1 (edited by ryan-mm85 2015-10-06 13:01:41)

Topic: ball screws or lead screws

why don't we use these on x and y axis?

2

Re: ball screws or lead screws

ryan-mm85 wrote:

why don't we use these on x and y axis?

They are too slow would be the biggest reason I would not use them. Most steppers are not capable of turning fast enough to turn such screws at a high enough speed for those axis.

Printing since 2009 and still love it!
Anycubic 4MAX best $225 ever invested.
Voxelabs Proxima SLA. 6 inch 2k Mono LCD.
Anycubic Predator, massive Delta machine. 450 x 370 print envelope.

3 (edited by grob 2015-10-01 00:48:45)

Re: ball screws or lead screws

I've been planning a second printer, and am actually torn between belts and core-xy (which maximises speed) or running screws.

* A 20t GT2 belt will be 40mm/rev.
* TR8x8 (4-start 2mm pitch) leadscrews used by prusas for the z axis are available, and are 8mm/rev.
* 1204 ballscrews can be found on aliexpress for not much money - these are 4mm/rev but have the advantage of low friction and negligible backlash
* Dodgy M8 thread from the hardware store is 1.25mm/rev

If you want to run your machine at 100mm/sec (which is probably as fast as I'd really like to print, but maybe you might disagree) then:
* belts = 150RPM
* TR8x8 = 750RPM
* ballscrew = 1500RPM
* M8 thread = 4000 RPM

Now carl is right in that it's common practice to assume that typical printer stepper motors pack it in at 1000RPM - but this assumes you're running at 12V. If you up the voltage to 24V, or better still 30 or even 36V, the torque curve at high speeds gets a whole lot better, and speeds of up to 2000RPM should be achievable in a reasonably low-friction system (e.g. ballscrews... see where this is headed... wink).

The regular threaded rod would be pretty useless.

What you will probably lose is acceleration: the limitation becomes the intertia of the motor rather than the weight of the carriage.

Steprates (limited by controllers, particularly the 8-bit arduino variety) can be kept in check by reducing microstepping on the drivers. This would bring both steprates and resolution back to comparable with the belt (e.g. 2x ustep on 4mm/rev would give a resolution of 0.01mm and steprate at 100mm/s of 10kHz, while 16x ustep on 40mm/rev (typical of belt setups) would be 0.0125mm and 8kHz). Using a faster controller (e.g. smoothieboard, azteeg x5, etc. with their 32-bit 72MHz+ LPC's) is now always an option.

Another thing preventing wider uptake is probably the cost, and also the design and assembly/alignment/maintenance required to get them to work well - a badly done leadscrew arrangement will be barely functional (think solidoodle z axis... urghhhh). We're not all toolmakers/engineers (and neither are half the 3d printer manufacturers).

tl;dr
I agree they're slower, but "too slow" - I'm not so sure about that.

SD3. Mk2b + glass, heated enclosure, GT2 belts, direct drive y shaft, linear bearings, bowden-feed E3D v5 w/ 0.9° stepper
Smoothieboard via Octoprint on RPi

4

Re: ball screws or lead screws

grob wrote:

Now carl is right in that it's common practice to assume that typical printer stepper motors pack it in at 1000RPM - but this assumes you're running at 12V. If you up the voltage to 24V, or better still 30 or even 36V, the torque curve at high speeds gets a whole lot better, and speeds of up to 2000RPM should be achievable in a reasonably low-friction system (e.g. ballscrews... see where this is headed... wink).

You mentioned this before in one of my threads, and I can understand that concept behind it, but...

... I think I need some guidance here, since I lack the knowledge.  I can probably find a 24V PSU without any problems, but how does one supply 24V voltage to the steppers through the existing drivers and boards. 

I'm pretty sure that if I feed 24VDC to my RAMPS board, it will probably start to smoke.  Do I need a different board, do I need some kind of voltage up-converter, different stepper motors capable of 24V operation?

Any schematics, or wiring hints would be appreciated.

To print or, 3D print, that is the question...
SD3 printer w/too many mods,  Printrbot Simple Maker Ed.,  FormLabs Form 1+
AnyCubic Photon, Shining 3D EinScan-S & Atlas 3D scanners...
...and too much time on my hands.

