1 Topic by Antonious (edited by Antonious 2015-09-29 11:18:37)

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Topic: Trying to clarify myself with PLA+Da Vinci 1.0A topic

I've done in this forum some search about using PLA on Da Vinci 1.0A. It seems that the printer can deal well with XYZ PLA but not with other ones, but at the same time some user states that when resetting XYZ cartridges he uses any PLA without any modded extruder. However, other people say just through a extruder sink mod is possible using any PLA and this seems to be a more common opinion.

My printer, 1.0A, is working with Repetier firm, can I use PLA from different brand than XYZ without any modification over the extruder or fan?

One thing I don't understand very well is about the extruder and feed tube which have to be extra cooled (mod) because the high temperatures needed by nonXYZ PLAs... ok, but if the printer also works with ABS filament that requires higher temperatures than any PLA and there isn't need to any mod... there's something doesn't fit in to me.

I'm interested in working with PLA to experiment differences with ABS. Just a few prints done with ABS and quite satisfied about the ease for sanding, filing or cutting, as well as the touch and sound (yes, sound when hitting, I like hard plastics).

2 Reply by mozzieblue

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Re: Trying to clarify myself with PLA+Da Vinci 1.0A topic

I can only say that my 1.0a works great with PLA (not XYZ). 190c/0c temperature. I have just finished a 6 hour print with PLA and it works fine. The only problem is with smaller parts with square edges and pointed bits (at speed). It seems (to me) that the inside of the printer just gets too hot but apart from on a few parts PLA works fine.

The pic is of a printer test. Printed with 0c bed and the extruder at 190c. 0.1mm layer hight and a speed of 45mm/s

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3 Reply by Antonious

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Re: Trying to clarify myself with PLA+Da Vinci 1.0A topic

mozzieblue wrote:

I can only say that my 1.0a works great with PLA (not XYZ). 190c/0c temperature. I have just finished a 6 hour print with PLA and it works fine. The only problem is with smaller parts with square edges and pointed bits (at speed). It seems (to me) that the inside of the printer just gets too hot but apart from on a few parts PLA works fine.

The pic is of a printer test. Printed with 0c bed and the extruder at 190c. 0.1mm layer hight and a speed of 45mm/s

So that, have the bed to keep the environmental temperature when working with PLA?

4 Reply by mozzieblue

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Re: Trying to clarify myself with PLA+Da Vinci 1.0A topic

Antonious wrote:

So that, have the bed to keep the environmental temperature when working with PLA?

It would seem so.

5 Reply by mark.burton (edited by mark.burton 2015-09-30 03:16:58)

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Re: Trying to clarify myself with PLA+Da Vinci 1.0A topic

There are few things here you are not considering

First is that PLA and ABS are two different types of plastic and do not react the same way.

PLA swells when heated ( I am not sure that ABS does, but if it does it I does so at a different (higher) temp then PLA which means its not as sensitive to the build up of waste heat in the heat break that you get over a long print)
It is this swelling of the filament that causes the jam in the hot end.

What usually happens is as your hot end heats up over time the waste heat builds up cold portion of the heat break. Often this  portion is called the cold end. As this temperature rises  in the cold end the PLA starts heating up before it gets to the hot end where it is supposed to melt, and as it heats up it swells and jams. Note there can be other reasons it jams to but this is the main one.

The other hot ends have better heat management for the cold end of the heat break. This is usually just a bigger heat sink but can also be non stick coatings that can help reduce some friction in the heat break when it swells like ptfe, and increased airflow over the heat sink. 

Note that the reduction of friction is also why passing the filament through a cleaning sponge that was soaked in vegetable oil so that a slight coating of oil is left on the filament will also help to keep the filament from sticking. However if it swells to much you will still get a jam.

Adding additional heat sinks and modifying the airflow over the heat break allows for the waste heat that would normally move up the heat break to be dissipated quicker so you don't get the heat creeping up the heat break over time and cause the swelling and jamming of the filament in a area that isn't designed for that to happen.

Another thing is that heat moves from hot to cold, and transfer faster the greater the difference. So this means that since there is a greater difference between the air temp that is moving across the heat sink on heat break when printing with abs then when printing pla, since abs is printing at 210 and pla is 190., the heat sink will move a larger percentage of that additional waste heat into the air when it is hotter (abs) then it does when its colder (pla).

