a tinker any more I need to spend my time building things that sell. I'll most likely go back to Shapeways even though the cost is 10 times more. At least I can be assured of the quality of the output.

Thanks for the help here on the Forums. Solidoodle is a good machine and for 1:1 scale type items it does a nice job. But for minature, small scale, items it just isn't the way to go.

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Re: Going to back a way for awhile

Don't fully understand all your issues (and obviously, I think solidoodle is aimed more to the hobbyist than to the industrial manufacturer), but I printed the elliptic gears assembly of thingsuniverse and I was quite impressed with the quality of the teeth (they respect the correct shape for teeth in gears).

The assembly is a little loose, but I'm sure the model needs reworking to get it fully correct.

Again, the parts clearly aren't of commercial moulded plastic quality (appearance, strength, ...) but then , I don't know of many industrial process which can go from STL to complex shaped parts in an hour or two.

I might try to make a small pulley setup with some gears for my kid's toy garage (and to print my first home designed mechanism, this will take a little time to design, but I'm confident it will come out pretty nice and operational).

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Re: Going to back a way for awhile

Irish is trying to print miniature scale parts.  Requires a much more thorough and exact calibration aswell as finer layer height which makes imperfections much easier to notice. 

Irish, don't give up buddy.

4 (edited by ysb 2013-01-23 14:47:00)

Re: Going to back a way for awhile

IMHO, your need is more a FORM1 or a B9 creator or any other resin cure printer than a FDM printer...


B9 creator link

Form 1 link

5 (edited by Irish 2013-01-23 15:56:56)

Re: Going to back a way for awhile

Yes, the Form1 would be an excellent printer for what I'm doing. Issue is return on investment, just not there for a one man company. I wouldn't be selling the printings but using them as master to make molds for casting. Thus it's a four step process, design, print, mold, cast. Each of these steps takes time where the design part takes the most. In order to make a machine like the Form1 pay for itself it needs to be running at least 12-14 hours a day and that's a lot of design time to fill that much print time.

The need for fine detail miniature parts is there but the more detailed you go the more complex the molds get. Again a time issue. All in all there is no way to make money at it which is the reason I'm in the business. [grin] Injection plastic molding still has it hands down over hand casting of complex parts.

I do a lot of work on my laser cutter and design and manufacture quite a few other products and kits. the Detail parts is just one small section but one that could be expanded... possibly.

I'll be back now and then I just need to spend less time than I have been on the SD2. As I said, the Solidoodle 2 is a good machine and with improvements in software it will get better but will never quite meet my real needs. thanks for the help and info.

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Re: Going to back a way for awhile

Form1 is only .3mm resolution though and I hear that the cost of resin is much higher than our ABS. I would think that under certain circumstances the SD2 could create a print of better quality then the Form1.

Irish,
I can try and print that part for you and see if I get the same outcome.  That way we can know if it was a slicing issue or an issue with the stl itself.

7 (edited by DePartedPrinter 2013-01-23 16:48:08)

Re: Going to back a way for awhile

nickythegreek wrote:

Form1 is only .3mm resolution though and I hear that the cost of resin is much higher than our ABS. I would think that under certain circumstances the SD2 could create a print of better quality then the Form1.

Irish,
I can try and print that part for you and see if I get the same outcome.  That way we can know if it was a slicing issue or an issue with the stl itself.


Form 1 has a min layer thickness of 25 microns. That is .025mm

FDM tech cant even come close to touching that.

SD2 with E3D, SD Press, Form 1+
Filastruder
NYLON (taulman): http://www.soliforum.com/topic/466/nylon/

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Re: Going to back a way for awhile

I am able to use my printer around 20 hours a day...I have gone through 8kgs of filament on the original hot-end...only clearing  clogs one time with a guitar wire. 

Try a different slic3r and post the file you are having issues with...a lot of the time it is a crappy file..I personally plan to make a set of dinner bowls from http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:28305 cast with stainless steel, but it is nearly impossible to print because of the way diz make their files...if you look at all of his/her post nobody prints them despite the apparent beauty....a resin print probably could print these though...we can always want more tools even though we can't afford them!!!

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Re: Going to back a way for awhile

nickythegreek wrote:

Form1 is only .3mm resolution though and I hear that the cost of resin is much higher than our ABS. I would think that under certain circumstances the SD2 could create a print of better quality then the Form1.

Irish,
I can try and print that part for you and see if I get the same outcome.  That way we can know if it was a slicing issue or an issue with the stl itself.

Something like $150 for a small batch of the resin. Not sure how much that prints.

Former Solidoodle employee, no longer associated with the company.

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Re: Going to back a way for awhile

jefferysanders wrote:

I personally plan to make a set of dinner bowls from http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:28305 cast with stainless steel, but it is nearly impossible to print because of the way diz make their files

I was unable to slice their files, also.  Frustrating: pretty, but even after cleaning them up, they did not slice reasonably.