5

Re: ball screws or lead screws

It depends on your board. My Azteeg X3 Pro for example has seperate power inputs for the logic, the steppers, and the bed all rated at 12 to 30 volts independent of each other. Other boards like RAMPS have two inputs but they are just parallel on the board and not seperate.

Printing since 2009 and still love it!
Anycubic 4MAX best $225 ever invested.
Voxelabs Proxima SLA. 6 inch 2k Mono LCD.
Anycubic Predator, massive Delta machine. 450 x 370 print envelope.

6

Re: ball screws or lead screws

Agreed - there are two inputs on ramps, one for the bed and one for everything else.
The everything else input includes:
* Steppers
* Fan and extruder mosfets
* Input to arduino mega

These all have their own max ratings, and then the fuses and filter caps are also limited (usually) to save cost & space.

http://reprap.org/wiki/RAMPS_1.4#Maximum_Input_Voltage

So RAMPS is really no dice for more than 12V, officially and in reality, unless you get quite detailed into modifying it.
Personally, I'd provide a motor-only power supply, and pull the power pins out of the pololu modules and wire straight up to them.

RUMBA is designed to accept up to 35V into main power - you'll only end up with the two HE mosfets running at the higher voltage (HB has it's own power, and fans can be jumpered to run from the 12V regulator).

http://reprap.org/wiki/RUMBA#Features

The smoothieboard is fairly similar to the rumba - you can run main power at a higher voltage, but there's some jumpering and alternative supplies to be dealt with (no 12V regulator built in - only an optional 5V for the controller power).

I suspect as carl mentions the azteeg x3 pro has quite a good arrangement, can't get at the schematic right now though.

SD3. Mk2b + glass, heated enclosure, GT2 belts, direct drive y shaft, linear bearings, bowden-feed E3D v5 w/ 0.9° stepper
Smoothieboard via Octoprint on RPi

7

Re: ball screws or lead screws

grob wrote:

Agreed - there are two inputs on ramps, one for the bed and one for everything else.
The everything else input includes:
* Steppers
* Fan and extruder mosfets
* Input to arduino mega

These all have their own max ratings, and then the fuses and filter caps are also limited (usually) to save cost & space.

http://reprap.org/wiki/RAMPS_1.4#Maximum_Input_Voltage

So RAMPS is really no dice for more than 12V, officially and in reality, unless you get quite detailed into modifying it.
Personally, I'd provide a motor-only power supply, and pull the power pins out of the pololu modules and wire straight up to them.

RUMBA is designed to accept up to 35V into main power - you'll only end up with the two HE mosfets running at the higher voltage (HB has it's own power, and fans can be jumpered to run from the 12V regulator).

http://reprap.org/wiki/RUMBA#Features

The smoothieboard is fairly similar to the rumba - you can run main power at a higher voltage, but there's some jumpering and alternative supplies to be dealt with (no 12V regulator built in - only an optional 5V for the controller power).

I suspect as carl mentions the azteeg x3 pro has quite a good arrangement, can't get at the schematic right now though.

To view the schematic for the Azteeg you need Diptrace installed which is actually a very nice PCB design suite for free. Roy for some reason made the schematic in a format only that program will read. Maybe I will do some screen caps of the three pages.

Printing since 2009 and still love it!
Anycubic 4MAX best $225 ever invested.
Voxelabs Proxima SLA. 6 inch 2k Mono LCD.
Anycubic Predator, massive Delta machine. 450 x 370 print envelope.

8 (edited by pirvan 2015-10-01 14:16:53)

Re: ball screws or lead screws

grob wrote:

Personally, I'd provide a motor-only power supply, and pull the power pins out of the pololu modules and wire straight up to them.

So you're saying that I should disconnect the Vmot pin (and associated Ground)  from the socket and wire a 24V source directly to it, right? 

I guess I'll also need a 100uF cap.  I'll probably end up making a customized palolu with separate motor power input socket.

http://www.soliforum.com/misc.php?action=pun_attachment&item=9229



Would you drive any of the other motors @ 24V, or just the X&Y?

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To print or, 3D print, that is the question...
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9 (edited by grob 2015-10-02 03:39:36)

Re: ball screws or lead screws

pirvan wrote:
grob wrote:

Personally, I'd provide a motor-only power supply, and pull the power pins out of the pololu modules and wire straight up to them.