So to print with pla we need to remove a larger percentage of the waste heat.  To increase the percentage of waste heat being removed you need to do one of the following options:

A. Increase the airflow over the heat sink so that more of the waste heat is transferred away to the increased air flow.

B. Increase the size of the heat sink so that you have a greater surface area transferring more waste heat to a larger volume of air.

C. Do both A and B.

In effect by increasing the total amount of waste heat that you can remove from the system you keep that waste heat from being transferred into the filament, thus keeping it from swelling prematurely.

Hopefully that clears it up for you

6 Reply by carl_m1968

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Re: Trying to clarify myself with PLA+Da Vinci 1.0A topic

There is also some more confusion to add here as many of you where not around as the very first 1.0 came out and then the later models. The first model was a 1.0 and could not be used for PLA unless modded.


Then they came out with a 1.0A which was simply a newer model of the 1.0 that had a different motherboard. Still was not able to print PLA.

Next came the real 1.0A that could print PLA but needed to be their brand.

Then of course came the other models like the 2.0, the Aio, the plus and so on.

The issue is though some have a 1.0A that is actually a 1.0 while some have a 10A that is a true 1.0A and there is no way to tell them apart. In fact for a while stores where selling the 1.0a as a 1.0 because nobody knew the difference.

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7 Reply by scobo (edited by scobo 2015-10-04 11:04:52)

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Re: Trying to clarify myself with PLA+Da Vinci 1.0A topic

I've posted quite a bit about using additional heatsinks to print PLA but here's a summary of my experience so far.
I added a couple of small heatsinks located either side of the feedtube and moved the fan lower so it blows directly across the feedtube.

http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac28/scobodon/94d159b3869f42d6dfe9366e1f0b1947_zps21irlktr.jpg

I recently removed the 2 heatsinks furthest from the tube and the mod still works.
I've been able to print PLA great plus all the types of filament in my signature.
This is an extremly quick and easy mod but it makes a huge difference to how well the Da Vinci copes with other filament types.
Mark is dead right, PLA is prone to swelling within the feedtube just above the nozzle so the key is preventing heat-creep by focusing cooling around this area.
I find I need to increase my extruder temp for both ABS and PLA to 225°C to get the best results.

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8 Reply by Antonious

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Re: Trying to clarify myself with PLA+Da Vinci 1.0A topic

mark.burton wrote:

There are few things here you are not considering

First is that PLA and ABS are two different types of plastic and do not react the same way.

PLA swells when heated ( I am not sure that ABS does, but if it does it I does so at a different (higher) temp then PLA which means its not as sensitive to the build up of waste heat in the heat break that you get over a long print)
It is this swelling of the filament that causes the jam in the hot end.

What usually happens is as your hot end heats up over time the waste heat builds up cold portion of the heat break. Often this  portion is called the cold end. As this temperature rises  in the cold end the PLA starts heating up before it gets to the hot end where it is supposed to melt, and as it heats up it swells and jams. Note there can be other reasons it jams to but this is the main one.

The other hot ends have better heat management for the cold end of the heat break. This is usually just a bigger heat sink but can also be non stick coatings that can help reduce some friction in the heat break when it swells like ptfe, and increased airflow over the heat sink. 

Note that the reduction of friction is also why passing the filament through a cleaning sponge that was soaked in vegetable oil so that a slight coating of oil is left on the filament will also help to keep the filament from sticking. However if it swells to much you will still get a jam.

Adding additional heat sinks and modifying the airflow over the heat break allows for the waste heat that would normally move up the heat break to be dissipated quicker so you don't get the heat creeping up the heat break over time and cause the swelling and jamming of the filament in a area that isn't designed for that to happen.

Another thing is that heat moves from hot to cold, and transfer faster the greater the difference. So this means that since there is a greater difference between the air temp that is moving across the heat sink on heat break when printing with abs then when printing pla, since abs is printing at 210 and pla is 190., the heat sink will move a larger percentage of that additional waste heat into the air when it is hotter (abs) then it does when its colder (pla).

So to print with pla we need to remove a larger percentage of the waste heat.  To increase the percentage of waste heat being removed you need to do one of the following options:

A. Increase the airflow over the heat sink so that more of the waste heat is transferred away to the increased air flow.

B. Increase the size of the heat sink so that you have a greater surface area transferring more waste heat to a larger volume of air.