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Re: Going to back a way for awhile

jon_bondy wrote:
jefferysanders wrote:

I personally plan to make a set of dinner bowls from http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:28305 cast with stainless steel, but it is nearly impossible to print because of the way diz make their files

I was unable to slice their files, also.  Frustrating: pretty, but even after cleaning them up, they did not slice reasonably.

Sadly, a lot of STL files from higher end modeling programs come with extra trash in them. Sort of like when you make a website with Microsoft Frontpage, and it enters in a bunch of automatic garbly-gook.

Former Solidoodle employee, no longer associated with the company.

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Re: Going to back a way for awhile

solidoodlesupport wrote:
jon_bondy wrote:
jefferysanders wrote:

I personally plan to make a set of dinner bowls from http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:28305 cast with stainless steel, but it is nearly impossible to print because of the way diz make their files

I was unable to slice their files, also.  Frustrating: pretty, but even after cleaning them up, they did not slice reasonably.

Sadly, a lot of STL files from higher end modeling programs come with extra trash in them. Sort of like when you make a website with Microsoft Frontpage, and it enters in a bunch of automatic garbly-gook.

Try different slicing programs.  I have been doing testing, software only as I do t have my machine yet, and the slicing software varies greatly.  Speed and for most parts Slic3r works great, but when Slic3r fails, Skeinforge and Cura work.  Cura is faster than Skeinforge, but doesn't work inside of Retepier, but the Gcode will.  It would be nice if Repetier could add the ability to use any slicing app, but that requires a lot of work.

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Re: Going to back a way for awhile

lotw_1 wrote:
solidoodlesupport wrote:
jon_bondy wrote:

I was unable to slice their files, also.  Frustrating: pretty, but even after cleaning them up, they did not slice reasonably.

Sadly, a lot of STL files from higher end modeling programs come with extra trash in them. Sort of like when you make a website with Microsoft Frontpage, and it enters in a bunch of automatic garbly-gook.

Try different slicing programs.  I have been doing testing, software only as I do t have my machine yet, and the slicing software varies greatly.  Speed and for most parts Slic3r works great, but when Slic3r fails, Skeinforge and Cura work.  Cura is faster than Skeinforge, but doesn't work inside of Retepier, but the Gcode will.  It would be nice if Repetier could add the ability to use any slicing app, but that requires a lot of work.

Nothing is standardized with slicers at the moment.

Former Solidoodle employee, no longer associated with the company.

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Re: Going to back a way for awhile

nickythegreek wrote:

Form1 is only .3mm resolution though and I hear that the cost of resin is much higher than our ABS. I would think that under certain circumstances the SD2 could create a print of better quality then the Form1.

Irish,
I can try and print that part for you and see if I get the same outcome.  That way we can know if it was a slicing issue or an issue with the stl itself.

No, not a slicing issue I feel. It's a material process issue. Fused Filament is like squeezing hot plastic out a toothpaste tube, there's a big differnce than with powdered or micron build up.

Well, as good as it is as a Hobbiest machine, I'd like to see you build the Eifle Tower in the same size they did, form1, with the same detail on an SD2. The two machines are for two different purposes. The SD2 is a real good hobbiest machine where the Form1 is a low end commercial grade machine. In no way am I knocking the SD2 as I feel it's the best for who it's sold to, the home hobbiest. Best value for quality.

I've gone back to buying from Shapeways for now. I need the sharp quality of their high end machines. Don't like the high end prices but I have little choice. I do one drawing and then scale it to multiple scales and have those printed out. These I use for masters for RTV molds to make production masters.

I was able to turn out some really acceptable wooden barrels on the SD2 in two scales. I did 24 of one and 18 of a larger one and those are ready to make into production molds without the intemedate mold. That was my intended purpose using the SD2. But when I tried square/rectangular pieces even in 1:1 scale they were not usable or would need too much work to make them such. All the way it goes. Time is very important to me and taking too long to fix pieces to make the usable is not a good idea cost wise.

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Re: Going to back a way for awhile

Irish wrote:
nickythegreek wrote:

Form1 is only .3mm resolution though and I hear that the cost of resin is much higher than our ABS. I would think that under certain circumstances the SD2 could create a print of better quality then the Form1.

Irish,
I can try and print that part for you and see if I get the same outcome.  That way we can know if it was a slicing issue or an issue with the stl itself.

No, not a slicing issue I feel. It's a material process issue. Fused Filament is like squeezing hot plastic out a toothpaste tube, there's a big differnce than with powdered or micron build up.

Well, as good as it is as a Hobbiest machine, I'd like to see you build the Eifle Tower in the same size they did, form1, with the same detail on an SD2. The two machines are for two different purposes. The SD2 is a real good hobbiest machine where the Form1 is a low end commercial grade machine. In no way am I knocking the SD2 as I feel it's the best for who it's sold to, the home hobbiest. Best value for quality.