So you're saying that I should disconnect the Vmot pin (and associated Ground)  from the socket and wire a 24V source directly to it, right? 

I guess I'll also need a 100uF cap.  I'll probably end up making a customized palolu with separate motor power input socket.

*image*


Would you drive any of the other motors @ 24V, or just the X&Y?

That's more or less the idea right there.

* 100uF cap should ideally be per driver, and close to the pin as you can get it. Voltage rating should be well above the VMOT voltage (35V and 50V caps are common - if you're doing 24V, either is fine).

* Ground should be shared, and shared well!! Tie the -ve terminals of the power supplies together ideally, and leave all the pololu ground connections as they are (ground path will then be back through the RAMPS and to the main PSU, as per normal). You only need to modify and hook up the VMOT pin to the 24V +ve. I think the pololu modules share ground anyway, so trying to do anything sneaky is most likely going to make more noise.

* Do it to any motor that might need more torque at speed - X and Y certainly, but you might want to do Z if you have a fine Z thread and want to drive it faster, and E if you want slightly faster retraction on the extruder. Basically it might be helpful if the motor ever moves over 500RPM or so, under that there's not much point! smile

SD3. Mk2b + glass, heated enclosure, GT2 belts, direct drive y shaft, linear bearings, bowden-feed E3D v5 w/ 0.9° stepper
Smoothieboard via Octoprint on RPi

10 (edited by pirvan 2015-10-02 15:18:12)

Re: ball screws or lead screws

Got it, pull only the VMot pin off, and add the cap right at the pins.

The only thing I'd like to find is a PSU that can output both the 12V and the 24V.  It would look a lot cleaner that having 2 separate PSUs.

What about a Step-up transformer?  Something like a 12V in 24V out?  How much power do the steppers need (amps)? The PSU I set aside for the printer is a 850W, so there's plenty of power to go around.

Something like this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-DC-Boost-Con … 2a462dd416

To print or, 3D print, that is the question...
SD3 printer w/too many mods,  Printrbot Simple Maker Ed.,  FormLabs Form 1+
AnyCubic Photon, Shining 3D EinScan-S & Atlas 3D scanners...
...and too much time on my hands.

11 (edited by grob 2015-10-06 05:15:46)

Re: ball screws or lead screws

Not a bad idea - a bit less efficient than a second PSU potentially, but not that we really notice.

I'd guess that for each motor:
* The peak power is the motor driver current (maximally say, 2A) at the supply voltage (24V in this case): so P = V * I = 48W.
* The stationary power is the driver current through the winding resistance (e.g. 1.3ohm for this motor), so P = I^2 * R = 5.2W.
* The average working power will be somewhere in between those two. This could be estimated by measuring the supply current while printing I suppose - of course that would involve building it first haha.

The item you picked, at what looks like from the description to be 90W continuous and 150W peak, looks good for at least 2-3 motors IMO, with some careful experimentation you might be able to get away with more or a smaller converter. Especially if you stick to doing just the X/Y to start with can't see what would be wrong with it.

EDIT: above is probably wrong - see below

This is all very theoretical, I'm kind of relying on you to try all this out and see how it goes!! smile

SD3. Mk2b + glass, heated enclosure, GT2 belts, direct drive y shaft, linear bearings, bowden-feed E3D v5 w/ 0.9° stepper
Smoothieboard via Octoprint on RPi

12

Re: ball screws or lead screws

grob wrote:

I'd guess that for each motor:
* The peak power is the motor driver current (maximally say, 2A) at the supply voltage (24V in this case): so P = V * I = 48W.
* The stationary power is the driver current through the winding resistance (e.g. 1.3ohm for this motor), so P = I^2 * R = 5.2W.
* The average working power will be somewhere in between those two. This could be estimated by measuring the supply current while printing I suppose - of course that would involve building it first haha.

Actually stepper motors are constant power devices at low speed, and due to their inductance draw even less current at high speed. Your P = I^2 * R is the upper limit for current draw, per motor.

13

Re: ball screws or lead screws

Hmm... Have to think about this a bit more. I think Tim is right ^^ refer to above.
Thanks. smile

SD3. Mk2b + glass, heated enclosure, GT2 belts, direct drive y shaft, linear bearings, bowden-feed E3D v5 w/ 0.9° stepper
Smoothieboard via Octoprint on RPi