C. Do both A and B.

In effect by increasing the total amount of waste heat that you can remove from the system you keep that waste heat from being transferred into the filament, thus keeping it from swelling prematurely.

Hopefully that clears it up for you

Very, very instructive post. That was the key for my initial disorientation, the different behaviour between PLA and ABS on swelling. I understand this issue now. Thanks a lot.

9 Reply by Antonious (edited by Antonious 2015-09-30 11:10:59)

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Re: Trying to clarify myself with PLA+Da Vinci 1.0A topic

carl_m1968 wrote:

There is also some more confusion to add here as many of you where not around as the very first 1.0 came out and then the later models. The first model was a 1.0 and could not be used for PLA unless modded.


Then they came out with a 1.0A which was simply a newer model of the 1.0 that had a different motherboard. Still was not able to print PLA.

Next came the real 1.0A that could print PLA but needed to be their brand.

Then of course came the other models like the 2.0, the Aio, the plus and so on.

The issue is though some have a 1.0A that is actually a 1.0 while some have a 10A that is a true 1.0A and there is no way to tell them apart. In fact for a while stores where selling the 1.0a as a 1.0 because nobody knew the difference.

So, no way to differentiate the two 1.0A?

How do you explain that some users say their 1.0A is printing, without hardware mod, with PLA different from the XYZ one?

Thanks.

10 Reply by Antonious (edited by Antonious 2015-09-30 09:22:42)

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Re: Trying to clarify myself with PLA+Da Vinci 1.0A topic

scobo wrote:

I've posted quite a bit about using additional heatsinks to print PLA but here's a summary of my experience so far.
I added a couple of small heatsinks located either side of the feedtube and moved the fan lower so it blows directly across the feedtube.

http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac28/scobodon/94d159b3869f42d6dfe9366e1f0b1947_zps21irlktr.jpg

I recently removed the 2 heatsinks furthest from the tube and the mod still works.
I've been able to print PLA great plus all the types of filament in my signature.
This is an extremly quick and easy mod but it makes a huge difference to how well the Da Vinci copes with other filament types.
Mark is dead right, PLA is prone to swelling within the feedtube just above the nozzle so the key is preventing heat-creep by focusing cooling around this area.
I find I need to increase my extruder temp for both ABS and PLA to 230°C to get the best results.

Why did you move the heatsinks? Where did you move them? (As I see in the picture there isn't much space to move away the heatsinks)
Are the heatsinks pasted with termal silicone?
Is it easy to move the fan?
Could you confirm that you are printing ABS and PLA at the same extruder temperature (230º)? What about bed temperature for PLA?

Thank you.

11 Reply by Antonious

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Re: Trying to clarify myself with PLA+Da Vinci 1.0A topic

In my opinion the issue of using different plastics than ABS by Da Vinci 1.0 and 1.0A printers is a crucial question for every user, so I suggest a sticky thread to include explanations about the "difficulties" of using PLA (and other materials), the hardware limitations, the hardware mods and so, like the ones included in these previous posts.

12 Reply by scobo (edited by scobo 2015-10-04 11:04:16)

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Re: Trying to clarify myself with PLA+Da Vinci 1.0A topic

I took off the 4 small heatsinks in order to try a single larger heatsink which didn't work.
I put back just 2 of the small heatsinks out of curiosity and I can still print all the other filament types no problem. I guess 4 heatsinks was overkill.
So I still have 2 of the heatsinks shown in the picture positioned right next to the feedtube as in the picture. The 2 furthest from the tube are not required.
They are held in place with thermal paste.
Moving the fan is very easy, just remove the screws, remove the metal bracket then replace the fan as in the picture.
I can confirm that I print ABS and PLA at 225°C and use 60°C bed temp for PLA.
For ABS, I use bed temp of 60°C on small prints but increase this up to 90°C for prints that cover more of the bed.
The only reason I use 60°C for PLA is to save having to re-level the bed when switching filament type.