I've gone back to buying from Shapeways for now. I need the sharp quality of their high end machines. Don't like the high end prices but I have little choice. I do one drawing and then scale it to multiple scales and have those printed out. These I use for masters for RTV molds to make production masters.

I was able to turn out some really acceptable wooden barrels on the SD2 in two scales. I did 24 of one and 18 of a larger one and those are ready to make into production molds without the intemedate mold. That was my intended purpose using the SD2. But when I tried square/rectangular pieces even in 1:1 scale they were not usable or would need too much work to make them such. All the way it goes. Time is very important to me and taking too long to fix pieces to make the usable is not a good idea cost wise.

Such squares are possible on the Solidoodle with calibration.

Former Solidoodle employee, no longer associated with the company.

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Re: Going to back a way for awhile

Irish wrote:

Issue is return on investment, just not there for a one man company. I wouldn't be selling the printings but using them as master to make molds for casting.

If that's the case, then what about just outsourcing the printing to Shapeways? Means you can't do the rapid same day prototyping, but gives you the quality you need without huge ourlay. You could even prototype with you SD then get the final parts for moulding from Shapeways.

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Re: Going to back a way for awhile

walshy002000 wrote:
Irish wrote:

Issue is return on investment, just not there for a one man company. I wouldn't be selling the printings but using them as master to make molds for casting.

If that's the case, then what about just outsourcing the printing to Shapeways? Means you can't do the rapid same day prototyping, but gives you the quality you need without huge ourlay. You could even prototype with you SD then get the final parts for moulding from Shapeways.

This is a good point.

Former Solidoodle employee, no longer associated with the company.

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Re: Going to back a way for awhile

solidoodlesupport wrote:
walshy002000 wrote:
Irish wrote:

Issue is return on investment, just not there for a one man company. I wouldn't be selling the printings but using them as master to make molds for casting.

If that's the case, then what about just outsourcing the printing to Shapeways? Means you can't do the rapid same day prototyping, but gives you the quality you need without huge ourlay. You could even prototype with you SD then get the final parts for moulding from Shapeways.

This is a good point.

Have you priced anything through Shapeways? I just ordered four items, 3 are scale steel drums 5/16" diam. by 1/2" high and a flat rectangle piece with grooves in it that measures 1-1/2" wide by 4-1/2" long by 1/4" thick.... $56.00 for the lot. Won't take much at that rate to buy a Form1 I feel. Just need to convince the wife of it. [grin] Every order I've done with them has been at that price. Most are FUD, their most expensive but also the parts were hollow to reduce volume. This last the drums where FUD and not hollow and the rectanular piece was Sandstone which is far less expensive.

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Re: Going to back a way for awhile

Remember to investigate whether resin printers have suitable structural properties for your needs.  Also you want to calculate the volume cost, as resin is somewhat appreciably more expensive than ABS

20 (edited by Irish 2013-02-01 19:10:56)

Re: Going to back a way for awhile

Tomek wrote:

Remember to investigate whether resin printers have suitable structural properties for your needs.  Also you want to calculate the volume cost, as resin is somewhat appreciably more expensive than ABS

Problem is the ABS printers can't provide the quality and fine detail that I need, that simple. As far as hobby 3D printers go the SD2 is at the top of the list for value = performance.

You need to read the rest of this thread to understand I work in scale minatures. A wooden barrel in 1:87 scale 5/8" high by 1/4" in diameter with detail showing the staves and bands. I need wall thicknesses of 1/32" on many pieces. There's no way you're going to do that fine with most ABS filament printers. I've seen some nice work from some but it took days to get it. That's not logical if you are in business. Resin is far cheaper than the FUD that Shapesways uses.

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Re: Going to back a way for awhile

There are printers that can handle abs prints at .02mm.

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Re: Going to back a way for awhile

nickythegreek wrote:

There are printers that can handle abs prints at .02mm.

I wasn't aware of that.

Former Solidoodle employee, no longer associated with the company.

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Re: Going to back a way for awhile

nickythegreek wrote:

There are printers that can handle abs prints at .02mm.

Which ones? I've seen some real fine work done on a Replicator (kit) unit but it took him quite a bit to accomplish that. Lots and lots of tries. He sent me small buckets with .028" wall thickness.

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Re: Going to back a way for awhile

.028" inches?  That's .71mm.  Everyone here could send you a bucket with .016" on the day they get their printer.

I presume you mean .028mm if you're bragging on it.   

http://solidoodletips.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/photo-103.jpg

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Re: Going to back a way for awhile

cmetzel wrote:

.028" inches?  That's .71mm.  Everyone here could send you a bucket with .016" on the day they get their printer.

I presume you mean .028mm if you're bragging on it.   

http://solidoodletips.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/photo-103.jpg

I'm sure that's what he meant

Former Solidoodle employee, no longer associated with the company.