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13 Reply by Antonious

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Re: Trying to clarify myself with PLA+Da Vinci 1.0A topic

scobo wrote:

I took off the 4 small heatsinks in order to try a single larger heatsink which didn't work.
I put back just 2 of the small heatsinks out of curiosity and I can still print all the other filament types no problem. I guess 4 heatsinks was overkill.
So I still have 2 of the heatsinks shown in the picture positioned right next to the feedtube as in the picture. The 2 furthest from the tube are not required.
They are held in place with thermal paste.
Moving the fan is very easy, just remove the screws, remove the metal bracket then replace the fan as in the picture.
I can confirm that I print ABS and PLA at 230°C and use 60°C bed temp for PLA.
For ABS, I use bed temp of 60°C on small prints but increase this up to 90°C for prints that cover more of the bed.
The only reason I use 60°C for PLA is to save having to re-level the bed when switching filament type.

Ok, all it's clear. Thanks.

14 Reply by Antonious (edited by Antonious 2015-09-30 11:46:01)

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Re: Trying to clarify myself with PLA+Da Vinci 1.0A topic

scobo wrote:

They are held in place with thermal paste.

Is thermal paste that one applied with a little hotend gun or a paste that resists high temperatures?

15 Reply by scobo

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Re: Trying to clarify myself with PLA+Da Vinci 1.0A topic

This stuff ..... http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/191248619347? … EBIDX%3AIT

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16 Reply by mozzieblue

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Re: Trying to clarify myself with PLA+Da Vinci 1.0A topic

XYZ's website says their PLA prints at 190 (I assume this is correct). The third party stuff I have been using prints at 180-190 so there shouldn't be a problem. I am just about to finish a 28 hour 8 part project. The longest print time was 6 and half hours. I didn't have a single jam or problem after I figured out the settings and a few other things. After 5 or 6 false starts it went well. So it can be done.

17 Reply by scobo

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Re: Trying to clarify myself with PLA+Da Vinci 1.0A topic

Strangely enough, I also finished a 6 hour print last night.
So yes, with the right mod and extruder temp, a stock Da Vinci extruder can print PLA no problem.

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18 Reply by mozzieblue

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Re: Trying to clarify myself with PLA+Da Vinci 1.0A topic

scobo wrote:

Strangely enough, I also finished a 6 hour print last night.
So yes, with the right mod and extruder temp, a stock Da Vinci extruder can print PLA no problem.


My extruder is stock with no mods whatsoever.

19 Reply by scobo (edited by scobo 2015-09-30 15:50:53)

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Re: Trying to clarify myself with PLA+Da Vinci 1.0A topic

mozzieblue wrote:
scobo wrote:

Strangely enough, I also finished a 6 hour print last night.
So yes, with the right mod and extruder temp, a stock Da Vinci extruder can print PLA no problem.


My extruder is stock with no mods whatsoever.

Is it one of newer Da Vincis you have ?
Mine's one of the older 1.0 models, had it just over a year.

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20 Reply by Antonious

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Re: Trying to clarify myself with PLA+Da Vinci 1.0A topic

scobo wrote:

This stuff ..... http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/191248619347? … EBIDX%3AIT

Ok.

21 Reply by mozzieblue

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Re: Trying to clarify myself with PLA+Da Vinci 1.0A topic

scobo wrote:

Is it one of newer Da Vincis you have ?
Mine's one of the older 1.0 models, had it just over a year.

A 1.0a a few months old.

22 Reply by scobo

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Re: Trying to clarify myself with PLA+Da Vinci 1.0A topic

mozzieblue wrote:
scobo wrote:

Is it one of newer Da Vincis you have ?
Mine's one of the older 1.0 models, had it just over a year.

A 1.0a a few months old.

Good to know that the newer models don't require modding then.

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23 Reply by batmaster

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Re: Trying to clarify myself with PLA+Da Vinci 1.0A topic

my stock 1.0a would print some pla, just had issues at really long prints and some colors, since modding mine with a heatsink and moving the fan lower and blowing out i have printed a 15 hours print in pla without issue, never had an issue since in fact.

24 Reply by Antonious

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Re: Trying to clarify myself with PLA+Da Vinci 1.0A topic

batmaster wrote:

my stock 1.0a would print some pla, just had issues at really long prints and some colors, since modding mine with a heatsink and moving the fan lower and blowing out i have printed a 15 hours print in pla without issue, never had an issue since in fact.

Was then your mod the same as the scobo's one?